this is an open question. really.
currently, unless you are ljos or amurite, one does not really have an interest to go to archers. unless you're screwed, without copper nor horses, you "might" want to get some archers to get defense while you turtle and hope for higher-grade units, or try for some iron.
DISCLAIMER:
now, why are archers bad :
-they are costly
-they need a costly building
-they have so low attack str.
-->-they are hard to level (never attack so few xp)
-->they cannot counter attack/repell invaders/pillagers.
-they are not so much better in defense than warriors which already get 25%CD.
(archers are 5str , 25% city def, warriors are 3str 25%CD, 4+25% with bronze)... and iron warriors beats archers any-time (save on hills).
Further in civ, esp in FFH ranged units are somehow wrong as compared with RL.
Archers in FFH are strong defender, weak attackers.
In RL archers are
-strong ambushers, / hit-and runners, strong first attackers,
-weak defenders (unless behind walls).
-archers are costly to train, but very very powerful if you can afford them, but they won't be the one assaulting walls.
so, what is the target?
-a unit more interesting.
-a unit closer to RL archers
-a unit that can get xp
-a unit that can help secure you empire
-a support unit (ie, strong but cannot take the cities alone)
I'll only speak about archer, LB being a stronger archer.
1): what did EitB do ?
EDIT : cheaper archer, cheaper archery tech.
However Axes are cheaper too so archers are not really improved.
2) what did RifE/MoM do?
-ranged attacks
-interesting disciplines.
issues:
-xp gain,
-scalability
-attack without risk is a bit imbalanced.
-stayed with the assumption that ranged are good defenders.
3)My ideas :
a) scalable/interesting
b)ambusher
nice addition : firearrows (enchantII) give +1str, +50%vs cities (total archers get +25% vs cities: flaming arrows are much more dangerous for a city than normal ones))
c) stack defender
d)good once behind fortification:
e)balance
f)what of blow-pipe / javeliner / darven slinger?
My Build 1) (untested for balance, normally XML only)
My Build 2)here
My build 3) for MoM (which has ranged attack mechanics) : here
4) OTHERS
4a)Terkhen
build 1): here
build 2) : build1) updatedhere
4b)Tasunke
build 1) here:
or same build but archer 4/5 and no "+25%vs melee"
What are your thoughts?
currently, unless you are ljos or amurite, one does not really have an interest to go to archers. unless you're screwed, without copper nor horses, you "might" want to get some archers to get defense while you turtle and hope for higher-grade units, or try for some iron.
DISCLAIMER:
Spoiler :
So here will come a HUGE wall of text, sorry for the faint of heart, but the others know I'm prone to those.
I'm just writing my "ideas" there, in hope I'll be able to play-test it in a personal modmod.
However, that one shouldn't come very soon, or maybe even never.
I'm not sure I'll have the time to learn, mod and play the mod. It's funnier (for the moment) to try to play the other mods that are updated way more quickly than I can play the games.
So as I said, I'm just here to throw my reflexion in the open, mainly in order to not forget it.
If you want to use some (which I suppose won't happen), feel free.
If you want to comment, please do so !!! I love to have discussions like this. And it would help me do the right thing if ever I mod-mod this.
I'm just writing my "ideas" there, in hope I'll be able to play-test it in a personal modmod.
However, that one shouldn't come very soon, or maybe even never.
I'm not sure I'll have the time to learn, mod and play the mod. It's funnier (for the moment) to try to play the other mods that are updated way more quickly than I can play the games.
So as I said, I'm just here to throw my reflexion in the open, mainly in order to not forget it.
If you want to use some (which I suppose won't happen), feel free.
If you want to comment, please do so !!! I love to have discussions like this. And it would help me do the right thing if ever I mod-mod this.
now, why are archers bad :
-they are costly
-they need a costly building
-they have so low attack str.
-->-they are hard to level (never attack so few xp)
-->they cannot counter attack/repell invaders/pillagers.
-they are not so much better in defense than warriors which already get 25%CD.
(archers are 5str , 25% city def, warriors are 3str 25%CD, 4+25% with bronze)... and iron warriors beats archers any-time (save on hills).
Further in civ, esp in FFH ranged units are somehow wrong as compared with RL.
Archers in FFH are strong defender, weak attackers.
In RL archers are
-strong ambushers, / hit-and runners, strong first attackers,
-weak defenders (unless behind walls).
-archers are costly to train, but very very powerful if you can afford them, but they won't be the one assaulting walls.
so, what is the target?
-a unit more interesting.
-a unit closer to RL archers
-a unit that can get xp
-a unit that can help secure you empire
-a support unit (ie, strong but cannot take the cities alone)
I'll only speak about archer, LB being a stronger archer.
1): what did EitB do ?
EDIT : cheaper archer, cheaper archery tech.
However Axes are cheaper too so archers are not really improved.
2) what did RifE/MoM do?
-ranged attacks
-interesting disciplines.
issues:
-xp gain,
-scalability
-attack without risk is a bit imbalanced.
-stayed with the assumption that ranged are good defenders.
3)My ideas :
Spoiler :
a) scalable/interesting
Spoiler :
archer can get bronze weapon
Level-up
-training yard/archery give passive xp to archers... but bigger amount
-potency-like effect for ranged units (or only for defender leaders?)
-valor-like effect on each archer
-no need: +50% withdraw (or more) gives enough easy xp: either good xp as low odds, or +1 when withdrawing.
Level-up
-training yard/archery give passive xp to archers... but bigger amount
-potency-like effect for ranged units (or only for defender leaders?)
-valor-like effect on each archer
-no need: +50% withdraw (or more) gives enough easy xp: either good xp as low odds, or +1 when withdrawing.
Spoiler :
-can do collateral (to half many units as catapults, with lower efficiency than cats) eg : 3 targets on top of the attacked unit
-50% withdrawal (so they don't die at each collateral attack)
--> my early collateral
- -25%vs cities (for cities you will still need cats or many archers)
-50% withdrawal (so they don't die at each collateral attack)
--> my early collateral
- -25%vs cities (for cities you will still need cats or many archers)
c) stack defender
Spoiler :
-increased defensive strike.
2 ways of doing it:
-just up the numbers of chance to strike
-def strike doesn't "use up" an attack : ie: one unit can DS all inter-turn if not killed AND if it had the chance.
2 ways of doing it:
-just up the numbers of chance to strike
-def strike doesn't "use up" an attack : ie: one unit can DS all inter-turn if not killed AND if it had the chance.
Spoiler :
-+50% CD
-"defender-like" : fortification bonus is doubled / tripled (ie 10 or 15% per turn until 50-75 instead of 5%per turn until 25%)
-walls (and bowyer???) give +1str each to archer units in city for as long as present in city (either 1 turn, or removed after 1move)
-forts give +1str to archer in it ?
-"defender-like" : fortification bonus is doubled / tripled (ie 10 or 15% per turn until 50-75 instead of 5%per turn until 25%)
-walls (and bowyer???) give +1str each to archer units in city for as long as present in city (either 1 turn, or removed after 1move)
-forts give +1str to archer in it ?
Spoiler :
-reduce archer str to 3/3 or 3/4 or 4/4 depending on the choices above.
invert enchant I and enchant II : +1fire str at KotE would go a long way to render archers interesting. and 25% to melee would still be useful as 25%=+1 as soon as you have 4-5str.
invert enchant I and enchant II : +1fire str at KotE would go a long way to render archers interesting. and 25% to melee would still be useful as 25%=+1 as soon as you have 4-5str.
Spoiler :
-javeliner : more ambushing effect, even less city attack, less defending strength, evne fortified:
-slinger, less 'humpf' in defense, but concussive damage, any rock is a weapon.
-blowpipe : poison damage, more ambush than defense
-slinger, less 'humpf' in defense, but concussive damage, any rock is a weapon.
-blowpipe : poison damage, more ambush than defense
Spoiler :
Archer
a)archer is 3/3 + bronze (as a warrior, less than axe), firearrow give +1str, +50%vs cities.
b)collateral (5-10% to 3 additional units), 50% withdrawal, -25%vs cities
c)unit can do DS all turn long (unless not-xml friendly)
d)+25%CD, +25% hill def, fortification bonus is TRIPLED : +100% when in city : 6str, 8 with bronze (currently, it is 5+50%(25%CD, 25%def)=7.5) less than actual, better with bronze, but it scales less well if further %promotion are gained (hill def, combatI-V…Etc) but I stated that archers are not mainly for defense.
e) archer is 3/3 and not 3/5.
Balance
Well, without playing it nor doing a mod-mod, I think this should be balanced.
-Being able to be an early collateral that can be hasted/commandoed makes it a nice alternative for cats, but less so when facing cities.
-as a collateral hit-and-runner, it can really help weaken invaders/pillager so a "weak" other unit (archer /warrior) can do the mop-up.
-if bowyer/wall/forts give +1str for 1turn (and citadel +2), you can really garrison unit and efficiently protect the surroundings: imagine a 4str unit (3/3 +bronze), buffed to 6 due to walls and bowyer in city… any unit less than 1 turn from it will be crushed: an effective iron-axe…+ can to collateral and has withdrawal rate.
However balance can be made here
-cost of unit : might have to be decreased or increased depending on use
-withdrawal rate might be too strong… however, remember that 50%withdraw might seems huge… but the unit is "only" 3-4str (not counting the fort bonus as that would need more than my xml knowledge). So generally it WILL attack with very low ratings. (and it's more costly than warriors so it won't be able to be as cost-effective as "warrior-pults' without an innate withdrawal).
-valor effect might be needed,
-invert enchant1/2 ... (same as shadow1/2 can be inverted)
-bowyer /citadel gives +1 str, walls/fort give only +1attack (same effect for anti-pillage, but less defensive str
a)archer is 3/3 + bronze (as a warrior, less than axe), firearrow give +1str, +50%vs cities.
b)collateral (5-10% to 3 additional units), 50% withdrawal, -25%vs cities
c)unit can do DS all turn long (unless not-xml friendly)
d)+25%CD, +25% hill def, fortification bonus is TRIPLED : +100% when in city : 6str, 8 with bronze (currently, it is 5+50%(25%CD, 25%def)=7.5) less than actual, better with bronze, but it scales less well if further %promotion are gained (hill def, combatI-V…Etc) but I stated that archers are not mainly for defense.
e) archer is 3/3 and not 3/5.
Spoiler :
f):
javeliner
4/3 str, 65%withdraw instead of 50%,
1 collateral targets (instead of 3)
-50%vs cities instead of -25%,
def-strike only once per turn
only normal defensive bonus (+5%/turn)
slinger
-->cheaper.
-->blitz
-->+15% against melee and mounted.
-->no increased fortification
-->less collateral : 2unit instead of 3
blowpipe
-->-1str, +2/1 poison str,
-->otherwise, same stats as javeliner.
g) LB : same but stronger :
-5/5 str + bronze/iron or 5/6
-same number of collateral but higher damage %
-higher def strike chance
-higher withdrawal : 65% or so.
javeliner
4/3 str, 65%withdraw instead of 50%,
1 collateral targets (instead of 3)
-50%vs cities instead of -25%,
def-strike only once per turn
only normal defensive bonus (+5%/turn)
slinger
-->cheaper.
-->blitz
-->+15% against melee and mounted.
-->no increased fortification
-->less collateral : 2unit instead of 3
blowpipe
-->-1str, +2/1 poison str,
-->otherwise, same stats as javeliner.
g) LB : same but stronger :
-5/5 str + bronze/iron or 5/6
-same number of collateral but higher damage %
-higher def strike chance
-higher withdrawal : 65% or so.
Well, without playing it nor doing a mod-mod, I think this should be balanced.
-Being able to be an early collateral that can be hasted/commandoed makes it a nice alternative for cats, but less so when facing cities.
-as a collateral hit-and-runner, it can really help weaken invaders/pillager so a "weak" other unit (archer /warrior) can do the mop-up.
-if bowyer/wall/forts give +1str for 1turn (and citadel +2), you can really garrison unit and efficiently protect the surroundings: imagine a 4str unit (3/3 +bronze), buffed to 6 due to walls and bowyer in city… any unit less than 1 turn from it will be crushed: an effective iron-axe…+ can to collateral and has withdrawal rate.
However balance can be made here
-cost of unit : might have to be decreased or increased depending on use
-withdrawal rate might be too strong… however, remember that 50%withdraw might seems huge… but the unit is "only" 3-4str (not counting the fort bonus as that would need more than my xml knowledge). So generally it WILL attack with very low ratings. (and it's more costly than warriors so it won't be able to be as cost-effective as "warrior-pults' without an innate withdrawal).
-valor effect might be needed,
-invert enchant1/2 ... (same as shadow1/2 can be inverted)
-bowyer /citadel gives +1 str, walls/fort give only +1attack (same effect for anti-pillage, but less defensive str
Spoiler :
another (simpler) option:
no change in mechanics :
archer is 5/5 no bronze NEW(LB is 7/7+bronze, no iron)
-25%city attack NEW
+25%CD +25%Hill str NEW(ie: +25% when present on hill, either before attack or when defending)
how would it play?
if you have no copper: YOU WANT ARCHERS :
they are stronger than no-copper axes AND more efficient than no-copper warriors (+2str)!!!
but not for city-crushing.
against cities, axes have a +50% vs cities on top of archers, which offsets the +1str.
if you have copper:
archers are competitive with bronze-warriors or bronze-axes for defensive purpose.
-greater str than bronze warriors which have the same 25%City def; same greater str useable for active defense.
-equal str than bronze axe but 25%CD and 25%Hill str that axes don't have, so better for active defense, worse for empire crunching.
if you have iron.
-warriors are more efficient (so NO-IRON-WARRIORS IS A MUST)
-axes are more powerful...
BUT enchantII equilibrates it again. (esp ifit is same number of techs from bronze weapons to iron weapons as from archer to enchant II (is it?)
Pro:
it might do the trick
it is WAY SIMPLER than above ideas
cons
-might be a bit OP at start, bronze-warrior is crushed (not in hammer efficiency), no-metal axe is crushed and no-poison blade hunter (and PB is very far away) is crushed.
-and Ljos will be insane (6/5 str at tier II.... )
-mostly, hunters (and later rangers) lose it all, (they only got +1mvt vs those new archers) and -25%vs animal is not enough as 4+25%=5.. so against animals archer is as strong as a hunter... (-25%def vs animal for archer?... not good against FoL tiger-spam)
-need an idea to render it a bit more competitive against iron-axes or iron-warriors without it being too OP against bronze-axe ...
Spoiler :
regarding ranged : I'm not sure but I think the promotions/class are kinda ok, but the main problem is related to the ranged unit themselves and it is mainly due to their slow xp gain. (in particluar : one issue with archers is that defensive xp is smaller than attacking xp + you don't chose the fight... so you get less figths and mainly best-odds fights and thus even lower xp gains.. plus you fight a lot (with ranged attack but gain no xp doing it))
for their promotions : chance for +1str +1 mvt +drill is nice as a class ; increased ranged damage is also ok.
IMO ranged only need more xp chances :
-more defensive xp
-xp during ranged attack (difficult to balance; was in MoM then removed : xp without risk)
idea : ranged attack does 2 things :
-un-fortify the unit + give him/it a temporary (until next fight, 100%removal) "defender promotion"
-ranged attacks have a 5%-20% chance of taunting the unit.
1consequence :
-the unit that used a ranged attack has a non-negligible chance to be rushed by the targeted unit ("taunt"), and to defend (defender promo), without fortification protection (unfortified).
2effects:
-if xp on ranged attacks : the xp-gain is not without risk as the unit might defend, even if not best defender of the stack... especially as in general, the best unit of the ennemy stack is targetted.. so the one most dangerous verus the ranged unit.
-if no xp on ranged attack but increased defensive xp : the archer, by doing ranged attacks, has a chance to get some xp by increasing chance to be defending + chosing the fight.
4) OTHERS
4a)Terkhen
build 1): here
Spoiler :
I agree with you, Calavente. Archers never feel like a good building choice because of the issues you mention. It is as if they are outshined by other unit types in all of the tasks they couldbe doing. With regard to Erebus in the Balance, IIRC the only change is reducing the cost of archers and dwarven slingers from 60 to 45, and reducing the cost of javelin throwers from 90 to 45.
After reading I wrote the following proposal taking into account the different options that are mentioned here.
Spoiler :Archers, Dwarven slingers and Javelin throwers can use bronze weapons.
Archery units get a collateral damage of 20% with a limit of 10% to 3 units.
Archery units get a -25% against cities.
Archery units get a inherent 20% withdrawal chance and access to the Flanking I promotion (but not to the greater ones).
Flaming arrows gives a 50% bonus against cities.
Cover I and Cover II bonus against Archery unit reduced from 40% to 30%.
Archer, Dwarven Slinger cost reduced from 60 to 45.
Javelin Thrower cost reduced from 90 to 45.
Archer combat strength reduced from 3/5 to 3/4.
Dwarven slinger combat strength reduced from 3/5 to 3/4.
Javelin thrower combat strength reduced from 4/4 to 4/3.
Longbowman combat strength reduced from 5/6 to 5/5.
Crossbowman combat strength reduced from 9/13 to 9/12.
Marksman combat strength reduced from 11/11 to 11/10.
Gargoyles get the 20% withdrawal chance, but they don't get any of the other new archery features.
I'm ommitting the extra strength on forts and cities because I think that it would require somewhat complicated DLL changes.
Spoiler :
Spells
Flaming arrows also gives a 50% bonus against cities.
Unit classes
Archery units get a collateral damage of 20% with a limit of 10% to 3 units.
Archery units get a -25% city attack.
Archery units get a inherent 20% withdrawal chance.
Archery units can access Cover I, Cover II, Formation I, Shock I and Shock II.
Archery units target melee units first.
Melee units no longer can access Cover II.
Units
Archers and Dwarven Slingers and Javelin throwers can use bronze weapons.
Archers and Dwarven Slingers cost reduced from 60 to 45 (Erebus in the Balance, already included).
Archer and Dwarven Slinger combat strength reduced from 3/5 to 3/4.
Crossbowman combat strength reduced from 9/13 to 9/12.
Firebow combat strength reduced from 5/4 to 4/4, but they start with the Flaming Arrows promotion. Firebows do not have the usual -25% city attack penalty of archery units. Firebows do not cause collateral damage.
Gargoyles get the 20% withdrawal chance, but they don't get any of the other new archery features.
Javelin Thrower cost reduced from 90 to 45 (Erebus in the Balance, already included).
Javelin Thrower combat strength reduced from 4/4 to 4/3.
Longbowman combat strength restored from 5/7 (EitB) to 5/6 (MNAI).
Marksman combat strength reduced from 11/11 to 11/10.
build 1) here:
Spoiler :
Qgqqq, they are Archers, not marchers. Axemen would be marchers
I don't mind an initial no-tech-required Training Yard that allows Archers/Axemen/Horsemen.
-----
My idea for archers is probably as thus
Civ Traits
Dexterity (ljos civ trait)
free Mobility1 and Woodsman1 promos to Archer units
Sinister (svart civ trait)
free Flanking 1 and Drill 1 promos to Recon Units
Buildings
Palisade: +10% defense, Walls: +40% defense
Promotions
Flaming Arrows (enchantment 2): +1 fire damage, +50% city attack
UnitCombatchanges
Archery Unitcombat: Access to Shock 1-2, Formation 1 only, Cover 1-2.
Units
Archer
4 str, 1 move. 20% withdrawal, access to flanking.
25% vs melee, -25% city attack, +25% city defense
free 'Defensive' promotion.
targets Melee first in combat
Longbow
7 str, 1 move. 20% withdrawal, 30% max collateral, 3 max units affected
+1 first strike, +25% defense in hills, -25% city attack
free defensive promotion
Firebow
5 str +1 fire damage, 1 move. 20% withdrawal.
+1 first strike, +25% defense in hills
free defensive promotion, flaming arrows promotion (+1 additional fire damage), fire2 promotion\
--> firebow would start 5 +2 fire, while max Longbow would be 7 +1 fire
--> firebow would have +50% attack vs cities, lacking the same city attack penalty as the longbow, yet also lacking its natural collateral. Instead FB collateral comes from its fireballs.
------------
then Axemen would have +20% city attack, and Champions would have +10% city attack
Melee units could only gain Cover1, but could get Formation 1-2.
*** was thinking of giving Archery Unitcombat a special version of Formation1 that requires combat 2, as formation 1 does currently.
And! giving normal formation 1 a boost by only requiring combat 1. That way, melee have access to formation1 earlier than archers do, in addition to being the only line with access to Formation 2.
**Note: Archers can attack melee first in combat outside cities, but longbows cannot. Why? The longbow, with its collateral, is already a strong enough contender, not to mention having 1 extra strength than a champ assuming no metals. In Civ4 (and FFH) 1 extra strength can be huge ... maybe not as huge as raw numbers, but still a pretty big deal. Having access to 7 str while being cheaper than a ranger (aka same cost as a champion) can be quite significant.
Crossbows would remain unchanged except for their free Defensive Promotion.
Marksmen wouldn't get the free defensive promo (will only get that if upgraded from archer rather than assassin) but will gain 2 natural movement instead of 1, and will have a requirement of only level4, rather than level6.
--------------
Stables: +2 mounted exp +1 trade route @HBR. Archery Range: +2 archer exp +10% defense @Archery. Barracks: +2 melee exp +10% healing rate @Bronzeworking.
These buildings would be required for the t3 and t4 units of their respective lines.
Training Yard: +1 happy w/ Nationhood, requires no tech.
allows the building of Axeman, Horseman, and Archer. (once you get their proper techs).
A specialized city can still get the respective building (Stable/Range/Barracks) if they want +2 exp for that particular unit type. These specialized buildings therefore come at the same tech that enables the t2 unit, even though they are only required for the following t3 unit and beyond.
----------
additionally catapult cost should be lowered to 60 or at least 75. (imho)
Warriors can upgrade into Archers, Axemen, and Rangers. In this way you can get a Ranger with March more easily than using a disciple of leaves.
In this way, with proper tech investment, your early game could be switching back and forth between the three 'martial' disciplines. Would imho make the early-game combat more streamlined and interesting.
generally speaking, archers would beat melee, melee would beat horses, and horses would beat archers. However, combine the boost to walls with the defensive promo, and archers would pretty much hold a walled city against anything. Walled cities would need Seige + Melee to take, at least early game. An alternate strategy would be massed mounted units with flanking promos.
In my opinion this would only serve to encourage mixed unit tactics ... at least for the nations that are in a defensive or losing position. I would consider this an improvement upon the original game.
What are your thoughts?