I have no patience for war

Running a loss at 0% slider isn't the end of the world:

1. You don't need military in all situations. If you can manage diplomacy (i.e. keep everyone friendly) then you will never be declared upon; all tiles revealed means most likely you have no barbs so even if you striking the whole game you are good.
2. Inumerable things can bring you out of zero slider loss quickly, like Golden Ages, leveraging key techs (currency, CoL) or even more interesting things (culture expansion giving you overseas trade). When running through a strike you are just expending :hammers: you have invested into troops to get out something else :)hammers: in buildings, :science:, or time to leverage trades and diplomacy).
3. You can make a good deal of money off the AI. Pillage is decent cash, tech sales can also raise a fortune, and even begging.
4. Once you delve deeper into the game mechanics you can do things like wall overflow abuse and expansive HE worker overflow. Wonder failure cash can keep you going for a LONG time (OR/Forge/Ind/Resource modifiers make wonder failure a very good way to raise cash).
 
To prove that I'm right I decided to whip out my old Vanilla Civ4 disk and tried it out.
And guess what...
I'm right.
Dust off your old Civ4 disk, and check it out.

I know I haven't scounted, but for a good reason... those barbarians are giving me all sorts of hell, but now my citizens are on strike, and I don't have a chance in hell from this point.

As you can see, I'm in a ecomonic crisis, and I'm not even the most powerful civ in the game. Alexander is.

Enclosed is the save that I was currently playing. If you managed to make it thus far past this point, and STILL WIN, please give me details... I'm looking forward for REAL proof that I'm wrong.

Edit: Do you know what the sad thing about all this is? Hyayna Capac is a FINANCIAL leader.
 
To prove that I'm right I decided to whip out my old Vanilla Civ4 disk and tried it out.
And guess what...
I'm right.
Dust off your old Civ4 disk, and check it out.

I know I haven't scounted, but for a good reason... those barbarians are giving me all sorts of hell, but now my citizens are on strike, and I don't have a chance in hell from this point.

As you can see, I'm in a ecomonic crisis, and I'm not even the most powerful civ in the game. Alexander is.

Enclosed is the save that I was currently playing. If you managed to make it thus far past this point, and STILL WIN, please give me details... I'm looking forward for REAL proof that I'm wrong.

Edit: Do you know what the sad thing about all this is? Hyayna Capac is a FINANCIAL leader.

Just played for few turns. You got too many troops. You don't need that many unless you're going to war (atleast not on noble). Many citizens are working with unimproved tiles which is very inefficient. Whip granaries or libraries instead and hire some scientists. Build some cottages on riversidetiles and put citizens to work with them.

View attachment Huayna Capac AD-0820.Civ4SavedGame
 
I'm not the best player here (I win about a half of my Monarch games, so I may not play optimally).

Opened the save. (580 AD)

Yeah, you definitely have got too many units. Sinve Huayna (aka me) sees no potential dangers, he disbands dome of his troops:

Before:

Spoiler :


After:

Spoiler :


Huayna orders the city inhabitants to start working already existing cottages:

Spoiler :




Also, why on earth so many of your workers are sleeping in cities, when there's so much cottaging to do?

Spoiler :




Huayna shakes his head at the lazy bums and sends them to build cottages.

At least, Huayna can appreciate that the previous ruler told Incan money-starved researchers to research Alphabet. Vanilla (and to some extent even BTS) AI's have a tendency to ignore Alphabet, which makes that techs a valuable trading fodder.

By the way, did you know that after Bronze Working, you can build cottages on a Forest tile, chopping the forest in the process, like that worker at Cuzco starts to do one turn after the initial save? (600 AD)
Spoiler :



(Note that all the measures Huayna took to improve the Incan kingdom's finances on the previous turn already improved the economy).

Situation at 640 AD. After running at 0% for one turn, Huayna decides that the Incan kingdom's economy can support research at 40% with a slight deficit. Also, he orders all cities that are still not building libraries to start building them (I should've done it earlier):

Spoiler :


In the meantime, things go on as usual, with the sturdy Incan workers building cottages all over the empire. But in 720 AD, Huayna finally notices that the peaceful villages in a goody hut north of Ollantaytambo are oppressed by a band of cruel barbarian warriors. He orders a group of sutrdy Incan Axemen from the city of Ollaytaytambo to deal with the problem. The villagers are so grateful to their liberators, that they share the technology of Metal Casting with them:

Spoiler :


Gee, thanks.

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(continuing...)

In the same year of 720 AD, the cottage at Cuzco is finished. Notice the hammer one-time bonus Cuzco received from the chopping, as well as the fact that with the cottage at Cuzco finished, the economy is breaking even at 40%:
Spoiler :



Next turn, the library of Cuzco is finished, Note that in that turn, the time for the slow-learning Incan scientist to learn Alphabet jumped from 20 turns straight to 17. When Huayna assigns a scientist to work in the library, 17 turns turn to 14.

Spoiler :




Huayna turns his attention to cottaging the river next to Vilcas and Huamanga: (Tiles with river get +1 commerce bonus)

Spoiler :


In the meantime, Ashoka is being mean. Proud Huayna refuses the arrogant demand:

Spoiler :


Huayna notes that the cottages in his empire start turning into hamlets. (Note the continuing growith of the economy. Next turn, I switch the science rate to 60%:)

Unfortunately, I didn't save the game at the last turn, so attached is the save for 920 AD, 1 turn before discovering Alphabet:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=205438&stc=1&d=1235921993

In 940 AD, the Incan empire finally learns the Alphabet, a tech that allows tech trading:

Spoiler :


And we start the tech whoring. In these turns, a Barbarian Swordsman, to whom I paid no attention, pillages the hamlet at Ollantaytambo back to cottage :rolleyes:. An Axeman finishes him off the next turn.

Tech whoring:

940 AD:

Spoiler :


960 AD:
Spoiler :





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960 AD, trade with Izzy for Monarchy. We are now teching Construction for the catapults, after which we may build an army and, maybe, start bashing Kublai or whatever:

Spoiler :


In techs, we are nearly on par, only Kublai and Ashoka have one-two techs on us. The tech hole is gone, thanks to the tech whoring.

Spoiler :


To sum it all up,

Incan Empire nearly at the beginning:
Spoiler :



Incan Empire in the end. I explored less then I could:
Spoiler :



Spoiler :

 

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@PreLynMax
I think you should read a couple of walkthroughs if you want to understand it better. Series games like Noble Club or Monarch Student are also incredibly valuable, because, beeing different from player to player, they cover the most strategies that could be adopted in your start location. If you really want to improve your skills, i think the best way is starting an online posted-game and playing it by pieces of, say, 100marathon (50 normal) turns.
 
To prove that I'm right I decided to whip out my old Vanilla Civ4 disk and tried it out.
And guess what...
I'm right.
Dust off your old Civ4 disk, and check it out.

I know I haven't scounted, but for a good reason... those barbarians are giving me all sorts of hell, but now my citizens are on strike, and I don't have a chance in hell from this point.

As you can see, I'm in a ecomonic crisis, and I'm not even the most powerful civ in the game. Alexander is.

Enclosed is the save that I was currently playing. If you managed to make it thus far past this point, and STILL WIN, please give me details... I'm looking forward for REAL proof that I'm wrong.

Edit: Do you know what the sad thing about all this is? Hyayna Capac is a FINANCIAL leader.
Okay, there are tons of problems I see right now.

The first is this:

Spoiler :


Here is a goody hut. It's protected by a warrior. It's visible due to culture. And you have an AXEMAN guarding the city TWO TILES AWAY. Why hasn't that been popped yet???

The second problem I see is very little scouting. Yes, the barbarians are "giving you all kinds of hell," but you should've scouted more than this during the animal era. Did you have multiple units out scouting? I usually have at least two. You also have all those axemen sitting idle in your cities. Why aren't they out and about, scouting and taking on barbs before they reach your cities?

And why did you give them the cover promotion? Are you under attack from waves of archers or something? Leave them unpromoted until you know what you're facing!

The third problem I see is sub-optimal city placement. Every single one of your cities is placed two tiles from the others. This is not a winning strategy in Civ IV. Your goal in the early REX is to work as many resources possible, while building as few cities as posible. That means sometimes your cities will overlap. But it also means that sometimes your cities will have tiles between them that no city can work.

Spoiler :


For a prime example of sub-optimal city placement, see here:

Spoiler :


Tiwanaku should've been settled on the desert tile one SE of the cows. This would've allowed you to work the Stone, as well as the cow and gold tiles.

Cori-whatever should've been settled one tile south. This would allow you to work the cows too.

You're also not Creative, why didn't you whip a Monolith in your cities to pop your borders?

The fourth problem I see your tech order:

Spoiler :


You've researched both hunting and masonry after mining, when you had no hunting resources and masonry resources in your immediate vicinity, and a single forested hill. Given that you had grassland cows in your capital, you should've researched Animal Husbandry first, and THEN mining->Bronzeworking. You've also researched Fishing, when you had no seafood in ANY of your tiles.

The fifth problem I see is not only a lack of city specializiation, but a lack of improved tiles. Let's take a look at a few of your cities:

Spoiler :


Here we see Cuzco, you're capital. You have a single building, a barracks. And it's building a Settler... which can't take advantage of a barracks. Given your low population, I'd say you've using the whip for production. A granery doubles your food production, which is critical if you're using slavery. And you're working unimproved tiles over improved resources.

And you have a SLEEPING WORKER here! One of three in your civilization!!! Why isn't this lazy bum out improving tiles and earning its pay???

And why are you building a Settler anyway? You don't need more cities. You need to use your current cities better. For example...

Spoiler :


This will allow you to get some research. The granery to double your food production for the whip, and the library so you can add two scientist specialist, which would at least give you some research, even at 0%. You don't normally want to use your capital for a GP farm, but unfortunately, it's your only city that can do so right now, and you desperately need one.

Now let's look at Tiwanaku

Spoiler :


Another city that's building a Settler, and it has Barracks. Another city that isn't properly specialized. And another city that isn't using its tiles to best advantage.

Spoiler :


Here it is afterwards. Notice that by working the gold tile, and the two cottages, you're now making a profit and still have 20% research. Notice that I put a granery in the queue for growth, and a library for both science, and to pop your borders. When your economy recovers completely, this will be your primary research city. When you get your first Great Scientist, build an acadamy here.

One more city to examine: Cori-whatever

Spoiler :


This is your best city to turn it into a military powerhouse. It has barracks, and decent production. Of course, you don't have a granery for growth, and its still working unimproved tiles, but we have something to work with.

Spoiler :


The monolith will be whipped next turn to expand your borders, and the granery will be whipped soon afterwards for growth. Just about every city in your empire needs to do this, by the way.

Some other problems I see:

You're financial, and you aren't building cottages along your rivers to take advantage of this trait.

Machu Pichu was completely worthless. It didn't bring a single resource to your empire, which means all it's doing is draining your economy. Vicas, Huamanga, and Olly-whatever could do more work than they're doing now with just two cities. Distance maintenance increases linerally. Number of cities maintenance increases roughly geometrically. Never do with seven cities what you can do with just five.

Your workers are automated??? The A.I. is an idiot when it comes to workers.

Why don't you have open borders with anyone? Trade routes are a good source of commerce! And you need to know where your trading partner's cities are (and they yours) to take advantage of them!

The game isn't broken. What's broken is how you play the game. City placement should be to capture as many resource tiles with as few cities as possible. Cities should be specialized, both through constructing buildings and improving tiles, to do one thing very well. Get your lazy army out of the cities, and out in the world to learn the lay of the land, meet the neighbors, watch for barbarians, and kill them before they can even approach your border.
 

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And why are you building a Settler anyway? You don't need more cities. You need to use your current cities better. For example...

Cuzco can also work the 2 :food: 3 :commerce: lake tile for economic recovery.
 
Cuzco can also work the 2 :food: 3 :commerce: lake tile for economic recovery.

Yep, many different strategies to recover this economy. I prefer to have Cuzco pop a great scientist, though I'm planning on building the acadamy in Cuzco istead, but working the sea is also good option for commerce.

PreLynMax,

Here's a screenshot of your empire 200 years and ten turns later:

Spoiler :


I've already managed to go from strike to +2 gold at 40%. Sailing will be researched in two turns, which will give me lighthouses, so that I can take advantage of all that water in Cuzco and Tiwakanu. (edit 2: I forgot that Tiwakanu is not on the coast, where it should've been :( )

My army is off their fat asses, so they're out doing the meet and greet with the neighbors and exploring their lands. Do you see all those glowing dots far from my borders? That's where they are. As I discover their lands, I get more and more commerce from trade routes.

I've got Cuzco producing a Great Scientist in fifteen turns for an acadamy.

I've doubled and tripled up my workers to chop trees jungle and put up cottages along rivers.

I've removed quite a few unnecessary quechas, and am building axemen, spearmen, swordsmen, and archers in my military cities (the only use for Machu Pichu).

I'm hoping in a few turns, I'll be able to bum some techs of Asoka...

edit: Oh... and I popped two goody huts. One gave me a quecha, who's also out exploring, but the other gave me gold.
 

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And another 100 years, and five turns later...

Spoiler :


+2 gold at 50%. Mathematics in five turns, on the way to Calander (so that I can use all those bananas). I've now got trade routes with three civilizations.

But as you can see, your economy was hardly in the tank. Sub-optimal tile usage, no city specialization, workers and units doing nothing and getting paid for it, and no exploration, were what was slowing you down.

Not to mention that your city placement is very, very poor. You had a lot of good land out there, and your cities are not taking advantage of it. Here's where I would've placed your cities, if I had been playing from 4000 BCE:

Spoiler :


Well... this is as far as I'd care to take this game. I just noticed that this is a huge map, and my computer will choke on it long before the game is finished.
 

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This looks like a fun one to shadow. So many fix-it opportunities!
 
PreLynMax said:
Even when you do enmass a force, you will always be thwarted be enemy forces because they have an advantage against you; they can actually build much more faster and outnumber you; you will never, ever manage to take them out.
I have two words for you: Siege Weapons.

You can take the AI's cities with absolutely no military resources or fancy units ... if you bring a big stack of siege weapons. My current game is a random map that (I think) gave me an Archipelago. I was stuck on a big island / small continent with Willem. I'm playing Peter of Russia, so neither of us have any early UUs or other military advantages for the BC years.

I decided to go for a rush, so I teched to Bronze Working ASAP. Whoops, no Copper. Okay, let's tech to Iron Working! Hmmmm, no Iron. Bummer. Do we have any Horses? Yes, we do!

Well, actually, Willem has Horses. In Amsterdam's BFC. And I don't have any. Bummer. And did I mention that we don't have any Ivory, either? How in the heck can I rush someone without any strategic resources?!?!

So I beelined Construction and started massing Catapults. I think I attacked with about nine Catapults and six Archers. The Cats knocked down Amsterdam's cultural defenses in one turn. Next turn, I selected all of the Cats, made sure that "Stack Attack" was enabled, and sent them into battle. When the dust cleared, I had lost two Cats, but all of Amsterdam's defending Archers (and one Chariot) were severely weakened. My Drill-promoted Archers cleaned up the battlefield and siezed the city.

(Drill promotions are perfect for finishing off wounded units.)

Now I have Horses ... and Amsterdam ... and a whole landmass to myself. Willem has a useless little city on a 1-tile island that he managed to settle before I got my Catapults ready to go. I sued for peace and grabbed a tech from him. (Go, go, pointy-stick research!) He can keep his silly island for now. It wasn't really a "rush" as such, but it certainly got the job done.

So, back to my main point: Siege Weapons. Bring lots of siege weapons with you, and you can kill nearly anyone. Military technology doesn't matter if you have enough siege weapons. (Within certain limits ... I wouldn't try to rush Rifles with Archers, no matter how many Catapults you have.) Military resources don't matter if you have enough siege weapons. Almost nothing matters if you have enough siege weapons!

When in doubt, bring more siege weapons. :trouble:
 
Especially in Civ4 Vanilla, where siege has the ability to kill.
 
What a pity PreLynMax has decided to ignore the good advice given him above and starts another thread to continue moaning about how 'warring is broken' instead.

There's none so blind etc etc.
 
That is a shame - this thread is filled with great advice and a good walk through by Lone Wolf repairing the broken economy.
 
Just did some testing and when you stack attack the game gives preference to collateral damage units, then units with withdrawal chances, then best combat odds. I assume the hierarchy within each category follows this structure as well.

So there's really never any need to do each attack individually if you're confident your stack has the ability to overpower the target.

This is interesting regarding the order.

So let's say I have five siege units - would it use all 5?

What if after two, it swung the odds to my favor that my melee unites would win 80+% of the time. Depending on the composition of my stack, I'd be inclined to not want to suicide any more siege, and have regular units take over.

Would it be better to leave seige as it's own stack?

Sarge:gp:
 
This is interesting regarding the order.

So let's say I have five siege units - would it use all 5?

What if after two, it swung the odds to my favor that my melee unites would win 80+% of the time. Depending on the composition of my stack, I'd be inclined to not want to suicide any more siege, and have regular units take over.

Would it be better to leave seige as it's own stack?

Sarge:gp:

Sarge,


Short answer: As with everything in CivIV, it depends.

Long answer: For example, I tend to make two or three early military cities. One with all my settled Great Generals (after my Medic 3 unit), and the other one or two with just a Barracks. The city with the settled GGs will typically pump out my main assault units, and the other one or two cities will produce my catapults and city defenders. Due to this, I tend to have a low amount of Catapults, and will start attacking at a mugh lower percentage, putting those GGs to use. However, if my assaulting units suffer heavy casuelties I will instead suicide more Catapults into the city.
 
Keshi

Thanks, but I'm not sure that answers my question. I probably didn't phrase it well...

If one is using stack attack, and lets say that the stack has 5 Cats and 6 Swords/2 Shock Axe/1 Spear.

From what I've read in this thread, it sounds like if I use the Stack Attack option, the computer will use up all my siege, before moving to my other units. (If I'm wrong, please correct me now and we'll move on).

From experience I know that i can send in 2 or 3, and soften up the enemy enough that my Swords will have, while perhaps not 90% odds, they'll have "acceptable" odds that I'd send them in, hoping to save my cats for the next city.

So I'm wondering if I should operate my siege individually and use my SoD (minus siege) with the Stack Attack option... In theory saving me from suiciding my 5 cats... does that make sense?

Sarge:gp:
 
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