Every deity level HA rush I've seen on this forum was done with catapults. EVERYTHING works with catapults.
If that's true, it's only because you've missed multiple games where people executed pre-cata HA rushes.
By the way, what's the success rate for prat rushes on deity/normal? Yeah. Also poor.
You know what units DON'T underperform at top difficulties? Quechas, war chariots, and immortals. You can play whatever games you want with unit strength, but the reality is that these units are cheaper and the 2 moves makes a tremendous difference in efficacy, as does the ability to strike sooner (chariots are cheap as a base unit).
The funny thing is that you mention that chariots are obsolete the moment copper is hooked up. Not only does that assertion fail in practice for war chariots, but guess what? Axes beat vultures straight up. Yes, even in the open field. You don't think an immortal or deity AI can get metal by the time you get metal? Certainly, you factored metal into the faster-to-hit chariot scenario...but now you'd rather throw more expensive vultures against 5+ more opposing units (and possibly more, from march time alone) and call it a better situation.
The strength of the war chariot and immortal has shone through on multitudes of HoF games, forum games, etc. Vultures can not and have not put up those same numbers.
I'd put it above those chariots. Spearmen stop them cold. An injured musketman doesn't stop a vulture.
War chariots, longbows, really anything can kill injured units, making such assertions irrelevant. Meanwhile, we get to continually ignore the fact that axes stop vultures cold (you're eating sub 20% odds attacking an axe in a city, and possibly even sub 10% if conditions are bad enough). Not only that, but vultures are 1 move units, and thus will see
more units than any chariot...pretty bad for a unit that costs more
and due to its limited movement vs opposing axes in enemy territory can easily get picked off by axes while the axes carry favorable odds...yep. We'll just ignore THAT
.
The quecha almost doesn't even count.
If someone makes an unqualified statement about the best unit in an era, it all counts. Comically, this "best unit" doesn't even make top 5.
Other than the faster movement, HAs are barely any better than regular axes.
Ouch. No fact checks before we see something objectively AND flagrantly wrong eh
.
Combat I axe vs fully fortified archer in a wall city:
5.5 vs 6.75
Combat II HA vs fully fortified archer in a wall city:
7.2 vs 6.75
Not only are we looking at a huge flip in outcome probability (>30%), but HA has withdrawal chance on top of that and is probably around twice as likely to survive this fight...with much better odds of winning outright too. HA ignore first strikes too, which other units we're discussing do not do (excepting war chariots). But, OK, if you say so around double the success rate is barely better
.
Except HA fight fewer units too due to their ability to take cities before reinforcement...
Walled only marginally by spears due to flanking II and their speed, HA odds trounce axe odds against every other possible early game unit class. The speed on the chariot UUs is indeed why they have proven over the years to be more effective rush units...indeed consistently more effective than prats, let alone the very average vulture which can't even beat its stock version straight up.
BTW, much of the reason you hate on HA (tech delay, longer time to hit, etc) applies to prats too, except they get no move speed compensation and as a result have a very uphill situation against unit spammers.
Which one would be the the most effective against a mixed stack of axes and archers?
Unfortunately there is no easy answer. The extra base str on the vulture varies in utility depending on the amount of defensive bonuses involved. A very axe-heavy garrison might cause even stock chariots to win. If you are looking to keep casualties in
low, horse archers will have a good chance to win out unless the defending army is over half spears lol. Swords are the 2nd best pre-counter unit to attack cities behind horse archers with the 10% city attack and high str, but even a few axes give them problems (and yes, axes in a city with walls DO cause grievous attrition to pratorians. Rush-ending damage on immortal+ if you run into enough axes early on which is very possible given you need to tech IW before starting to build any).
1 axe and 1 archer isn't realistic on high difficulties anyway. How about a comparison against:
2 archers, 2 axes, 1 spear
If using mounted, remove at least 1 axe as a defender (2 movers virtually always face at least 1 fewer unit in practice).
How much
investment is needed to do well against that, if you were to send only 1 of each unit class at it? What is the expected casualty rate of each unit class? I bet your beloved vulture will only marginally outperform stock unit options, and might even lose to some. I also bet war chariots will win out here over them, despite the spear
.
Might get different results with walls, 20%, and 0% defenses too though.
The sad reality for vultures, however, remains. If you put a stack of ancient + classical units into enemy territory, the enemy axes can attack every single unit class you have at favorable with the exception of horse archers. That's right. A stock axe will have good odds against your vulture, any chariots you have (while attacking them), your swords, spears, and archers (to leave behind as garrison post-city capture). You have nothing during the axe rush time window that can block a simple stack of 6-8 axes (or just 4 in a city) from crippling the entire rush forever. How is THAT supposedly not countered by metal then? At least with chariots, you have some mobility to pick battles, but against enemy roads w/ 1 movers you don't even get THAT.