general feedback.

[thadian]

after playing this out i will say the Mazatl are the coolest addition but their workers are WORTHLESS and STONED unless they gain exp. note that i don't really like worker exp so making their workers depend on it seems odd.

i HATE the mana types but creation, dimensional and force mana aren't needed.

creation: Life+spirit = creation. i don't see why we need this, how about a blood mana, immune system mana, virus mana, bacteria mana, molecule mana...

Force/Dimensional: What is this, star wars? psionics? either way, it is not good. i don't know if it even has level 3-4 abilities. these mana types aren't needed and feel incomplete to be mandated to play fall further. i would remove them but i don't feel like spending 5 months of learning basics to know how to edit certain civ's who USE THEM BY DEFAULT.

I love the new game options! i don't like the "quick" options but i like being able to customize the world wrap/peaks. i also like having seperate "barbarians". they allow the barbarian factions to be seperate instead of lumping all non-civlizations as "barbarians".

I like the content of city specialization but is it too much? i like the FFH buildings the way they were, but the master tailor/blacksmith/fletcher is nice. i would change the other buildings back to how FFH had them and keep the "new" stage buildings.

"Equipment Upgrades" are pretty neat - my favorite feature besides the races. they are a wonderful addition and i would like an option to let the AI get these upgrades without having the proper building (master tailor).

Lastly, you guys did a good job - enough content to make this the "Warlords" of FFH but a little overboard in adding in these 3 worthless mana types and making them a pain to remove (as i said i would have to remove so many references from so many files i would lose track of what im doing).

so if anything else is done to improve Fall Futher, i do not suggest any additions, rather the removal of some things that make the changes a little "too much".

thanks!

 

[Valkrionn]

Creation/Force/Dimensional manas are there because there were 21 Angels, not 18... Dagda, Ceridwen, and Nantosuelta were left out in FfH because Kael didn't like any of the ideas for them, but they WERE originally planned.

And with the buildings, FF didn't really add that many besides the training buildings. Rather, they opted to not remove some buildings when FfH did a few patches back.

 

[deadliver]

after playing this out....

Welcome to our happy family.

Creation, Force and Dimensional mana all play a useful role in FF, just look at the pedia. (though I am sure your post is based off of it)

In my not so humble opinion, a person's inability to remove features is not a valid reason for criticism. Ask any of the FF modders for help and I am pretty sure they'd provide the know how on removing the problem, unless you have PM'd them already.

 

[Honor]

Thank you thadian, and welcome to the world of Fall Further. I am sure the dev team will appreciate the feedback you have provided.

 

[dyx]

I don't think you have to spend 5 months to remove the mana from civs. These are just resources tied to the palace, while I never bothered looking into civ modding I can imagine it's quite easy to remove.
Apart from that these spheres are in the lore, so yeah... your own suggestions are actually already included in various other spheres. But if you have some nice ideas for spells I guess you could post them. And if they're cool someone might to include it, since some spells are quite bleak.

 

[Breez]

I play FF because it adds more "stuff". Remove things? FF Lite?

I don't want to play that game.

 

[arcticnightwolf]

Well, sometimes more is less...

But I agree with the others - if you don't like it, remove it ( well... in case feature is coded in python/xml level )

 

[WarKirby]

The new mana types are awesome. removing them would be bad.

Force I is accelerate. Haste for golems, angels, siege weapons, etc. It's practically essential if you use any of those regularly. Force II gives a ranged attack to mages, giving them direct damage capability and still allowing them to cast a spell in the same turn, while safely getting them xp without risking battle.

Creation I is growth, allowing cities to grow faster, AND gives more health. good for fighting the blight, or just if you need to grow a lot. Works very well with Calabim. Creation II allows you to transform food resources, so you can turn duplicates into something you don't have, and thus gain more health

 

[Mylon]

While the new mana types do seem to add useful features, what if these replaced the existing mana types? There are lots of summons already, a few damage spells, etc, enchant 1 and enchant 2 seem redundant, and I rarely if ever play with the level 3 spells since archmages are such a bother to get.

Courage and loyalty, while they serve different purposes, are both general buff and forget spells (and it can become a micromanagement hassle trying to make sure two different stacks have both! And the use for courage seems fairly rare.) Blinding light just seems bleh in general.

 

[Valkrionn]

Generally, I'm against merging things just because it's easier.... Mana types, however, are much harder to design decent spells for. Something like 63 unique spells? Plenty of ideas for them all, but not necessarily GOOD ones.

 

[Opera]

Generally, I'm against merging things just because it's easier.... Mana types, however, are much harder to design decent spells for. Something like 63 unique spells? Plenty of ideas for them all, but not necessarily GOOD ones.

Yeah... I had to found at least 9 and it was hard. Eventually, I came up with more but, as you said, not necessarily good ones. For that, I guess that the feedback is the greatest support. One spell isn't good? You can count on players to say it and even to find another one. I'm not saying the developpers should bestow it all on the players but it is very useful sometimes as coming with interesting ideas isn't that easy.

Anyway, neither Force nor Creation mana are in Orbis. Only Dimensional (from the above three) and I don't remember the spells it has... I was thinking of some spell ideas in order to add them but, as I said, it's a tough process; besides, I don't really like the Creation spells of FF. Force ones are, well, good but not really exciting...

 

[thadian]

Just to clarify...

Creation, Force and Dimensional mana all play a useful role in FF, just look at the pedia. (though I am sure your post is based off of it)

I was unaware of this, these mana types really get in the way of my towers and i didn't understand their presence. as a game element, they feel incomplete. think of a session at the table of D20 - and the DM gives you a class with cool abilities but doesn't know what they all do yet. it feels like everything meaningful to the game that can be done is already done by the other types.

And with the buildings, FF didn't really add that many besides the training buildings. Rather, they opted to not remove some buildings when FfH did a few patches back.

I am unaware of this, i only recently began playing FFH - i like the buildings that add the "pay-promotions" but it feels inconsistent going from FFH to FF. Thats what the real problem is with the differences of "training yard" "barracks" "archery range", its inconsistent with FFH and almost adds "too much" to get used to.


But don't think im insulting Fall Further! I enjoy this mod, and of all the mod-mod's ive seen for any of the relevant mods, this one is the best of them. a lot of the mods have a "modmod". some function as "scenarios" and others as "expansions" and an "expansion" should be consistent with the vanilla.

but this expansion as i said - is the warlords/bts of FFH and its pretty nice.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I quite like Creation, Force, and Dimensional, but my version doesn't use the same spells as FF. While It may be useful, I especially dislike the way Force is implemented in FF, since it has absolutely no connection to the philosophical meaning of the sphere.

 

[The NeverTide]

MC, if you don't mind my asking, how did you end up implementing the spheres(read: force)?

 

[Opera]

I would like to know this too. Especially about Creation.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Force

Force I: Temperance - gives living units in the stack a promotion providing protection against both holy and unholy damage.

Force II: Repel Divine - pushes away angelic and demonic units, as well as high priests, and deals a small amount of physical damage to them. Can be resisted.

Force III: Wall of Geis - Since I'm not a fan of many world spells, I'm removing them or changing their pereqs (turning some into rituals). This spell is essentially the current Elohim world spell Sanctuary, but doesn't last quite as long, it kills the caster, and you can use it multiple times.

Force III/Spirit III: Peace (taken from Corindale, who gets force I for free now)

The same mechanism that makes leaders dislike users of Death and Entropy mana makes them like those who use force. (That also means Hyborem dislikes the use of Force mana.)

Dimensional

Dimensional I: Escape

Dimensional II: I had left this with only the summon perk, and for a while made Planar gates a Sheaim only Dimensional II spell/requires caster building (right now I have it requiring Sundered and Channeling II), and was thinking I'd just use the FF spell when I move to an FF base but hadn't gotten around to it. However, I just started trying out a new spell, Obsession, which adds the Obsession promotion to units within a 1 tile range (including enemy units and your own). This promotion makes casters better at and and more vulnerable to magic. I'm not really sure how much I like it yet, but I wanted something that could be interpreted as a more psychological form of the sphere.

(Dimensional II, Sheaim only, requires Sheaim Palace: Escape to Bair - moves the unit directly to the Bair of Lacuna Unique Feature, wherever it happens to be at the time. When another civs units approach and the Bair moves, Sheaim units are taken along for the ride.)

Dimensional III: Summon Tesseract - creates a non-combat ICMB-like transport summon, letting you move 4 units directly to almost any tile on the map (just not those too close to those with whom you are not at war). I'm still trying to find a good way to stop this from letting you use this to free Brigit without needing a level 15 unit. I may remove Brigit_held and make freeing Brigit her require a spell rather than an onMove function like I had tried before. (I've found that the AI is actually really good at freeing Odio via a spell.)

Dimensional III: Planar Gate (same as in FF, I don't think the AI can understand the other Dimensional III spell so it needs this one)


Dimensional I, II, and III also grants Combat II, III, and IV (receptively) as summon perks, which may be changed to +1 duration when I move to an FF base. Or, I might not, as giving all the summons a unitcombat means these perks open up a lot of specialized promotions. I was planning on getting rid of the Summoner Trait, but I'm not really set on that any more.

Dimensional Mana has the same effect as Entropy Mana on diplomacy, plus using its "nukes" hurts diplomacy.

Creation

Creation I: Fertility - Creates a building that is basically a Calabim Breeding Pit but helps health instead of hurting it. (Settlements can actually grow a little if you use this.)

Creation II: Inspiration - Creates the Inspiration building, which now allows a free specialist of every type and gives culture in addition to its old effects. (I'm not really a big fan of my new Mind I spell, Cupidity, though, so I may change it back and think of something else here. I may give Vitalize a delay and move it here, as Nature III already has Summon Guardian Vines too.)

Creation III: Prodigious Birth - causes a random great person to be born in a random city of a random civ. Has a 4 turn delay.

 

[civ_king]

Creation/Force/Dimensional manas are there because there were 21 Angels, not 18... Dagda, Ceridwen, and Nantosuelta were left out in FfH because Kael didn't like any of the ideas for them, but they WERE originally planned.

And with the buildings, FF didn't really add that many besides the training buildings. Rather, they opted to not remove some buildings when FfH did a few patches back.

You mean Amatheon? (Nantosuelta is enchantment...)

 

[Opera]

Force

Force I: Temperance - gives living units in the stack a promotion providing protection against both holy and unholy damage.

Force II: Repel Divine - pushes away angelic and demonic units, as well as high priests, and deals a small amount of physical damage to them. Can be resisted.

I like those. Especially Temperance.

The same mechanism that makes leaders dislike users of Death and Entropy mana makes them like those who use force. (That also means Hyborem dislikes the use of Force mana.)

(snip)

Dimensional Mana has the same effect as Entropy Mana on diplomacy, plus using its "nukes" hurts diplomacy.

I like this too. Very interesting idea.

Creation

Creation I: Fertility - Creates a building that is basically a Calabim Breeding Pit but helps health instead of hurting it. (Settlements can actually grow a little if you use this.)

Creation II: Inspiration - Creates the Inspiration building, which now allows a free specialist of every type and gives culture in addition to its old effects. (I'm not really a big fan of my new Mind I spell, Cupidity, though, so I may change it back and think of something else here. I may give Vitalize a delay and move it here, as Nature III already has Summon Guardian Vines too.)

Creation III: Prodigious Birth - causes a random great person to be born in a random city of a random civ. Has a 4 turn delay.

Those are interesting too, even though I can't make my mind about Creation III. I don't know if I like it of if it just seems crazy.

 

[Valkrionn]

You mean Amatheon? (Nantosuelta is enchantment...)

Ah, yes, yes I do.

 

[The NeverTide]

I like the ideas you have for the spells, especially the dimensional line. Most of the 3rd level spells you listed scare me with their intensity, which is exactly what arch-mage spells should do. I've read around, but have you ever/are you ever going to release your private version as a modmod(mod)? Granted you do port it over to FF. Just curious really, but from what I've read of your improvements across the board it sounds very interesting.