Gridless Civ ?

3 years ago, Soren Johnson actually asked the question to Sid Meier in a video interview and here's what they told about it:

Soren Johnson: you told in your book [Sid Meier's Memoir!] that being turn-based is an important pillar of [Civilization]. Do you feel the same way about it being a tile-based game?

Sid Meier: I think as far as it lends to feeling very comfortable understanding the situation. I think that's kind of a pillar of the game in that you're not questioning what's happening now, you're thinking about what's going to happen next. To this extent, the tiles allow you to clearly see this unit can move here, this unit could attack here, I could be attacked here. You know to that extent I think tiles are helpful. Whether they're essential, whether you could have that clarity without tiles, I guess it's kind of of an almost artistic UI kind of question. But I think understanding clealry what the possibilities are is a pillar of the game.

Here's the interview, the question is asked at 10:58.


When it goes about my humble opinion, I assume the question deserves being asked mainly because trend in the two last iterations of the game was to unstack everything. In Civ5 units were unstacked, in Civ6 infrastructures were unstacked. This, together with hexes which actually limited move options, has lead to massively increase the importance of tiles. At this point, I can't really see where this can bring the game forward without doing something about scales. Is the solution to subdivide tiles or to go gridless? I don't really know, but I'm pretty convinced we can't move forward without doing something about it.
 
I can’t see this ever happening, and I don’t really think physical scale is a compelling problem to solve. There are many inaccuracies or inconsistencies throughout the games that most players just don’t care about because we know it’s a game.

Put another way: you don’t see many Call of Duty players demanding more realistic reloading (in fact they removed reload canceling and people got angry), or equipment load encumberance, etc.
 
Not saying this about this post in particular, but what I think some people don't realise is that simplicity is what made this game so successful in the first place.
There's a unique visual design that's very intuitive and keeps people coming back.
 
I could see gridless/tileless happening, if there were some other way to visually and intuitively communicate what the size/range of everything is in an incredibly simple and straightforward manner.

But I don't know how to do that, and I'm not sure if anyone else does either. So until I then I'm guessing hexes are going to stick around.
 
Not saying this about this post in particular, but what I think some people don't realise is that simplicity is what made this game so successful in the first place.
There's a unique visual design that's very intuitive and keeps people coming back.
Yes, but the trap you've often fallen into is believing that it's a matter of simplicity vs. complexity, and the fomer is always good and the latter is always bad, and often with dismissive presumed reasons for players wanting a facet or feature to have more nuance or complexity. But, it's not an absolute binary choice, A Civ iteration very much can (and has) contain and combine features of both sorts.

That being said, Civ without tiles would just be wierd.
 
A map without tiles would need some other geometry to define movement and placement of Improvements, Cities, armies, etc on the map.

The new game ARA appears to do it with Regions and Sub-Regions, but these are, basically, just Larger Tiles each of which potentially holds more Things. And larger tiles, of course, simply makes the map effectively Smaller because there are fewer options available for movement and possibly for placement.

Another way is to use Nodes and fixed lines of movement. The old board game Soldier Kings used this geometry, ion which each Node was a city or town and the roads between them were the only way you could move, and all movement was from Node to Node. This works very well when you are modeling a simplified situation, as that game did for the wars of western Europe in the mid-18th century, but it is far more problematic if the essence of the game is building an Empire and founding cities and therefore constantly changing the Nodes and methods of traversing the space between them.

One 'semi-tileless' method is to use tiles much smaller than the items displayed, so that placement and movement options are vastly increased. It's as if each tile in Civ VI became 10 tiles with all the 'extra' options for movement and placement within them. The obvious problem is that on Civ-sized maps it would make it impossible to tell what was in a tile without zooming in on it, so that the game would become a constant series of zoom in/zoom out actions until you became violently nauseated from vertigo.

I'm sure there are a host of other options, but those occured to me right away and, frankly, none of them appeal very much as any improvement over what we have now for ease of play and certainty of placement and space to place and maneuver game elements on the map.
 
One 'semi-tileless' method is to use tiles much smaller than the items displayed, so that placement and movement options are vastly increased. It's as if each tile in Civ VI became 10 tiles with all the 'extra' options for movement and placement within them. The obvious problem is that on Civ-sized maps it would make it impossible to tell what was in a tile without zooming in on it, so that the game would become a constant series of zoom in/zoom out actions until you became violently nauseated from vertigo.
On the semi-tileless, isn't that how Total War games worked? They are just really really teeny tiny tiles. So all that is needed really is to give units a zone of control, which works better if units are compressed into armies rather than each unit moving independently.

Personally I prefer the current tile-system. Would love to see some verticality (not in the extremes of Humankind), but thats really all I would like to see changed map-wise (oh and maybe more 'features' and biomes).
 
Yes, but the trap you've often fallen into is believing that it's a matter of simplicity vs. complexity, and the fomer is always good and the latter is always bad, and often with dismissive presumed reasons for players wanting a facet or feature to have more nuance or complexity. But, it's not an absolute binary choice, A Civ iteration very much can (and has) contain and combine features of both sorts.

That being said, Civ without tiles would just be wierd.

The trap you've fallen into is thinking this level of narcissism where you think you can make assumptions on what I think about Simplicity Vs Complexity on various issues.
So simplicity is fine when we're talking about Grids but Combat it's not?
Have you ever thought that maybe there is differing opinions on various topics?
 
Currently I don't think most personal computers would be able to handle a map where each individual point had a the information that a hex does in civ. I can see a gridless system for a civ like game that's 'zoomed in' at a street level, as opposed to civ which is 'zoomed out' where you can see a whole continent at a time.

At some point in the not as distant future as we think there will be PC that could handle that level of game. The question will become if users have enough time to play to 'master' the game.
 
The trap you've fallen into is thinking this level of narcissism where you think you can make assumptions on what I think about Simplicity Vs Complexity on various issues.
So simplicity is fine when we're talking about Grids but Combat it's not?
Have you ever thought that maybe there is differing opinions on various topics?
It's not narcissism to comment on a demonstrated opinion shown numerous times. Perhaps the term would better be applied to viciously accusing those who point out any your views as perhaps needing reconsideration as being personal attacks, and immediately insulting such people. Your reactions to being disagreed with, while making some making insulting disagreemennts. yourself, have been beyond the pale. I tried to put it diplomatically in my post above, but it seems you're incorrigible beyond reason on the matter.
 
Simplicity is not quite the right term here (though it is close) ; I think the main issue is *information accessibility*. That is, making information as easily accessible to players as it can be. This is desirable, because the less effort players have to make to access the information (ie, being able to tell how far a unit can move simply by looking at tiles and terrain rather than having to calculate exact grid distance or check movement range), the more that information is accessible to them, and the more they can focus on playing the game rather than on retrieving information.

Discreet, separate territories, with borders clearly visible on the map, whether provinces/regions/locations (ala Paradox) or tiles are a very big part of making that information readily visible and accessible, and for that reason I tend to think it unlikely that the game will move away from them, regardless of how else the game progress.
 
Currently I don't think most personal computers would be able to handle a map where each individual point had a the information that a hex does in civ. I can see a gridless system for a civ like game that's 'zoomed in' at a street level, as opposed to civ which is 'zoomed out' where you can see a whole continent at a time.

At some point in the not as distant future as we think there will be PC that could handle that level of game. The question will become if users have enough time to play to 'master' the game.

If you consider games such as Cities: Skylines or even Transport Fever 2, data isn't stored at each individual points but rather as objects. Cities: Skylines is particularly impressive in the information that it manages: a pretty large 3D maps rendering every buildings, every trees, wild animals, with rivers actually flowing, resources being exploited, and about 100,000 inhabitants constantly commuting between different destinations all in real time. All that is already available in CS1 which is nearly 10 years old now (CS2 does have performance issues), but even sticking to what is handled by CS1, that's already far more than what you would need in a turn-based game like Civilization.

I'm pretty confident that it's technically feasible, the question is rather whether it is desirable. As I told earlier, I don't feel tiles are particularly restrictive by themselves as long as you can group as many things as you want on them. What is restrictive aren't tiles, but the fact to limit what they can contain.
 
It's not narcissism to comment on a demonstrated opinion shown numerous times. Perhaps the term would better be applied to viciously accusing those who point out any your views as perhaps needing reconsideration as being personal attacks, and immediately insulting such people. Your reactions to being disagreed with, while making some making insulting disagreemennts. yourself, have been beyond the pale. I tried to put it diplomatically in my post above, but it seems you're incorrigible beyond reason on the matter.

This is getting ridiculous with you, acting like I'm doing something wrong.
Every time I comment on something totally irrelevant to you, you come out of nowhere to be snarky. That IS a personal attack in and of itself.

Views that I have expressed in the past are pure opinion, but you took offence to something that doesn't even relate to you or anything you commented.

Please leave me alone, it's only you who comments in these snarky disrespectful ways.


EXAMPLE:
"idea: gridless"

Me:
"Yea simplistic visual design like grids are good"

You:
"See This is why you're stupid, you think simplistic stuff is always good."

(Assumption, completely out of nowhere, completely personal, completely unrelated)



Completely unwarranted behaviour that I'm getting tired of.
 
I'm pretty confident that it's technically feasible, the question is rather whether it is desirable. As I told earlier, I don't feel tiles are particularly restrictive by themselves as long as you can group as many things as you want on them. What is restrictive aren't tiles, but the fact to limit what they can contain.
Exactly. Currently, a District in a single tile in Civ VI can also include up to 3 additional 'structures' and a railroad passing through: 5 separate items in a single tile. Even in the 'semi-wild' countryside you can have a hill, mine, and road or railroad in a single tile: one terrain element and 2 'constructed elements in one game-determined 'space'.

I think a better design decision than going 'gridless' would be to determine the limits of what the average comouter can handle in discrete elements in each individual tile. Can we increase allowed structures in a District to 5 or 6? Can we allow variations in size of those structures so that some are larger or smaller than others? Can we allow Castles or other Fortifications in a tile that also has mines, plantations, farms, pastures, camps, railroads or roads, etc? How many units can dance on the head of a pin - in a single tile, without overloading our systems? Better questions, I think.
 
This is getting ridiculous with you, acting like I'm doing something wrong.
Perhaps your conduct is wanting, and it's not just me. Perhaps things you dismiss as personal attacks and insults (and response with actual personal attacks and insults) might actually be disagreeing opinions and calling out toxic behaviour. Perhaps, "responses out nowhere to those who haven't addressed," are the way things work on a public discussion forum. Perhaps one should take the advice of a former Premier of my home province in Canada and, "look in the mirror!"
 
It is just you
As long you lot self-insight, and blame everything on me, no betterment or addressing of your toxic conduct, or any rational discussion on it, is possible. It's quite unfortunate.
 
Ah its only a coincidence that only you out of everyone complains, only you bother to whine in every single thread.
It's almost as if an attack on 'complexity' is a personal attack on yourself, and you just feel the need to come swooping in like some knight in shining armour.

So have you considered that I am not actually toxic, as the absence of other people's comments would suggest?
(my comment actually got likes in this thread which actually implies that I probably didn't say anything toxic)

And that maybe you are letting your hurt feelings control your needless comments in every thread?
Maybe you could keep to yourself? Only a suggestion
 
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