How are you keeping up with the barbarians?

[Sezneg]

I am having just a terrible time with barbs this update, to the point of almost giving up on most of the civs. For me, if I don't start with an offensive mana, or a strong civ mechanic in the early game it just becomes an exercise in futility.

I can go for quick growth, but I just end up with literally 5-10 goblins sitting on my resources with STR well above what I can field.

Right now the barb system is NOT choice. It's just an illusion of choice. If you give them gold or pop, you lose. If you don't tech warrior for your local legend, you lose.

It's maddeningly frustrating and holding this mod back. If I could just get vanilla FFH barbs in this mod, it would be the best FFH mod in existence, but instead I end up spending half the game fighting barbs to the point that if I survive I just walk over whatever other civs are in game.

 

[Gil Araujo]

I usually go for warrior caste tech first (to increase my army str, be able to equip my units with rudimentar armor, to be able to train my local legend, and for those two 20xp units you gain for free). This usually gives me condition fo fight goblin lairs. Then i go to barter tech and choose the rangers guild option.

If you keep an unit defending an improvement, goblins will just stay out of your borders. Thats why i go for rangers guild, because i use the captured animals to occupy my improved tiles.
Orcs will just raid your cities, so i keep at least 2 units garrisoned in each city. Well, sometimes they will pillage, but they won't be in the same tile forever, unlike goblins.
Its important to use the garrison feature, because you will need many units to defend your territory, and to be able to have an offensive army. You will want to destroy the lairs, without leaving your lands unprotected.

That being said, i especialize my units in 2 ways. The ones that will defend the territory (land protector class is amazing for this), and the ones that will raid barbarian lairs.
Also, its important to keep patriotism civic while barbarians are still a threat, and to make a smart use of your resources. So don't build more improvements than your city will work, don't build a workshop if you'r low on metal and need to equip your units with a sword, for example...

You will also find out that destroying barbarian lairs will help enormously your economy, so, staying in defensive position all the time may cripple your development. Also, the xp you will farm and the itens you may get will just make you more powerful
Some maps, like MoM_Erebus have regions separated by mountain ranges, with strategically placed valleys. So, it may be wise to guard those valleys to prevent barbarian invasions.

If you lack magic capabilities, just don't bother with it in early game. You don't need a fireball everyt urn to be able to kick their barbarian asses.

Of course this strategy varies depending on the civ. Ljosalfar will have a hard times with goblins, but they have an early hero, so make good use of it. Also their local legend is pretty badass.
When playing a civilization with death mana, you may not need rangers guild. Just keep the skeletons you get in combat defending your improvements...
If you play a magic heavy civilization, go for spell damage and spell target promotions/ classes. Aura boost in early game is pretty useless.
Just to give a few examples...

The only kind of barbarian lair that REALLY troubles my games are the barrows, due to the necromancer they spawn. But they are defended by weak skeletons and are usually on deserts (defenders take defensive penalty). So, its not hard to destroy them.

The other advices would be to not expand your civilization more than your defensive capabilities, to never give them tributes or slaves (unless you want to be in peace with them) and to never play with raging barbarians on.. lol

In a nutshell, they are a pain in the ass, for sure, but they don't make the game unplayable.

 

[Sezneg]

I usually go for warrior caste tech first (to increase my army str, be able to equip my units with rudimentar armor, to be able to train my local legend, and for those two 20xp units you gain for free). This usually gives me condition fo fight goblin lairs. Then i go to barter tech and choose the rangers guild option.

So basically, for every civ and every game you are forced to tech just this way? Because that's just the illusion of choice and prone to getting stale. I'm having a lot of difficulty with Svartalfar, who have the weaknesses of the Ljosalfar but lack an early game hero.

 

[esvath]

I'll have to take a look on the code, but will it help if on Normal or Easy difficulty, civs spawn with extra Warrior (or equivalent unit)?

For whether every civ has to tech Warrior Caste, I'd say no. Some civs gain better benefits from magic tech (Amurites, Sheaim), or getting religion (Bannor, Elohim...). For Svartalfar, I'd go with Barter -> Ranger's Guild. You get more benefits which sync well with recon units. But getting Warrior Caste is beneficial to the majority of civs.

 

[Sezneg]

I'll have to take a look on the code, but will it help if on Normal or Easy difficulty, civs spawn with extra Warrior (or equivalent unit)?

For whether every civ has to tech Warrior Caste, I'd say no. Some civs gain better benefits from magic tech (Amurites, Sheaim), or getting religion (Bannor, Elohim...). For Svartalfar, I'd go with Barter -> Ranger's Guild. You get more benefits which sync well with recon units. But getting Warrior Caste is beneficial to the majority of civs.

I played through 5 more games this weekend, and I don't think it's barbarians in general. I think it's Goblin archers in particular. On games when I spawn on grassland, 50-100% of the lairs that spawn will be goblins archers. When I spawn on plains, 0% will be. The games in ANY terrain that is not grassland are NOTICEABLY easier. I think it is specifically that compared to other barbarians, the goblins are too strong. You have to win a few 70-30 combats early on with the local legend or free ranger from rangers guild to not end up overwhelmed. Their AI can be tricked by leaving a single unit on the tiles they target (they seem to target a specific tile like "fudge THIS improvement in particular", but that is not feasible outside of 2-3 cities, and even trying to speed tech I can't keep up with their natural STR growth on higher difficulty.

Basically, I have to sink full equipment into two stronger than average units that I can't replace and win a 70-30 battle or two to take out the early lairs. I think the goblins in particular could stand a toning down. It sounds like people are cheesing them to avoid getting overwhelmed (leaving a weak unit that the goblins would easily beat in combat on the spot they are trying to get to causes them to never enter your territory).

 

[esvath]

Hmmm. I wonder why do you feel Goblin Archers are stronger than other barbarians?
- Goblin Archer 5 +3 poison
- Orc Savage 9
- Human Bandit 10
- Skeleton 4 +3 unholy

Goblin forts spawn Goblin Archer + Goblin Wolf Rider (which is fast). Is that the cause?

 

[Guru-Meditation]

Goblin Archers get defensive Boni from terrain.
That makes them stronger then their base STR might imply. Especially as they like to go camping in Hills, Forests or in forrested Hills and then get +25% fortification on top, if you dont get them quickly.

At OP:
At the strat when Barbs are the most dangerous i choose and name a few units as those i want to train and some Mooks fresh from being build. I do only 90% battles with the in-training elites. If the chances are less the that i try some maneuvering. If i need to fight i use some mooks to soften up the barbs, rather then risking my elite-in-training units for bad combat chances. A guaranteed loss of a 0 XP freshly produced unit is not really bad, but a 30% chance to loose a 60 XP unit is very dangerous.

After some time the elites get strong enough by themselfs to get 100% battles against the more dangerous barbarians, and the fresh mooks can take over sweeping up weak and/or damaged barbs to get themself some XP to become decent Units, while they are being protected by the old elites.

Also i have a "Home Guard" of preferably Lord Protector promotion, or if not possibly, depening on Civ, at least with th Homeguard promotion, who stay behind in my teritory, only guarding my land.

 

[Guru-Meditation]

Oh and also getting a GeneralCommander via the Vengeance tree is very ncie for his +10% combat strengh buff (this helps when not storming cities) and also the race-specific anti-promotions you find in this Discipline.

Trouble with Goblin Archers? Choose Goblinslaying, etc...

 

[Sezneg]

Hmmm. I wonder why do you feel Goblin Archers are stronger than other barbarians?
- Goblin Archer 5 +3 poison
- Orc Savage 9
- Human Bandit 10
- Skeleton 4 +3 unholy

Goblin forts spawn Goblin Archer + Goblin Wolf Rider (which is fast). Is that the cause?

Goblin Archers get defensive Boni from terrain.
That makes them stronger then their base STR might imply. Especially as they like to go camping in Hills, Forests or in forrested Hills and then get +25% fortification on top, if you dont get them quickly.

That's basically the cause. Their lairs are usually in a jungle/forest, and quite often a hill as well. And the base spawn that sit on that are fortified to boot. If they were just a defensive lair that was hard to prune, it would be one thing, but they spit out units that go and turtle on your improvements. Having them reach and camp your food resource can be pretty crippling.

 

[Vital Brasil]

So, i am the guy who posted the first reply here, but now that i noticed that i posted using an old account, that i didnt even remember the password.. lol

Based on my games (and on the posts i see here), elven civilizations have the hardest time against against goblins, and that's due to their weakness to poison damage.
It looks to me that the problem is more like elven civs x goblins lairs than every civ x all the barbarians lairs.
Ljosalfar have an early game hero, which helps to balance this, but Svartalfar doesn't. So, lack of hero + weakness to poison make the svartalfar the civ with the worst early game by far, imo.

That being said, there are still ways to play a successfull game with them, despite of the challenge. You can always go vengeance -> goblin slayer, get some promotions against archers, get land protector class to help to maintain them outside borders. Another good strategy may be rushing to religion to get your priests, so their heal spell that comes with medic II will neutralize goblins poisons...

But i agree that playing them can be more frustating than the others in early games. Having your ass being kicked by barbarians is pretty demotivational. But on the other hand, challenge is always good.

So, i propose:

- Reduce the poison strenght for goblins archers from 3 to 2/1 and increase their physical strenght by 2/1 accordingly. This is to make them easier for elves, without nerfing them for the others.

and/or

- Make the ranger spawned for free after you get rangers guild starts with 30 xp. This will allow you to scout your territory, see the main threats and specialize your unit to counter them. So, if you are surrounded by goblins, its easy to get vengeance -> goblin slayer; if you are surrounded by orcs, you can either go vengeance ->orc slayer, or get the bard class, to prevent them from attacking your cities...

This may cause rangers guild to become very powerful in early game, so this leads to another suggestion to balance it.. lol

- Make priest chapter spawns a 30xp priest when researched and make the magi circle spawn a 60 xp adept when researched (Its really easy to get an adept to 40xp, but hard to get him above this). But you can only get those free experienced units if you research their guilds soon.

This will lead to more varied starting strategies, and help a lot against barbarians in early game.

 

[Sezneg]

So, i am the guy who posted the first reply here, but now that i noticed that i posted using an old account, that i didnt even remember the password.. lol

Based on my games (and on the posts i see here), elven civilizations have the hardest time against against goblins, and that's due to their weakness to poison damage.
It looks to me that the problem is more like elven civs x goblins lairs than every civ x all the barbarians lairs.
Ljosalfar have an early game hero, which helps to balance this, but Svartalfar doesn't. So, lack of hero + weakness to poison make the svartalfar the civ with the worst early game by far, imo.

That being said, there are still ways to play a successfull game with them, despite of the challenge. You can always go vengeance -> goblin slayer, get some promotions against archers, get land protector class to help to maintain them outside borders. Another good strategy may be rushing to religion to get your priests, so their heal spell that comes with medic II will neutralize goblins poisons...

But i agree that playing them can be more frustating than the others in early games. Having your ass being kicked by barbarians is pretty demotivational. But on the other hand, challenge is always good.

So, i propose:

- Reduce the poison strenght for goblins archers from 3 to 2/1 and increase their physical strenght by 2/1 accordingly. This is to make them easier for elves, without nerfing them for the others.

and/or

- Make the ranger spawned for free after you get rangers guild starts with 30 xp. This will allow you to scout your territory, see the main threats and specialize your unit to counter them. So, if you are surrounded by goblins, its easy to get vengeance -> goblin slayer; if you are surrounded by orcs, you can either go vengeance ->orc slayer, or get the bard class, to prevent them from attacking your cities...

This may cause rangers guild to become very powerful in early game, so this leads to another suggestion to balance it.. lol

- Make priest chapter spawns a 30xp priest when researched and make the magi circle spawn a 60 xp adept when researched (Its really easy to get an adept to 40xp, but hard to get him above this). But you can only get those free experienced units if you research their guilds soon.

This will lead to more varied starting strategies, and help a lot against barbarians in early game.

In 9 years of playing FFH2 based mod mods, I never knew elves had a weakness to poison. It really explains WHY it feels so rough specifically with the svarts. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

 

[esvath]

Yes, Elves have 10% weakness to Poison. I'll change Goblin Archers to 5+2 poison for the next version. Let's see the balance then.

 

[Calavente]

I never noticed the Elves weakness to poison.... [enlighted]

for more general issues:

goblins archers suck because :
- a turtling 8str unit with first strikes is much hard to deal with than a 9str orc that attack your city (YOU have the 25% defense + terrain defense against the orc, while in case of Gob THEY are the one with 75% defense (hill+forest+25% ; not counting the fort : I'm only counting when they are in your territory)
- POISON : poisonned units are not always healed for next invasion. or at the very least they rarely are able to get a "neutral fight" for a few xp inbetween two gob waves.

Maybe goblin archers should STAY in the fort ? and the only raiders should be wolfriders and goblin spearmen ? (it would be thus like poison-frostlings... and much easier to handle without being too easy).

 

[Sezneg]

I never noticed the Elves weakness to poison.... [enlighted]

for more general issues:

goblins archers suck because :
- a turtling 8str unit with first strikes is much hard to deal with than a 9str orc that attack your city (YOU have the 25% defense + terrain defense against the orc, while in case of Gob THEY are the one with 75% defense (hill+forest+25% ; not counting the fort : I'm only counting when they are in your territory)
- POISON : poisonned units are not always healed for next invasion. or at the very least they rarely are able to get a "neutral fight" for a few xp inbetween two gob waves.

Maybe goblin archers should STAY in the fort ? and the only raiders should be wolfriders and goblin spearmen ? (it would be thus like poison-frostlings... and much easier to handle without being too easy).

I had to quit a svarts game yesterday because i had 5 goblin forts. I went full military trying to keep up and break out to expand, but lost a 91% combat against a goblin spear unit that gained +30% vs dark elves randomly and I basically lost.

 

[Vital Brasil]

So, i'd like to share with you guys a successfully strategy on dealing with barbarians i just used on my last game:

This strategy consists on promoting your adepts on draconic disciple class. At first, you will get a fear spell, which is just great for breaking goblins turtling on their lairs or in your territory. Since it makes them move, they lose their fortify bonus and, in some cases, all of them abandon their lairs, making an easy task clearing the lairs.

A bit later (when you unlock your tier 2 arcane units) you will be able to use the breath fire spell, which works just like a fireball (affects 3 targets and deals fire damage over time) and its amazing for those civilizations that don't start with an offensive mana. So its easy to weaken barbarians defending their lairs before invading them.

Now, i'd like to thanks Esvath for maybe the most fun thing that already happened to me while role playing a Fall From Heaven based game: One of my draconic disciple mages found a blood of dragon potion on one of the lairs i cleared and he became a powerful red dragon !! That was just amazing !!

 

[esvath]

ne of my draconic disciple mages found a blood of dragon potion on one of the lairs i cleared and he became a powerful red dragon !! That was just amazing !!

That is so cool!

 

[Gelscressor]

I personally find that barbarians presently get strength increases due to the passing of time a bit too quickly. Which is why I made a modification to slow down their strength increase.

Should be easy enough to do yourself with Notepad ++. See https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...rogression-mom-extended.547167/#post-13832844

 

[Theodorick]

I notice going for warrior caste tech first, and focusing on your military in early game, is literally the only way to play this mod right now.

But I see no issue in that, but that's just me. What always happens in the end is that I have a solid military by early/mid-game, with no barbarian threats anymore, a decent sized empire, and the freedom to go down any path I want. I've never had any issues with any of my games as a result, since the barbarians force me to have a strong early army and empire, which ends up making the rest of the game sometimes ridiculously easy.

 

[Linvega]

I notice going for warrior caste tech first, and focusing on your military in early game, is literally the only way to play this mod right now.

But I see no issue in that, but that's just me. What always happens in the end is that I have a solid military by early/mid-game, with no barbarian threats anymore, a decent sized empire, and the freedom to go down any path I want. I've never had any issues with any of my games as a result, since the barbarians force me to have a strong early army and empire, which ends up making the rest of the game sometimes ridiculously easy.

I never go war tech first, though almost always second, and I'm usually fine. One "trick" in my experience is that barbarians only start attacking around turn ~50, so I usually go for 3-4 cities very early and then start pumping out lots of military. This surprisingly works better than with only one city because more cities = more hammers = more military, and I usually build them very close to each other, so they're fairly easy to protect all at once.

My biggest issue is often random placement of very strong barbarians, like wraiths or ice golems. I've had games in which 32-strength wraiths start attacking my cities while my units are at strength ~13-15, and without lots of fire mana(or even more other mana, like air) it pretty much forces me to sacrifice units to even have a fighting chance.

 

[esvath]

My biggest issue is often random placement of very strong barbarians, like wraiths or ice golems

Wraiths, Ice golems (and other strong units should be placed in tiles with high wilderness value. I am not sure about map scripts, but these tiles should be nearing the poles.