Guild Balance - Early/Mid/Late Game

[Sezneg]

I wanted to start a conversation about the relative balance between the guilds.

I feel that some are much better than others right now, Esus especially is pretty weak for an early game pick. I'd like to see it get the bonus to cottages earlier. Perhaps on the first or second tech. A lot of the unlocks in this guild are tied to the city infiltration unit, and that is HIGHLY situational especially since the mod puts so much dangerous empty space between starting locations on the average map.

I like the end of the game units in Esus, though I would rather get one of those units early since most other guild unit unlocks are much earlier in the game. I've usually won by the time I can access a shadow rider or shadow.

So what I think Esus should get:

1. Earlier Access to the cottage yield, perhaps by moving the current yield increase, perhaps by providing it twice.
2. Move the shadow unit earlier in the tree, but reduce the power so that it fits the earlier access
3. Some upgrade that let's you steal guild techs with the infiltrator would be awesome!

 

[Ombatur]

I wanted to start a conversation about the relative balance between the guilds.
I feel that some are much better than others right now, Esus especially is pretty weak for an early game pick.

You get an invisible unit, which gets better yields form tribal villages for the first guild tech though. With that you're able to explore every tribal village on the map. This is a nice early game advantage. Additionally you get a good amount of money through the thief missions and wonder building.

I'd like to see it get the bonus to cottages earlier. Perhaps on the first or second tech.

I personally think the bonus to cottages is quite good and having access to it earlier could be too powerful.

A lot of the unlocks in this guild are tied to the city infiltration unit, and that is HIGHLY situational especially since the mod puts so much dangerous empty space between starting locations on the average map.

I'm not sure I understand, why dangerous and empty space makes thieves situational, since they're invisible. But I agree, that it would be nice to have a bit more things earlier in the guild, that are not tied to infiltration.

 

[Sezneg]

It's not so much that the thieves are "not good", it's that they are being compared to things like using mana to rush, access to deer/fur and a free good tier unit, etc.

 

[Linvega]

I honestly feel like all guilds except the ranger's guild are a bit weak compared to it as first guilds:

Artisan: Super unreliable early on. If you don't have any relevant ressources nearby, it's a dead tech. I almost never take it as the first guild because of this.
Merchant: I never really build districts before the first guild(units+settlers are more important), so I often can take this second without any loss.
Magi: Without the relevant ressource and/or mana, it's also dead early on, so I might as well grab it later.
Healer: Sometimes good, but really situational.
Slavery: The unhappiness can be quite stiffling, but otherwise pretty great. The second best.
Priest: Mostly the same as merchant. It's not bad, it's just that I'm not building a temple that early. Somewhat different for priest rushing strategies, but that's quite specific.

Meanwhile, ranger:
-Free ranger, which gets +2 strength +50% animals
-allows to capture animals
-Javelin, which gives +4 Free Strikes without any disadvantages
-deer/fur access, which is actually the smallest benefit
AND did I mention that the second ranger tech allows you to easily double your culture output, which no other guild comes even close to, WITHOUT needing to pay hammers.

It gets a more balanced later on, but I almost always go ranger first, even if my civ has no particular reason to go ranger.

 

[Sezneg]

I honestly feel like all guilds except the ranger's guild are a bit weak compared to it as first guilds:

Artisan: Super unreliable early on. If you don't have any relevant ressources nearby, it's a dead tech. I almost never take it as the first guild because of this.
Merchant: I never really build districts before the first guild(units+settlers are more important), so I often can take this second without any loss.
Magi: Without the relevant ressource and/or mana, it's also dead early on, so I might as well grab it later.
Healer: Sometimes good, but really situational.
Slavery: The unhappiness can be quite stiffling, but otherwise pretty great. The second best.
Priest: Mostly the same as merchant. It's not bad, it's just that I'm not building a temple that early. Somewhat different for priest rushing strategies, but that's quite specific.

Meanwhile, ranger:
-Free ranger, which gets +2 strength +50% animals
-allows to capture animals
-Javelin, which gives +4 Free Strikes without any disadvantages
-deer/fur access, which is actually the smallest benefit
AND did I mention that the second ranger tech allows you to easily double your culture output, which no other guild comes even close to, WITHOUT needing to pay hammers.

It gets a more balanced later on, but I almost always go ranger first, even if my civ has no particular reason to go ranger.

Don't undersell the magi circle. In the early game, before you have things to spend mana on, it turbo charges your unit/settler production, since you can turn all of that unused mana into hammers.

 

[Vital Brasil]

Don't undersell the magi circle. In the early game, before you have things to spend mana on, it turbo charges your unit/settler production, since you can turn all of that unused mana into hammers.

Yeah, you're right. But still, rangers guild is almost always the best guild to get on the start.
I consider the magi and priests guild the second option (depending on the civ).

But to be honest, for me, most of the things depends on the civilization i am playing with.
If i am playing with a dwarven civ, i get artisans guil asap. I really hate when some other civ build Athos Alchemy Workshop before me, and those mithril armors/weapons are just godly.
If i am playing with Amurites, i get magi circle asap. Generating tons a mana per turn, coupled with that rushing spell is a great starting guild for them.
If i am playing with a religious civ, like Bannor or Elohim, i get priest guild fast too (usually the second). Being able to generate faith fast, coupled with the healer class is just great in wars and cleaning barbarian lairs.

Now, i never get healers guild at the start (Its usually my 3rd or 4th choice). Only after i have a decent herb production/stock to make use of the potions. I may get it sooner if i play an agnostic civilization to be able to train healers.

The merchants guild is a guild i get only when a civilization has synergy with it, like Hippus, Lannun, Malakin, Austrin... Otherwise, i just skip it. Gold isn't really a problem in my games.

Slavers guild i almost never get on the beginning. The unhappiness penalty is to harsh and it cripples a lot the development of my civ. I always get this guild after the rangers guild, or after getting some beer and wine, to compensate the unhappiness problem. Trying to play this civic in early game with AV religion is a nightmare.

And the Esus guild is just a situational guild for me, usually because i think other guilds are better most of the time. Its really a fun guild, with fun mechanics, a fun hero, OP units and a OP wonder (most of the fun things come too late on the game). But i don't know, i only get it when playing with civilizations that fits its theme, like Starvaltar and Sidar.

I am fine with the idea that not every guild should be useful at the beginning (the usefulness depending on the civ). But actually, rangers guild is the way to go in most of the cases, and the second guild choice will depends greatly on the civ i am playing with.

 

[Linvega]

Don't undersell the magi circle. In the early game, before you have things to spend mana on, it turbo charges your unit/settler production, since you can turn all of that unused mana into hammers.

Mana gets auto-converted into spell research at a 1:1 rate by default. 150:60 is a relatively bad rate imo, so I rarely do that unless I don't need spell research at all - in which case I wouldn't take magi circle. But I'm gonna give it a try, maybe I'm underestimating it.

 

[esvath]

Is it necessary to nerf Ranger's Guild a bit? Push Javelin, Deer an Fur back to third tech?

 

[Guru-Meditation]

@Slaver's Guild

I found this guild to be not really worth going for early/early mid-game, due to the unhappiness penalty. I play on Immortal / Deity, depending on civ, and the tradeoffs are not worth it. The unhappiness from this guild keeps the cities much smaller, which in itself almost nullifies the gains of a potential whipping in the longer run. This might be differnt on lower difficulties, where cities come with more base Happiness so giving up 2 or 3 for Slavery doesnt half your citysize.

The Civic Slavery itself i found a bit lackluster, as in the most basic it has to contend with simply staying in Profits and earning a nice cashboost. As well as that running Profits doesnt cost a guild slot to unlock.

In total i find the drawbacks of the Great Person production grinding to a halt tolerable and worthy of making interesting decisions about. But the unhappyness pushes it from interesting into an area of voluntary self-crippling.

 

[Guru-Meditation]

@Guild of Esus

I, too, found that the really nice units come too late in the tech-chain, so that when i get them i already have basically won.

Perhaps the Shadow should come sooner, with the Shadow Rider being the awesome endunit.

 

[esvath]

@Slaver's Guild

I found this guild to be not really worth going for early/early mid-game, due to the unhappiness penalty. I play on Immortal / Deity, depending on civ, and the tradeoffs are not worth it. The unhappiness from this guild keeps the cities much smaller, which in itself almost nullifies the gains of a potential whipping in the longer run. This might be differnt on lower difficulties, where cities come with more base Happiness so giving up 2 or 3 for Slavery doesnt half your citysize.

The Civic Slavery itself i found a bit lackluster, as in the most basic it has to contend with simply staying in Profits and earning a nice cashboost. As well as that running Profits doesnt cost a guild slot to unlock.

In total i find the drawbacks of the Great Person production grinding to a halt tolerable and worthy of making interesting decisions about. But the unhappyness pushes it from interesting into an area of voluntary self-crippling.

IF the unhappiness penalty is gone from Slaver's Guild, would that make this guild OP?
Or, maybe put the unhappiness not on Slaver's Guild techs but on the various buildings? Players will have the opportunity to skip the buildings if they don't want to deal with unhappiness. Even if they build the buildings, the unhappiness will only affect one city, not whole civ.

@Guild of Esus

I, too, found that the really nice units come too late in the tech-chain, so that when i get them i already have basically won.

Perhaps the Shadow should come sooner, with the Shadow Rider being the awesome endunit.

How about:
- Shadow requires Esus IV.
- Str: 6 +2 Unholy, +1 Razorweed Affinity.
- Cost: 100 hammer + 300 Leather.

This makes Shadow on similar tech level with Ranger but more expensive due to its invisibility.

Is it necessary to nerf Ranger's Guild a bit? Push Javelin, Deer an Fur back to third tech?

On the next version:
- Javelin requires Ranger's Guild IV. It gives +25% attack str, costs 350 lumber.
- All animal pens gives +1 happiness +1 culture (nerfed from +1 happiness +3 culture). This will make them on par with Balseraphs' various slave cages.
- Deer, Fur and Ivory are unlocked on Ranger's Guild III, together with Silk.
Thus, level I RG only gives: a free Ranger, unlocks Hawk, Woodcutter, Tannery and Grand Lodge.
Is this too much for nerfing RG?

 

[Linvega]

IF the unhappiness penalty is gone from Slaver's Guild, would that make this guild OP?
Or, maybe put the unhappiness not on Slaver's Guild techs but on the various buildings? Players will have the opportunity to skip the buildings if they don't want to deal with unhappiness. Even if they build the buildings, the unhappiness will only affect one city, not whole civ.

+1 for unhappiness on buildings instead of techs. Same imo for the Artisan's guild, actually.

How about:
- Shadow requires Esus IV.
- Str: 6 +2 Unholy, +1 Razorweed Affinity.
- Cost: 100 hammer + 300 Leather.

This makes Shadow on similar tech level with Ranger but more expensive due to its invisibility.

I'm also in favor of this. Maybe even give a free shadow on EG II.

On the next version:
- Javelin requires Ranger's Guild IV. It gives +25% attack str, costs 350 lumber.
- All animal pens gives +1 happiness +1 culture (nerfed from +1 happiness +3 culture). This will make them on par with Balseraphs' various slave cages.
- Deer, Fur and Ivory are unlocked on Ranger's Guild III, together with Silk.
Thus, level I RG only gives: a free Ranger, unlocks Hawk, Woodcutter, Tannery and Grand Lodge.
Is this too much for nerfing RG?

I think getting a high tier unit that early is just inherently OP. I'd give the free Ranger on RG II, that's two techs earlier than normal, but Deer, Ivory and Fur still on tech 1. Than you get a very strong unit still quite early, but with a slightly higher investment than now. Otherwise, I like the changes.
Though maybe nerf piercing weapons/rapid strike in general, because even without the early javelin, you can get the spear with Hunting almost as early, and 4 free strikes without any disadvantage is really strong. If you nerf it, you can also let it stay in tech 1.

 

[Vital Brasil]

IF the unhappiness penalty is gone from Slaver's Guild, would that make this guild OP?
Or, maybe put the unhappiness not on Slaver's Guild techs but on the various buildings? Players will have the opportunity to skip the buildings if they don't want to deal with unhappiness. Even if they build the buildings, the unhappiness will only affect one city, not whole civ.

My 2 cents:

At the moment, slaver's guild gives 4 unhappiness, which is pretty harsh. But it makes sense having this guild giving unhappiness. Also slavery civic is pretty lackluster. Aiming to adress this, my suggestions are:

- Only 2 civic techs should give unhappiness, maybe slave trade and painful motivation
- The other 2 unhappiness should be given through buildings, maybe slave market and dungeon (which should have the anger reduction from sacrifice buffed to 50% to compensate)
- Guild of the nine building should be moved to slave trade tech, to compensate the unhappiness given by this tech. So you will want to get beer and wine asap. Rename this Guild of the Nine tech to Hall of the nine.
- This would make you still have a net 2 unhappiness. 4 from unhappiness for the techs and buildings, and 2 happiness from beer and wine (which is not easy to get). Noble and military cities will be a bit happier due to Banner of Chaos.
- The slavery civic is pretty boring, so since slavers civs cities tend do have smaller population, i think the improvements should be a bit more profitable. Like quarries, mines, farms and plantations. Maybe they should produce an additional commerce under slavery?

Also, Where's the building Guild Chapterhouse ? Grand Hall of the Nine should make Guild Chapterhouse gives 1 happiness, but i could not find this building on civpedia.

How about:
- Shadow requires Esus IV.
- Str: 6 +2 Unholy, +1 Razorweed Affinity.
- Cost: 100 hammer + 300 Leather.

This makes Shadow on similar tech level with Ranger but more expensive due to its invisibility.

I am fine with that

On the next version:
- Javelin requires Ranger's Guild IV. It gives +25% attack str, costs 350 lumber.
- All animal pens gives +1 happiness +1 culture (nerfed from +1 happiness +3 culture). This will make them on par with Balseraphs' various slave cages.
- Deer, Fur and Ivory are unlocked on Ranger's Guild III, together with Silk.
Thus, level I RG only gives: a free Ranger, unlocks Hawk, Woodcutter, Tannery and Grand Lodge.
Is this too much for nerfing RG?

I agree with those changes.

I think getting a high tier unit that early is just inherently OP. I'd give the free Ranger on RG II, that's two techs earlier than normal, but Deer, Ivory and Fur still on tech 1. Than you get a very strong unit still quite early, but with a slightly higher investment than now. Otherwise, I like the changes.
Though maybe nerf piercing weapons/rapid strike in general, because even without the early javelin, you can get the spear with Hunting almost as early, and 4 free strikes without any disadvantage is really strong. If you nerf it, you can also let it stay in tech 1.

The problem with this, is that moving ranger to RG II will make early game exploration impossible to many civs. The exception being those civilizations which can train a recon unit capable of carrying hawks at the beggining.

 

[Linvega]

The problem with this, is that moving ranger to RG II will make early game exploration impossible to many civs. The exception being those civilizations which can train a recon unit capable of carrying hawks at the beggining.

As Ombatur already mentioned, the Unseen Blade exists, too. So if you think you really need easy early game exploration, you take the Esus Guild. But at least then you actually need to build the unit instead of getting it entirely for free.

Otherwise, the regular early recon unit isn't that bad, either. You might lose one while training, but after training, they can hold their own unless you get greedy.

And lastly, you can get to Guild Tech II still pretty early if you really think you need to. Again, here, you need to dedicate yourself a bit more though, which is a good thing imo.

 

[Ombatur]

IF the unhappiness penalty is gone from Slaver's Guild, would that make this guild OP?

I think, that would make it too OP.

On the next version:
- Javelin requires Ranger's Guild IV. It gives +25% attack str, costs 350 lumber.
- All animal pens gives +1 happiness +1 culture (nerfed from +1 happiness +3 culture). This will make them on par with Balseraphs' various slave cages.
- Deer, Fur and Ivory are unlocked on Ranger's Guild III, together with Silk.
Thus, level I RG only gives: a free Ranger, unlocks Hawk, Woodcutter, Tannery and Grand Lodge.
Is this too much for nerfing RG?

Seems good.

At the moment, slaver's guild gives 4 unhappiness, which is pretty harsh. But it makes sense having this guild giving unhappiness. Also slavery civic is pretty lackluster. Aiming to address this, my suggestions are:

- Only 2 civic techs should give unhappiness, maybe slave trade and painful motivation
- The other 2 unhappiness should be given through buildings, maybe slave market and dungeon (which should have the anger reduction from sacrifice buffed to 50% to compensate)

I like this idea. I personally would leave 3 unhappiness for guild techs and 1 for buildings. Giving unhappiness to buildings might result in people just ignoring these buildings, if the effect isn't significant enough.

- The slavery civic is pretty boring, so since slavers civs cities tend do have smaller population, i think the improvements should be a bit more profitable. Like quarries, mines, farms and plantations. Maybe they should produce an additional commerce under slavery?

I don't like the slavery civic as well. But I don't think it should buff the improvements. The national wonder you get from slavery guild already buffs the quarries. My problem with slavery is, that i never fell whipping my population is worthwhile. It would be nice to have a building somewhere in the slavery guild line, that increases the production you get for whipping your people.

 

[esvath]

It would be nice to have a building somewhere in the slavery guild line, that increases the production you get for whipping your people.

The Jet Throne at the end of this guild reduces the amount of population required for rushing with population. This works globally in a civ. I can make another one with less effect as a national wonder and put it somewhere in the middle.

 

[esvath]

Ok, I changed Obsidian Castle (from giving bonus to quarries) to:
- reduces cost of rushing by 20%.
- gives +1 unhappiness in all cities.
- requires Slavers Guild V.

AFAIK, "reduce cost of rushing" works with both rushing with population and rushing with gold.
The Jet Throne gives another 50% bonus for rushing. I checked and these are cumulative.

Bonus to quarries is moved to Slavers Guild V.

So, overall, there are two global unhappiness from techs, one global unhappiness from National Wonder (Obsidian Castle) and one local unhappiness from Slavers Compound (which is required for slavery related buildings, including Obsidian Castle).

 

[Psychodad]

I would prefer a standard building, giving the bonus only to the city. So you can specialize the cities you want to burn a lot of population further.

 

[esvath]

I would prefer a standard building, giving the bonus only to the city. So you can specialize the cities you want to burn a lot of population further.

Unfortunately. giving rush bonus only to a particular city is impossible with current DLL code.

I can change "+1 unhappiness to all city" into another form of penalty, like "+3 unhappiness to this city" or something like that.