Gallic Warrior, Jaguar or Praetorian?

[bhavv]

If you lack Iron, then Jaguars are the best.

Ive never tried using Guerilla 3 to attack cities, though CR 1-3 works on everything and makes Praets massively powerful.

Regular swords and jaguars / gallics dont have any bonus attack to melee though, so all it takes to destroy them is a city garrisoned with Shock axes.

The second best early game UU after the Preat is actually the Vulture.

 

[bhavv]

The main thing to remember is that Praets are simply OP.

They should have been normal 6 str swords with an innate +25% city attack, or 7 str with the same +10% city attack as normal swords.

Sorry, double post instead of edit, im on my mobile phone so cant fix it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Regular swords and jaguars / gallics dont have any bonus attack to melee though, so all it takes to destroy them is a city garrisoned with Shock axes.

Prats don't have any bonus attack to melee though, so all it takes to destroy them is a city garrisoned with shock axes.

See, isn't that fun?

A shock axe defending a city vs melee with 20% culture would have 105% defenses without factoring fortification, hills, or another 30% boost from walls. At over 10 str, you're easily going to lose the 8 str prat, even with some promos since most opponents can figure out to build walls. Axes cost less than prats, and are available sooner.

The second best early game UU after the Preat is actually the Vulture.

It must be fun to make definitive, unproven statements in the face of massive amounts of evidence to the contrary. However, it doesn't further the discussion to make such statements w/o a drop of supporting argumentative evidence .

I don't see how you can possibly put the vulture ahead of war chariot, immortal, skirmisher, quecha in SP, etc. Speaking of "axes own this".......

The main thing to remember is that Praets are simply OP.

Yay! Another definitive statement that has 0 supporting evidence ever! <3.

What a shame that repeated efforts to prove they have a materially different practical effectiveness when compared to other early UUs have fallen flat each time.

Prats have a hard time outperforming HORSE ARCHERS as a rush unit, let along the other top tier early UUs.

 

[Higher Game]

I don't see how you can possibly put the vulture ahead of war chariot, immortal, skirmisher, quecha in SP, etc. Speaking of "axes own this".......

I'd put it above those chariots. Spearmen stop them cold. An injured musketman doesn't stop a vulture. It's a very good stack unit for a very long time, cheap, early, and good against catapults. The vulture's long life and consistent flexibility make it better than situational units. Plus, bronze working is always a good tech, whereas most other uniques want something that could be a bit "off". Archery, animal husbandry, horseback riding, iron working, hunting, and even the wheel aren't always good picks.

The quecha almost doesn't even count.

 

[bhavv]

I don't see how you can possibly put the vulture ahead of war chariot, immortal, skirmisher, quecha in SP, etc. Speaking of "axes own this".......

LOL are even trying to be serious on this?

All it takes to stop War Chariots / Immortals / Horse Archers is Spearmen, and they obsolete far quicker than Vultures do, as soon as your opponent connects copper, thats it, no more useful UU. And the same goes for Quechas - while tremendously powerful early on, they become useless as soon as your opponent has metal connected. Vultures do not, they remain effective against Longbows and mostly everything up to Macemen. They are also a powerful defense unit too, you can effectively rely on Vultures for both offense and defense for a long time, and they have more survivability than Axes.

Vultures are a 6 STR Axeman, as powerful against Archers as a swordsman, but with retaining a 7.5 attack against melee units. 6 STR with +25% vs Melee is by far more effective than a regular Swordsman!

They also come with Bronze Working, you dont need to waste time researching HBR to get an effective attack unit, nor do you need Iron Working unless you dont have any copper.

Prats don't have any bonus attack to melee though, so all it takes to destroy them is a city garrisoned with shock axes.

Far many more Praets are going to survive in such an attack though, their 8 Strength is better than a normal Axe against melee (7.5), plus they are far more powerful against archery units than axes or swords.

Prats have a hard time outperforming HORSE ARCHERS as a rush unit, let along the other top tier early UUs.

Spearmen make HORSE ARCHERS dead. Simple. Both Preats and Vultures have a far higher shelf life and window of opportunity that lasts far into the mid game. None of the units you mentioned last as long.


Lets do some simple primary school level maths!

Quecha - 2 , +100% vs Melee:

- 4 Attack VS Archers
- 2 Attack VS everything else (useless after metals or horses get connected)

War Chariot - 5

- 5 attack against everything, very useful
- However Spearmen have 8 against them, so War Chariots lose

Immortal - 4 , +50% vs Archery units

- 6 attack vs Archers
- 4 attack vs everything else
- Owned even harder against Spears

Horse Archer - 6

- By the time it takes to research the techs for this, enemies WILL have bronze and Spearmen. Without Catapults its a fail, and HBR is a very expensive tech that slows you down.

Axeman - 6 , +50% vs Melee

- 7.5 attack vs Melee
- 5 attack against everything else

Swordsman / Gallic Warrior - 6 , +10% vs cities

- 6.6 attack vs cities
- Weak against defending Axemen with 7.5 base against melee attacks.

Vulture - 6 , +25% vs Melee

- 7.5 attack vs Melee
- 6 attack vs everything else
- Better than all of the above.

Preatorian - 8

- 8 attack against everything, better than all of the above.

I don't see how you can possibly put the vulture ahead of war chariot, immortal, skirmisher, quecha in SP, etc. Speaking of "axes own this".......

I've tried all of them, and Vultures come out on every time, except against Skirmishers, Bowmen, Dogs or Praets, but the same applies to anything else and the Vulture is still stronger against those than those than most other early units.

 

[Higher Game]

I think you underestimate the horse archer a bit there.

 

[bhavv]

Horse archers are powerful, but HBR is expensive and stops you from researching other crucial techs.

You also need Archery too, so when do you get research BW and any other required worker techs, before or after that?

If you want to carry out a HA rush asap, you have to neglect chops. With Axes / Vultures, you dont need to do that.

Other than the faster movement, HAs are barely any better than regular axes. The only thing that stops an axe rush is longbows. Both longbows and spears stop a HA rush.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Depressing, to see a superior player's advice brushed aside. Just more proof that these forum arguments are more academic than play in practice.

Mounted units, especially ones that come as early as Immortals or WC's, are a unique threat. If you have indeed "tried them all" in a rush scenario you know that the AI is more likely to build axes than spears (same with the human player typically, at least in single player). Pillaging metals might be an option, depending on how entrenched the source is. As always your mileage may vary depending on myriad conditions, which is to say absolute arguments are feeble here.

Your opinion of horse archers is mildly surprising given their popularity and proven utility on these forums. I suppose you despise them because you are ignorant of how to use them effectively? Certainly TMIT has demonstrated their use, spears are a potential threat but a manageable one.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Err... since bonuses are subtracted from the defender that, did anyone know that Vultures are worse against axes? And actually apparently against melee units in general

It's cool to act like one knows everything, but sometimes a few seconds in worldbuilder will prove otherwise

And surely nobody HA rushes on Deity, right guys?

Spoiler Vulture vs Axe, Axe vs Vulture :

 

[bhavv]

Your opinion of horse archers is mildly surprising given their popularity and proven utility on these forums. I suppose you despise them because you are ignorant of how to use them effectively? Certainly TMIT has demonstrated their use, spears are a potential threat but a manageable one.

I didnt dismiss HAs, I simply stated that they are ineffective against both Spears and Longbows. I DESPISE that I need to tech both HBR and Archery to get them, and this requires skipping BW and Writing if I want HAs ASAP.

Every deity level HA rush I've seen on this forum was done with catapults. EVERYTHING works with catapults.

Err... since bonuses are subtracted from the defender that, did anyone know that Vultures are worse against axes?

Oh, thats the second time I've heard that mentioned, and I forgot about it the first time.

Vultures are better against Archers and Longbows that axes and swords, and still more effective against melee than swordsmen.

How exactly do Dogs work then? +100% vs melee subtracted from the defender would make it 0 .

I want a comparison of the following situations:

Defending stack - 1 Axeman and 1 Archer

Attacking stacks:

2 x Axemen
2 x Swordman
2 x Vultures.

Which one would be the the most effective against a mixed stack of axes and archers?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Every deity level HA rush I've seen on this forum was done with catapults. EVERYTHING works with catapults.

If that's true, it's only because you've missed multiple games where people executed pre-cata HA rushes.

By the way, what's the success rate for prat rushes on deity/normal? Yeah. Also poor.

You know what units DON'T underperform at top difficulties? Quechas, war chariots, and immortals. You can play whatever games you want with unit strength, but the reality is that these units are cheaper and the 2 moves makes a tremendous difference in efficacy, as does the ability to strike sooner (chariots are cheap as a base unit).

The funny thing is that you mention that chariots are obsolete the moment copper is hooked up. Not only does that assertion fail in practice for war chariots, but guess what? Axes beat vultures straight up. Yes, even in the open field. You don't think an immortal or deity AI can get metal by the time you get metal? Certainly, you factored metal into the faster-to-hit chariot scenario...but now you'd rather throw more expensive vultures against 5+ more opposing units (and possibly more, from march time alone) and call it a better situation.

The strength of the war chariot and immortal has shone through on multitudes of HoF games, forum games, etc. Vultures can not and have not put up those same numbers.

I'd put it above those chariots. Spearmen stop them cold. An injured musketman doesn't stop a vulture.

War chariots, longbows, really anything can kill injured units, making such assertions irrelevant. Meanwhile, we get to continually ignore the fact that axes stop vultures cold (you're eating sub 20% odds attacking an axe in a city, and possibly even sub 10% if conditions are bad enough). Not only that, but vultures are 1 move units, and thus will see more units than any chariot...pretty bad for a unit that costs more and due to its limited movement vs opposing axes in enemy territory can easily get picked off by axes while the axes carry favorable odds...yep. We'll just ignore THAT .

The quecha almost doesn't even count.

If someone makes an unqualified statement about the best unit in an era, it all counts. Comically, this "best unit" doesn't even make top 5.

Other than the faster movement, HAs are barely any better than regular axes.

Ouch. No fact checks before we see something objectively AND flagrantly wrong eh .

Combat I axe vs fully fortified archer in a wall city:

5.5 vs 6.75

Combat II HA vs fully fortified archer in a wall city:

7.2 vs 6.75

Not only are we looking at a huge flip in outcome probability (>30%), but HA has withdrawal chance on top of that and is probably around twice as likely to survive this fight...with much better odds of winning outright too. HA ignore first strikes too, which other units we're discussing do not do (excepting war chariots). But, OK, if you say so around double the success rate is barely better .

Except HA fight fewer units too due to their ability to take cities before reinforcement...

Walled only marginally by spears due to flanking II and their speed, HA odds trounce axe odds against every other possible early game unit class. The speed on the chariot UUs is indeed why they have proven over the years to be more effective rush units...indeed consistently more effective than prats, let alone the very average vulture which can't even beat its stock version straight up.

BTW, much of the reason you hate on HA (tech delay, longer time to hit, etc) applies to prats too, except they get no move speed compensation and as a result have a very uphill situation against unit spammers.

Which one would be the the most effective against a mixed stack of axes and archers?

Unfortunately there is no easy answer. The extra base str on the vulture varies in utility depending on the amount of defensive bonuses involved. A very axe-heavy garrison might cause even stock chariots to win. If you are looking to keep casualties in low, horse archers will have a good chance to win out unless the defending army is over half spears lol. Swords are the 2nd best pre-counter unit to attack cities behind horse archers with the 10% city attack and high str, but even a few axes give them problems (and yes, axes in a city with walls DO cause grievous attrition to pratorians. Rush-ending damage on immortal+ if you run into enough axes early on which is very possible given you need to tech IW before starting to build any).

1 axe and 1 archer isn't realistic on high difficulties anyway. How about a comparison against:

2 archers, 2 axes, 1 spear

If using mounted, remove at least 1 axe as a defender (2 movers virtually always face at least 1 fewer unit in practice).

How much investment is needed to do well against that, if you were to send only 1 of each unit class at it? What is the expected casualty rate of each unit class? I bet your beloved vulture will only marginally outperform stock unit options, and might even lose to some. I also bet war chariots will win out here over them, despite the spear .

Might get different results with walls, 20%, and 0% defenses too though.

The sad reality for vultures, however, remains. If you put a stack of ancient + classical units into enemy territory, the enemy axes can attack every single unit class you have at favorable with the exception of horse archers. That's right. A stock axe will have good odds against your vulture, any chariots you have (while attacking them), your swords, spears, and archers (to leave behind as garrison post-city capture). You have nothing during the axe rush time window that can block a simple stack of 6-8 axes (or just 4 in a city) from crippling the entire rush forever. How is THAT supposedly not countered by metal then? At least with chariots, you have some mobility to pick battles, but against enemy roads w/ 1 movers you don't even get THAT.

 

[bhavv]

Look at these screenshots, a combat 1 Vulture has higher odds than a combat 1 Axe against a dog soldier:

Spoiler :

Also against a combat 1 dog, a combat 1 Vulture has 31% chance, and a combat 1 axe has a 29% chance. I'm guessing that if you attack a city with CR promoted vultures vs axes, the Vultures are going to have the higher combat odds, I will test this next.

I just had a look when attacking a city with a CR1 Vulture and CR1 Axe:

- Against a Combat 1 + Shock promoted axeman defender, The Vulture has a 28.x% chance, and the Axe has a 29.x chance.
- Against a Combat 1 only Axe, the axeman has a 68% chance, and the vulture a 65% chance (CR beats an axes melee defence significantly, even for a Vulture).
- Against an Archer (unfortified, no promotions but in a city), the Vulture has an 88% chance, but the Axe only has a 71% chance.
- Against a protective Archer (CG1, Drill 1, in a city, unfortified), the Vulture has a 70.9% chance, but the Axe only has a 59.9% chance.

In my conclusion, the Vulture is significantly better for attacking cities with CR promotions, as the difference against defending axes is minuscule, but the difference against archery units is far greater in the Vulture's favour. If you have copper in your capital or second cities BFC, in any normal game you can get Vultures out very fast, just like axes - research mining + BW, conect copper, spam Vultures and give them CR1 from a barracks. The difference when attacking defending axes is minuscule compared to an Axe, but they still work and 2 Vultures will kill 1 Axe most of the time. The difference when attacking Archers is much more significant for the Vulture.

Regarding movement speed of units, by the time you need to use catapults this becomes irrelevant because you need to move your stack at the catapults speed.

 

[vranasm]

given that there is article in "Strategy Articles" about "HA rushes", I say wtf?!

maybe worth a check?

I try to respect every forum poster, but what I see from you bhavv lately...it's a bit too much. Try to read first a bit before overreacting, there is ton of stuff with math around.

you could even check some of AZ videos with HA rushes before stating that HA rush is useless and needs catapults...that is actually one of most ignorant replies (and arrogant at the same time) I ever read here...

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

I don't see why HBR is considered such a diversion ? It can safely be traded to someone that is not a threat without having to worry that they will parlay it into an even more valuable tech (for instance trading alpha) . Once I have worker techs , pottery and writing I'm sweet for quite a while(dependent on the map , mysticism , fishing , iron working are all optional) and AH is conveniently on the path to writing and HBR . A crappy start that at least has some food and horses can be turned around nicely by teching HBR and either settling your first scientist or bulbing maths to ramp up a horse archer rush .

 

[Iranon]

Against melee units, Vultures outperform Axemen if other bonuses (discounting Combat on the attacker) are greater than 0% in their favour (6+25% = 5+50%) or greater than 75% against them (6/1.5 = 5/1.25).

This is before native bonuses to the opponent. Against Axes, Vultures will need to be more than 50% ahead in non-native modifiers or more than 25% behind in order to be an asset. Real-life consequences can be quite complicated because much depends on promotion choice and general playstyle. As TMIT alluded to, Vultures have a higher incentive to stay on defensive terrain because they lose fair fights to enemy Axes.

*

On the whole, I rather like Vultures but I don't think they play in the same league as Quechuas, Skirmishers or War Chariots. War Chariots are inconvenienced by Spearmen but not stopped cold - if they do clash it's no worse than Sword vs. Axe hammer for hammer, and the mobility gives a lot of options.

TMIT mentioned that Horse Archers do well enough against their direct counters thanks to excellent withdrawl chances. Let's also consider this: C2 War Chariots will fight as well as F2 Horse Archers, suffer little more in attrition (30*0.9 vs. 50*0.5 expected hammer loss, 27 vs. 25) and only require 60% the initial investment, translating into superior number even if we discount the considerable use we may get out of them before HBR.

 

[bhavv]

Vultures are no where near as weak against axes as War Chariots or HAs are to spears, that is the point I am making

I also didnt say anywhere that HAs are useless, I said Praets > Vultures > Axes > HAs.

Just because I rank them lower, doesnt mean that I called them useless.

 

[vranasm]

Vultures are no where near as weak against axes as War Chariots or HAs are to spears, that is the point I am making

I also didnt say anywhere that HAs are useless, I said Praets > Vultures > Axes > HAs.

Just because I rank them lower, doesnt mean that I called them useless.

ok you may have a point with praets, but with vults, axes you are in denial...

looks to me that you don't know how to use the HA's.

shock axes absolutely obliterate your axes/vults and AI's build more axes then spears and you can stop AI's from building spears if you scout properly.

with 5xp HA's out the gate (rax+stables) you can have shock HA's and have winning odds on most troops you meet.
you can even trap AI's spears, you can ignore heavily fortified cities and capture weakly defended cities.

spears on hill when them is 2-3 are problem, but no one says you have to go with head against the wall...that's why you have 2-movements.

whereas your axes are always slower then HA's in enemy territory...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The difference when attacking defending axes is minuscule compared to an Axe

You consider being functionally defenseless on flat terrain minuscule?!

Not only that, but if the axes don't have good defensive bonuses, why wouldn't they just attack you at 65% odds or better? The answer is that they will, sometimes even in AI hands they will.

Regarding movement speed of units, by the time you need to use catapults this becomes irrelevant because you need to move your stack at the catapults speed.

It's nice to make statements that are irrelevant to my points, but it doesn't do a single thing to refute the advantage of 2 movements on units during a rush. If you want to involve catapults, then why even bring this up? Vulture advantage fades to nigh-nothingness if you factor catapults, because everything gets roasted by collateral. But why would a chariot or HA rush wait for catapults? That's senseless. If you don't understand the benefits of 2 move warfare that's fine, though I might kindly suggest that you learn them because it can be very fun .

I also didnt say anywhere that HAs are useless, I said Praets > Vultures > Axes > HAs.

Just because I rank them lower, doesnt mean that I called them useless.

It can and does mean your ranking is wrong though. In practice (look at the S&T games) HA have comparable efficacy to prats in the hands of experienced players. Look at the deity prat game where Mylene used them instead of prats just to prove a point . Horse archers have seen total BCs conquest on normal speed on monarch pangaea. Has anyone managed to do that with any version of axe, including the vulture? No. Vultures can be impressive on marathon though, where the 2 move is least advantageous. Even there, they can't compete with the times that war chariots put up and struggle to keep up with/beat HA. Perhaps there is a reason for that?

No, instead we keep seeing the 2 move argument ignored, as well as the simple reality that moving a stack of vultures into enemy territory will virtually always risk getting hit by 5+ axes the second you step on flat terrain, killing the rush.

It is much, much, MUCH harder for the AI or human to catch chariots or HA with spears.

 

[Higher Game]

Between well placed and timed rushing, and terrain, I don't think I've ever had a vulture stack get badly axed. The initial attack frequently yields a couple shock vultures anyway. There is a very small window where the AI has sufficient defense, and you don't have HBR or crossbows yet, where they could hit back. It's not hard to see that window and slip past it.

The vulture is just a lot of strength for very few hammers, and its one relative weakness isn't bad at all. That point of strength does matter in late medieval war, for a stack unit.

 

[bhavv]

TMIT, In practice the AI never attacks your vultures out in the open. When you actually play against the AI you have no problem at all stashing a Vulture SOD right next to an AI city and then attacking it the next turn. Ive been doing this a lot currently on Deity FYI and it works phenomenolly, my only problem is that I cant tech construction faster than the AI gets to Longbows, I believe I need to bulb maths in order to do that. Any player who is comfortable at conquest on Deity will fare better with Vultures than HAs.

Against any other ancient era unit including the HA, the Vulture is the top city attacker as it has the fewest weaknesses.

By your own explanation, HAs would get slaughtered on any terrain by Spearmen, I really dont see you thinking very clearly on this one, HAs move faster than Vultures yes, but they are far weaker at attacking cites, and even weaker on open terrain because they get no defensive bonus.

The only thing that stops either an axe, vulture, or HA rusH pre construction is Longbows, and even against Longbows a CR promoted Vulture is going to have higher odds than either an axe or HA.

Axes do not counter Vultures, not when controlled by the AI and simply stacked in a city. Every weakness you mention regarding the Vulture is far greater for the HA - weaker in the field and weaker when attacking cities than a vulture.

Mylenes game is the one I looked at, I even downloaded the save files to check it out. Her attacking stacks had catapults and AI cities had longbows.

You are trying to tell me that HAs are more effective at attacking cities without Catapults than CR promoted axes or vultures, Im calling your bluff on that one, they arent and I'll do another city attack simulation when I have time to prove it.

The HAs movement point bonus is completely negated when you have to move it in a stack with catapults, they still move 1 tile per turn. Before longbows and IW, a Vultre is hands down the top city attacker, and it is still even stronger than HAs when you get to use catapults too.

Everything that a HA can do, Vultures and Praets do it better.

Another strength for the Vulture if you manage to get copper is that you dont need to tech IW, HBR or Archery.

AH > Writing > Mining > Bronze > Maths > Masonry > Construction. Im not sure if you can spawn a great scientist before maths in that tech order using a CRE library, so maybe you can also slot in Hunting to get Spears added for stack defense + medic roles, and start making progress towards Priesthood for the UB until you get a GS to bulb maths. I'm going to test this now.