GEM: Leaders

[mitsho]

Yes, Swedish involvement in the 30 years war was not really about religion (as was the whole war if you look at alliance partners), I was more thinking of gameplay in that regard...

Though I'm not sure how one can model something after these examples you've given. Marching over Ice doesn't really work in civ, combat bonus in rough terrain would be a straight buff to which we want to avoid. It's very difficult to find a combat advantage that does not add strength to the units only...

As for Sweden and Science, there's also Carl Linné and his revolution of biology/taxonomy. That doesn't translate well into any UA as well, but I do think because of that, the Nobel prize is a clever idea for the Swedes, but I think it should work in the other direction (not giving great people to city states), but receiving them?

I'm playing the Ottomans at the moment, and the naval upkeep is killing me (nearly). Has the cheaper upkeep been deleted from its UA? I would like to have it back as otherwise I'm just constantly gifting ships to city states... That UA could be given to another civ as well and the Ottomans could receive either a Dhimmi or Millet-system where foreign religions give you higher taxes (= more ) and maybe , something that aids conquest of a plurasitic/heterogenous empire? Or a Vilayet-system that grants boni to Palace and Courthouse. Though to be fair, the naval UA is perfectly fine and I'm not sure of another civ that fits it better... (and it's a fun one, so keep it ).

EDIT: A Fun-to-play-as (even if a bit Hollywood like) UA for Russia could be the "Russian Winter" as f.e. seen in Rhyes and Fall of Civ. Russian Winter there creates attrition for enemy units (I'd say not much, 8 health per turn?) in your cultural borders. Would also work well together with the Kreposts faster borders. Siberian riches is fine, it's just not very 'active' since I normally have enough strategic ressources anyways.

 

[Ahriman]

I'm playing the Ottomans at the moment, and the naval upkeep is killing me (nearly). Has the cheaper upkeep been deleted from its UA?

Yes, Thal removed it, not sure why. Ottomans are a bit strong on a water map though given how strong naval melee is at the moment.
But I find military upkeep costs still too high across the board.

Russian Winter is problematic in that the Russian Empire won't necessarily be in the polar zone, even if it starts there. Its pretty weird for enemies to start suffering winter attrition in jungle zones.

 

[Lazaroth]

Marching over Ice doesn't really work in civ, combat bonus in rough terrain would be a straight buff to which we want to avoid. It's very difficult to find a combat advantage that does not add strength to the units only...

Unsure of what is possible, but the idea I had was in the lines of:

Bonus damage for 5 turns when declaring war against someone that is not angry at you. (sneak attack)

The idea can probably be evolved.

Russian Winter is problematic in that the Russian Empire won't necessarily be in the polar zone, even if it starts there. Its pretty weird for enemies to start suffering winter attrition in jungle zones.

While the winter was indeed a great benefit, the idea used is called scorched earth and is in theory applicable to all terrains.

 

[Ahriman]

Bonus damage for 5 turns when declaring war against someone that is not angry at you. (sneak attack)

That sounds very narrow, and not very flavorful.
One possibility: a bonus (strength? economy?) for being at war with more than one civ at once, with a larger bonus for more civs? Still a bit weird and unflavorful.

the idea used is called scorched earth and is in theory applicable to all terrains

But scorched earth is a fairly common strategy practiced by many civilizations. It's not really very Russia-specific.
"Scorched Earth" doesn't really work as a Russia-specific UA, and "Russian Winter" doesn't really work as something that applies across an array of climate zones.

 

[mitsho]

We can also call it "the Motherland Calls" for all that it's worth it. I agree that Winter may not be the best for a name though The question is rather if it's a good gameplay effect or not.

The sneak attack bonus doesn't really sounds too appealing I agree. Also not sure if it works for the AI?

 

[Ahriman]

The question is rather if it's a good gameplay effect or not.

I don't think it works any better than the existing UA. There is also the possibility of triggering the AI into loops, where units get frozen by perpetually trying to heal, or where the AI doesn't realize that it should avoid enemy territory.

Lots of strategy games have had effects where being in player X's territory damages them, and they usually end up being handled pretty poorly by the AI.

I also think we should also probably stay away from UAs that are only useful when fighting a defensive war. You don't win the game fighting defensive wars, so a UA that does this isn't very helpful.

If we did have a defensive effect, a Great Wall style movement penalty is probably wiser than a damage effect, but I still wouldn't go that way.

 

[Stalker0]

For Russia, perhaps the UA could be that you don't get the heal benefits for pillaging. Basically this mimics the fact that the Russian winter plus scorched earth preventing enemies from using the land to their benefit.

Although as far as Civs go, Russia is on the bottom of my list for work, I think there a pretty solid civ overall.

 

[Naeven]

Random idees on Sweden:

Giving Sweden any CS bonus at all feels weird for me. It's neutral, that includes vs smaller states.

U1:
I definitely think the UU of choice can only be the caroleans. They WERE the Swedish Empire
And I think the march promotion represent this elite/efficient unit just fine. Maybe + or +1 as well.

U2:
Public School UB (Folkskola) sounds spot on for a welfare state orianted Sweden.
extra per or extra specialist.

I don't like the Hakkapelitta promotions at all, I rather see something like +, +, No city attack penalty and/or +Great general creation.
I also don't like having Finnish cavalry in a welfarestate orianted Sweden, when Finland no longer belongs to it.
If we model Sweden to the militaristic empire, The Hakkapelitta can stay next to the Caroleans.

UA:
The Welfare state 1(Tall); The old Democracy civic: Specialist Population in Cities produce half the normal amount of Unhappiness. / + rate

The Welfare state 2(Wide); +(1-2) for any city with more than Y(3-4) specialists/ + rate

The Welfare state 3; Can buy specialists from earlier than other civs and/or can buy specialists from without special civics.

Swedish neutrality; +, +growth and/or + rate while at peace.

Nobel Prize; + for being in war against Sweden (not sure if codeable) / + rate

The allotment system (Indelningsverk) 1; If we model Sweden to the militaristic empire - X free maintenance units (per city?)

The allotment system (Indelningsverk) 2; +/+defence on farms representing the farmers paying maintenance for units.

 

[Ahriman]

Some good ideas here. I think Welfare State is less objectionable than Nobel Prize. Not sure which version though. I wouldn't make it Faith related though. Great person related probably works, but no need to tie it into diplomacy.

Public School I can see working too.

Caroleans as musketmen with extra strength and something else mobility related wrks.

 

[Stalker0]

Perhaps we could focus on Sweden's apparent duality, its very warlike beginnings tied to its very peaceful modern existance.

Perhaps a UA that provides a bonus while at war and a different bonus while in peace (war one more geared for early game, peace geared for late then).

Then focus the UU on the early game, and a UB on the late game.

 

[Stalker0]

thought I would do a quick review of each leader right now (I don't have all the dlcs so I don't have everyone).

Alexander - UUs are decent enough. When it comes to his CS powers, I feel other civs do it better.

Askia - Very strong civ currently. UA, UU, and UB are all very solid and promote his warlord feeling.

Attila - I think the battering ram really focususes his gameplay and provides a different conquest experience. Seems decent overall.

Caesar - Rome is right in the middle for civs. UA is a little dull but decent. The legion is also a fun unit with its road ability.

Bismark - There is nothing fun about bismark imo, I never play him.

Boudicca - The UA and UU works well together to create a solid faith based gameplay. I think she's solid.

Catherine - Catherine isn't that interesting as a civ but her abilities are good.

Darius - I think Darius is the strongest culture civ by a good margin, and definitely focused on GA elements that spice up his gameplay. One of the top of my list.

Dido - Does well to focus on her sea based gameplay and is solid enough.

England - I haven't played England in awhile. If the longbowmen still gets +1 range then I still rank it is one of the best UUs in the game (3 range just dominates). Otherwise can't say much here.

Gandhi - I really like the changes made to Gandhi. his play feels very distinct, even the worker before warrior changes how the game goes. One of my new favorites.

Genghis - THE civ for mounted combat. Very distinctive, very fun.

Gustavus - Very generic and boring to me, definately could use some love.

Haile - the steele is a fun building, everything else is super generic.

Harun - His UA and UB combine to make a very gold/trade focused civ. I think he is solid as is.

Hiawatha - One of my least favorites. I don't like his UA, and I think this UU and UB are pretty crappy.

Isabella - Another civ I really don't like to play. There's just nothing that interesting here.

Maria - Haven't gotten to play with her too much.

Montezuma - One of my new favorites. Monte with honor is just fun. I love trying to win cultural victories through conquest.

Napolean - Extremely generic and lackluster. I think all the other culture civs do it better.

Oda Nobunaga - Decent enough, but when I go conquest he is normally last on my list, I think other conquest civs are just more fun.

Pacal - The mayans are pretty fun, and there early ranged unit creates some fun times.

Ramesses - Nothing that interesting, but decent enough.

Ramkhamhaeng - My favorite CS civ. Really makes you make to get CSes, and his UA/UB are both great.

Suleiman - Haven't played him in a while.

Theodora - Another interesting faith based civ, decent enough.

Washington - Very generic and bland.

William - Did the polder get nerfed? I just played a game with him and swore the polder used to be stronger. Anyway, the sea beggar really defines the dutch as the dominant sea power at that time. Otherwise they are just okay.

Wu - Another military civ but with nothing interesting imo.

 

[Lazaroth]

Perhaps a UA that provides a bonus while at war and a different bonus while in peace (war one more geared for early game, peace geared for late then).

I liked that idea.



The thought I had was otherwise something with resources:

(still unsure of what is possible tho)

Since one of Sweden's unique units is horse based, perhaps making that unit only take 0.5 horse resources. (for the early militaristic game)

And since Nobel accomplishment was in explosives, I was thinking about coal giving a +research. (for the late game)

 

[mitsho]

Regarding Sweden, I'd like to keep in the Finnish side similar to the fact I'd want to keep the Norwegian Ski Infantry for the Danish

From your suggestions, I like the

Nobel Prize; + for being in war against Sweden (not sure if codeable) / + rate

for its creativity. What if we model Sweden as a civ that benefits from declaring war and making peace a lot, leading to swift conquests and then periods of peace? (4 turn golden age on peace, 4 turn advantage on declaring war?). But that doesn't feel right either and anyways, any of the suggestions seems fine to me.

As for Stalker's list, I do agree generally, though it looks mostly at gameplay.

Alexander has a passive UA that allows you to actively invest otherwise. I think he's fine (though he grew weaker with spies and coups, no?)

Askia is very solid yes, but doesn't really feel "Songhai" to me.

Attilla does rely on the battering ram as special, but I do feel he can get the barbarian ability.

Caesar and Ramses are good, and they're civs more apt for beginners. But that's ok.

Bismarck does need a overhaul. A Science/Military (Engineering) ability is needed.

Darius, I haven't played him for a while, but if his ability is too strong, that can simply be adressed with a nerf.

Haile can get a reskin, a tall /defensive/ sounds right for him, though those first two bite each other a bit.

Hiawatha, I disagree, he's distinct and fun to play, in my mind.

Isabella should get a bit of an overhaul, Napoleon can be made better quite easily...

Oda's fine, it can be very fun to play as him.

Theodora on the other hand is not that much special (UU's) though imho.

Washington, I disagree, he has a very distinct wide focus (as Napoleon btw.).

Wu's Chu-Ko-Nu is the equivalent to the Longbowman which you seem to be fine with. Also the General you start with is very distinct as well...

 

[Ahriman]

Nobel Prize; + for being in war against Sweden (not sure if codeable)

I'm not a fan of this because it doesn't benefit the Swedish player directly. I think UAs need to be more tangible to the player.

Alexander has a passive UA that allows you to actively invest otherwise. I think he's fine (though he grew weaker with spies and coups, no?)

Alex was weakened by spies and coups, and by all the city state quests, and by the general weakening of city state gifts (ie less influence per gold donation). I think he's at the weak end now. His UA was really designed around the original vanilla civ, where gold gifts were the main way that you achieved city state influence, but that is a long way from being true now. Maybe there is a way to give him larger influence boosts from all the other CS-influence mechanics too?

I agree that Hiawatha is a bit weak. Various changes to the economy mean that +1 production on forests and no gold maintenance cost for forest/roads are less valuable than they used to be, and UU swordsmen are generally weakened vs vanilla by the fact that iron is harder to come by, especially in the early game. So I think I would add +10% production to the UB, and add maybe some extra strength to the UU.

One thing that might be nice for a Tall faith-oriented Haile would be smaller cost increments in each new great person purchased with Faith. The problem for Tall civs is that there isn't much to buy with faith other than great people, but that the returns from buying great people decline fast because of how much the cost increases come in.
Or maybe earlier access to great people with faith purchase plus cheaper great people with faith purchase.

I think Japan is a bit weak, I think Samurai could be a bit stronger, and the UA was heavily nerfed by the combat system changes that reduced the damage penalty for low health. I think the UA needs something extra though too, it just doesn't give that much of a combat advantage anymore. We talked before about Japan being the quality-over-quantity civ before, so could we give them something like being less affected by flanking? [Probably hard to do since flanking applies to the enemy unit strength, but maybe Japanese could get +10% strength for each unit flanking them, ie halving the flanking penalty?]

I find Washington boring and always have. Extra sight just doesn't do anything beyond the very early game. I'll throw in before advocacy for a stock exchange UB ("commodities exchange") with extra gold.

C-K-N is not equivalent to Longbows, because Longbows now get effectively 2 free promotions, indirect fire and range.
China was weakened by economy changes that mean that a couple of extra gold per city is trivial. I think the paper maker could use an extra boost, either more +1 gold or +science.

 

[mystikx21]

China's a couple extra gold plus free upkeep on libraries. So +4 total per city. That isn't all that much in the scheme of things, but it can be a lot early to help with the early tech race while not bankrupting on upkeep. It's not as advantageous as other early UA/UB effects however. The nerf to ranged blitz already makes CKN a little weaker.

I'd agree Washington needs some help. The UB/sight/purchase effects are not bad for a wide expansionist civ (especially with liberty policy giving free walls), but those effects lose almost all their punch by the mid-game. I'd say they should get the free spy from the UK (models all the coups pulled off in Latin America/Middle East) and possibly an airplane discount for either cost or upkeep (for flavor).

I think Hiawatha is weakened, but a UU swords with no resource requirement (that you start the game with instead of a warrior), can be potent. Possibly they could use some other forest related boost effect (extra gold on river-forests?).

Ditto Samurai getting a slight boost.

 

[Ahriman]

*note post #74 above edited in crosspost*

The extra spy would help the US too.

I like boosting the forest flavor for Hiawatha, but I'm not sure the best way.
One possibility would be to have the benefit also apply to jungle, though that's a bit ahistoric.
Another would be to get the movement bonuses of forests even outside cultural borders, but that might be a bit strong. [I think I recall reading that being playtested and rejected in the original pre-release testing.]
Another thing that would help is if the tile-acquisition mechanic was tweaked for them and only them to make forest tiles favored more than open terrain. It's unfortunate that they benefit only from forests within their borders, but their borders still seem to prefer to take open grassland and plains.

 

[mystikx21]

I agree that Hiawatha is a bit weak. and UU swordsmen are generally weakened vs vanilla by the fact that iron is harder to come by, especially in the early game.

Hiawatha's UU doesn't have an iron requirement. Or it shouldn't if it does. (I haven't played them since the leaders changes went active, but I remember they didn't have one in VEM and don't have one in vanilla).

I would agree a tile acquisition that favors forests for them, or even just makes them equal in cost to flatland, would be very helpful.

Looking over the rest of the cross post, I'd be okay with either more gold or more science on paper makers. Stock exchange UB for US could work too instead of pioneer, or some UA effect that generates extra gold.

Ethiopia having an era or two earlier GP faith buys might be an interesting effect, but I'm not sure it'd make me want to play them any more than I already don't.

 

[Ahriman]

I haven't played Hiawatha for a while, so I'm not sure about the iron requirement; I seem to remember them as being not that useful, but that might be before the general swordsman boosts, if they're tough enough to take cities now then that could help.

Ethiopia earlier access to GP buys alone wouldn't be enough, they're also have to be cheaper. And the stele would have be tweaked to focus on Faith per pop. Being able to produce significant numbers of great people through Faith purchase would be quite valuable, especially since Tall civs otherwise don't have much to spend Faith on.
Another thing that could be done would be to remove the Policy requirement, so they could get any type of great person.
And another possibility would be to make them more resistant to implantation from religions from rival civs. One of the problems with trying to go Tall/religion oriented is that a single Great Prophet can wipe out your religion.
Though maybe if they're Faith oriented, you don't even care about the religion, you just want the Faith points.

 

[Thalassicus]

Lots of good ideas here!

I made a note to change the French UA to "Lingua Franca" with no obsolescence.

I'd like to find a civ for the theme of lightning warfare -- moving an entire combined arms force at high speed, by using faster ranged units (Germans used aircraft). Since this idea appears to be unpopular for Germany, what civ could we give it to?


@Ahriman
I agree that Sweden fits better as a militaristic civ historically and for gameplay. I do like the effect of improving alliances, one of the most radically unique effects in the game. I'd like to find a home for that bonus with a civ that fits better. What leader/civ makes sense for great people and alliances?

@mitsho
I really like the idea of a unique Carthaginian luxury resource! It's an active bonus, fits the naval trading theme, dramatically changes gameplay, and all the other good things for a leader bonus.

@Lazaroth
I like the idea of a high risk, high reward type UA for Sweden.

@mitsho
The vanilla Ottoman trait is ship capture + lower maintenance. I changed that to ship capture + free Liburna. I think running around with a Liburna at the start of the game is a lot more fun than getting some +X gold per turn. However, I could reduce the maintenance of barbarian ships, since that is probably the main issue. I think capturing major-civ ships is so powerful it needs a late-game counterbalance.

@Ahriman
Military costs are high because conquest is an easier path to victory than peace. As a conqueror myself, I like to make things more challenging. Professional Army basically pays for unit maintenance.

@Naeven
Thanks for the information. Based on your feedback I'll make sure to keep the Caroleans, whatever we do. I think we need to come up with a theme for Sweden. If it's going to be a militaristic empire, what kind of military? What sets it apart, in a broad sense, from other armies in history? You mentioned the allotment system, which sounds interesting, based on what I'm reading about it.

Contracts were written with counties and provinces, stating that they would have to raise and supply a regiment of 1,000 or 1,200 men in both wartime and peacetime. Usually, four farms (there were exceptions) were to join forces and equip a soldier. Those farms were the rote, and they also provided a croft (soldattorp), farmland, and equipment for one volunteer soldier who could then make a military career, while the rest of the men in the rote escaped conscription.

I like your ideas of farms providing some additional bonus. An easy one to implement would be adding production or gold to farms, similar to the Korean UA. It would turn the farm into a multipurpose improvement providing a little of every yield.


@Stalker0, Ahriman
The Iroquois are dramatically stronger in Gem than vanilla, but I would be okay with more buffs.

• Starts with a mohawk warrior.
• Mohawk warriors require no iron (unlike swords).
• All units start with Woodsman, increasing speed in all forests and jungle.
• Ability, units, and longhouse work on both forests and jungle, not just forests.
• Longhouse gets the forest/jungle bonus and all the bonuses of a normal Smithy, unlike vanilla.

I'd be okay with buffing Japan and China, and we discussed earlier how the free spy for America seems like a good idea to boost its lategame potential. What if all Japanese melee units start with Blitz, to combine with the no-damaged-penalty ability?

I find Washington one of my favorite leaders to play. It's important to remember these things do depend on our playstyle. I find the Minuteman rather bland, however, so why don't we replace it? What are some defining unique characteristics of the US? I'd say these fit historically and for gameplay:

• Space Travel
  Only 24 humans have ever left Earth's orbit, and the space program is one of the most remarkable drivers of innovation in history. What about a unique research lab? It's extremely late in the game, so we'd need to make it very powerful. What if every research lab also counts as a Spaceship Factory? We could call it a Space Center!
• Music
  The genres of jazz, blues, and rock and roll are truly American art forms, all descended from African music. What about a Venue unique stadium giving happiness, culture, and 1 copy of a Rock Music resource per building?
• Immigration
  This is why I chose growth and the pioneer fort as as a unique building. It represents the concept better than anything else I've seen, and a key period in US history. Immigration and westward expansion led to the strong sense of individualism in the country.

 

[Dunkah]

The US was know for it's ability to improvise when it came to warfare. Using cover early in the Revolution, and sniping leaders. Having troopers that say no way rather than just blindly following orders.

Russia was know for it's human wave attacks in WWII. Perhaps something along those lines.

Why wouldn't you use Blitzkrieg for the Germans? Seems like a good fit to me.