Holiday origins - do you care?

[duckstab]

The origins don't really matter so much to me as the significance they were given when I was growing up.

I was raised Catholic but have long since lapsed and have considered myself a Buddhist for several years. Christmas has never been a problem for me because I've always approached it in a mostly secular fashion anyway. It feels pretty weird for me to do anything special for Easter, however, because it was always a much more religious affair in my parents' home. Once I was too old to go on egg hunts it was pretty much about going to mass.

Of course, I understand that both those holidays actually have roots in pagan traditions that were later appropriated by the Church, so the ultimate origins are even less significant considerations.

 

[duckstab]

This was actually what I was thinking of when I made the thread. OT1H, Patty's day is about drinking beer. OTOH, it's about religious conquest, specifically the victory of Catholicism. Not much for me to cheer there.

But if one doesn't like the meaning behind something, is one being a party-pooper or are they justified? I remember hearing a decade ago of some people who didn't like the origins of Halloween, and I thought, "just let the kids get their free candy".

I'm Irish-American, and St. Patrick's day has never been anything to me other than an excuse to wear a green shirt and affect a fake brogue. At one time I might have gone out drinking but nowadays all I can think about is the crowds. If it falls on a weekend I'll have a beer or two. But I'd have done that on the weekend in any case.

Back in grad school my housemates and I were planning a St. Patrick's party and one of my close friends, who happened to be Jewish, declined to come, on the grounds that it was a "Christian festival". I was surprised he took it so much more seriously than I did, but obviously I didn't grow up with anti-Semitism.

 

[madviking]

1 Jan: obvious
14 Feb: obvious
16 Mar: madviking birthday bonanza
17 Mar: madviking birthday bonanza, part two
Easter: in the form of Easters
5 May: madviking birthday bonanza, south of the border edition
Mem. Day: first day of cool time, pool time
4 July: madviking birthday bonanza, explodey and america edition
August: ???
Labor Day: the day I throw out the white clothes in my wardrobe.
Columbus Day: in the form of fall break
Halloween: obvious
Thanksgiving: obvious, also madviking birthday bonanza, football edition
Decemberween: since it's 55 days after Halloween.
31 Dec: obvious

These are the holidays I personally celebrate. There are other holidays I get, too. But they aren't really worth mentioning.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

So you admit that what happened in Ireland in the fourth and fifth centuries wasn't genocide?

Did 100% of the people convert willingly, without any coercion at all? Did 100% of the people say, "Christianity? Yeah, that sounds a LOT better than the heathen crap we've been believing!"

 

[madviking]

And that will change, somehow, by you "protesting" St. Paddy's?

 

[ParkCungHee]

Did 100% of the people convert willingly, without any coercion at all? Did 100% of the people say, "Christianity? Yeah, that sounds a LOT better than the heathen crap we've been believing!"

Pretty much looks that way, yeah. Christianity brought many noticeable improvements to Ireland, while Druidism couldn't counter prosthelitize because it forbade most people from knowing the tenets of the religion.
There's no evidence of coercion, even by the seventh century.
Seems like a pretty big hole in the oral tradition to me.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

And that will change, somehow, by you "protesting" St. Paddy's?

Where did you get the notion that I'm "protesting" it? Do you think I make a picket sign and march up and down the street every March 17th and target pubs that serve green beer?

I couldn't be bothered. I just said I don't celebrate it. That means I make no effort to wear green. Since I never drink beer, I don't need to worry about what color it is. I do have Irish ancestry through my mother and I love Irish folk music. But I refuse to celebrate St. Patrick's Day.

I don't give a damn if every other of the 7 billion+ people on this planet choose to celebrate it. That's their business. I just reserve the right to IGNORE it.

 

[madviking]

Hence the quotes...

 

[Dachs]

Pretty much looks that way, yeah. Christianity brought many noticeable improvements to Ireland, while Druidism couldn't counter prosthelitize because it forbade most people from knowing the tenets of the religion.
There's no evidence of coercion, even by the seventh century.
Seems like a pretty big hole in the oral tradition to me.

I would add to this, though, that fourth- and fifth-century Ireland does show considerable evidence of some sort of turmoil, and the Roman historical record could lead one to believe that Irish piracy in the waters around Roman Britannia was a result of increasingly violent politics on that island creating an unusually large number of 'losers' who sought to recoup losses of prestige and, potentially, cash and other goods by raiding. Many of these Irish raiders ended up serving in the Roman military and there was at least some Irish settlement from the period of Magnus Maximus' ascendancy onward.

And it's important to note that the introduction of Christianity was only one facet of the considerable flux Irish society was undergoing in that period - settlement patterns changed, sometimes dramatically, and there is good evidence that some of the large (by Irish standards) political bodies broke up in the fourth and fifth centuries (e.g. legendary Ulster). A massive proliferation of small ring-forts in the archaeological record in the fifth century probably indicates a period of considerable violence surrounding the collapse of the older states and a change of emphasis to familial relationships as the primary building block of political power. (Well, familial relationships and cattle.) Land clearance rapidly expanded during the relevant period as well.

It would be foolish to view Christianity as the catalyst for these changes. (One might wonder what, for instance, land clearance would have to do with Christianity, or how Catholic clerics could influence settlement patterns on such a scale.) It might not have even been a catalyst at all, but a religious adoption to provide a societal focus during a time of considerable pressure. Or it could have been coincidence. It is safe to say, however, that the spread of Christianity in Ireland was not an instance of a cohesive, coordinated attempt - by the Roman Empire, by the Catholic Church, by whomever - to eradicate druidism or the old polytheistic cults. It does not belong under the heading of genocide, cultural or otherwise.

 

[holy king]

i do:
easter is something about zombies, new year is something about sylvester the cat, and christmas is something about a quadriga.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

Some public holidays are frankly a pain in the ass

 

[LucyDuke]

That's kind of a cool holiday, actually.

 

[rugbyLEAGUEfan]

That's kind of a cool holiday, actually.

It is if you know it's happening and you can prepare. Get a group together, keep the noise down and have a little party or just spend quality time with a loved one.

But for the unaware, it's a huge pain suddenly finding out you can't leave your hotel for 24 hours.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Boredom, ensconced in a public holiday. No, just no. I'd sooner kill myself than go bored for a whole day.

 

[LucyDuke]

Yeah a surprise on vacation would be lame. SS-18 ICBM, I doubt they would kill you for opting out quietly.

 

[really]

1 Jan New Year's Day - ok
17 Mar St. Patrick's Day - no great interest - too much drunkenness and the weather usually isn't too good. This year I was visiting my girlfriend's family in a remote part of Ireland.

9 Apr Easter Monday (movable, Good Friday isn't a holiday in Ireland but the pubs are closed)
If I had my way I would probably lock the Easter holiday down as a commemoration of the 1916 rising.

7 May - May Day (first Monday in May - ok)
4 Jun - June Bank Holiday (first Monday in June - used to be Whit Monday?)

6 Aug August Bank Holiday - (first Monday in August - coincides with local horse racing meeting - party time)
29 Oct October Bank Holiday (last Monday in October - used to be Nov 1st/ All saints, Halloween time - fun)
25 Dec Christmas Day - I don't do anything religious but I enjoy the holiday
26 Dec St. Stephen's Day - as above

If any of the above fall on a weekend you get the following Monday off work.

If people want an example of an Irish holiday that celebrates the displacement of one religion by another have a look at the 12th of July celebrations in the North
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18829447

A loyalist band has been filmed stopping to play loyalist tunes outside a Catholic church in north Belfast.
The incident happened at St Patrick's Church on Donegall Street during the Twelfth of July parade on Thursday.
The band - wearing Shankill YCV uniforms - was recorded walking around in circles outside the church by two different people.
At the end of one of the videos, the person recording it is confronted and threatened by members of another band.
At one point the band was playing the music of "the famine song", an anti-Catholic song which originated in Glasgow.
The famine song is played to the music of the Beach Boys' Sloop John B, but replaces the chorus "I feel so broke up, I wanna go home" with "The famine is over, why don't you go home?".

Link to video.

 

[Traitorfish]

What you wouldn't give for a freak tornado...

 

[Artifis]

Put me into the group of people who like holidays for the day off it gives, unless there's a crapload of food and celebration, then add that in too.

P.S.
Though recently I've noticed myself giving more thought to the significance of the holiday and what it means to people, though that may not always coincide with the holiday's origins.

 

[Lord Gay]

I'll be honest, I thought Patrick's actions were of a more violent nature and that he was sainted for being a major player in wiping out the pagan faith. The all-knowing Wikipedia tells me instead that Patrick was a proselytizer who used a clever gimmick to gain converts, and evangelized for most of his life.

However, violent or not, the core of the holiday still seems to be a celebration of the successful spreading of Christianity throughout Ireland, and praising Patrick for his role in that victory.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I'll be honest, I thought Patrick's actions were of a more violent nature and that he was sainted for being a major player in wiping out the pagan faith. The all-knowing Wikipedia tells me instead that Patrick was a proselytizer who used a clever gimmick to gain converts, and evangelized for most of his life.

Yeah, I mean, he was one of a handful of people sent to convert an entire society with no support from any other polities. Any attempt at conversion by force would have been farcical.