Ideas for Incentives for Civs to play more according to the lore

[Lone Wolf]

I think that there should be incentives for the civs to play more according to their lore, but without totally restricting alternative options. So, discuss how the game can be changed to achieve that goal (with strategical considerations being secondary to the lore ones).

1) Make Priests/Eidolons/Paladins abandon you with alignment shift .
2) Make the Elohim unable to build other civ's palaces. Also, make their Tolerant trait not apply to the Infernals.
3) Make Devouts and Lightbringers upgrade only to priests/high priests of non-evil religions.
4) Penalties to the Elohim for high Armageddon count. A sorta reverse Stigmata promotion, perhaps?

Any other ideas?

 

[Jabie]

Use the quests system, but only open up specific quests to specific civs. E.g. Lanun who build seven harbours get +1 move to all their naval units. Elohim who cast their AC lowering ritual X times get +1 Happiness from all their Temples.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think that there should be incentives for the civs to play more according to their lore, but without totally restricting alternative options. So, discuss how the game can be changed to achieve that goal (with strategical considerations being secondary to the lore ones).

1) Make Priests/Eidolons/Paladins abandon you with alignment shift .
2) Make the Elohim unable to build other civ's palaces. Also, make their Tolerant trait not apply to the Infernals.
3) Make Devouts and Lightbringers upgrade only to priests/high priests of non-evil religions.
4) Penalties to the Elohim for high Armageddon count. A sorta reverse Stigmata promotion, perhaps?

Any other ideas?

In addition to making units abandon you based on alignment, I'd limit which priests can upgrade to Eidolons/Paladins/Druids. The extreme alignments could get an extra upgrade. In my version, I usually do it this way:

Confessor -> Prior or Paladin or Knight
Vicar -> Luridus or Paladin or Druid (Note: I'm not a big fan of any Empyrean priest names, and may change them)
Stonewarden -> Runekeeper or Paladin or Druid
Cultist -> Speaker or Druid or Eidolon
(Shadow -> Eidolon that keeps its invisibility and marksman, Horse Archer -> Shadowrider)
Ritualist -> Profane or Eidolon or Archmage



The Tolerant Trait has already been blocked from letting you build other civs' palaces, so the first half of #2 is covered.


Frankly, I see no reason why the Elohim should have the Tolerant Trait. It would thematically fit the Kuriotates or Grigori better. FF's Conqueror Trait for Decius is a better use of the assimilation code.

It could be interesting if the Mercurians had something like the Tolerant/Conqueror code that made the mortals of their empire keep the abilities of the civ that summoned them.


According to the lore, Lightbringers were the Malakim holy men whom Varn Gossam united and taught to worship Lugus. Although the Empyrean was not technically founded as an organized religion until Varn's vision at the Mirror of Heaven revealed its central dogmas, Lightbringers were Priests of Lugus since their inception and so should really only be tied to the Empyrean. I don't like Lightbringers being a seperate unit that can upgrade to a disciple of any religion. I think they should be an Ecclesiatic or Vicar UU, maybe with access to Sun Magic in addition to the usual priestly abilities. Sticking closer to the lore, their real strength lies in Divination. I'd like to allow them to perform aircraft-like recon missions (without the animations showing them flying), but it seems allowing lands units to do so will require some SDK changes.


Devouts should be limited to good/neutral religions. Also, I'd probably either move them from Poisons to Way of the Wise or give them an ability to cure poisoned units.


I don't really like giving the Elohim an AC weakness.


One thing I would recommend is to get rid of the hell terrain mechanism that depends on alignment. I like making it so that hell recedes faster from good lands, but can still spread there regardless of AC. I often make hell not spread every turn, but have a random chance based on the AC. Hell terrain can also be more actively spread by making certain promotions (such as Demon, Stigmata, Unholy Taint, and Entropy III) raise the plot counters of their tiles. An evil army will spread hell in its path, even in good lands. I also like making the strongest demons much stronger, but making all non-hell terrains impassible for them. The Infernals would need to corrupt the world before they can conquer it. Since Hyborem is not fallen like Basium, he is limited to following the letter of the Compact, even as he tramples on its intent. He is cannot touch the righteous, at least unless the righteous put themselves at risk by dwelling among the wicked.



The Elohim should not have access to Berserkers. Rage is the Antitheses of the Sirona. Rather than make the Rage technology useless, I'd prefer to give them a unit that uses the understanding of anger to help disturbed find peace. I call this Berserker UU the Paraclete, although I'm not fully sold on the name. It is a Monk upgrade with lower strength, Spirit affinity (Spirit is made to do Holy Damage), the ability to target/defend first against Ira, Odio, Chaos Marauders, and the Avatar of Wrath, and a bonus against each unit. It has a spell that can remove Crazed, Enraged, and Burning Blood from any unit nearby, regardless of who owns it.



Sometimes I give the Bannor a Patriarch as a Prior UU. The exact difference between the 2 units may vary. I usually move Unyielding Order from Order/Divine/Channeling 3 to Law 3, and give Priors a new spell. Sometimes their new spell is Pillar of Fire (removed from Chalid, as the Empyrean is too militant and in the lore it was high priests of Junil who tied using this against the Luonnatar), sometimes a new Banish spell to be used against demons (it may kill, immobilize, make the target run away, or transport it back to the owner's capital). If I give one one to Priors I may yet Patriarchs use both. Alternately, I might make Patriarchs be Priors with Law III. Sometimes I'll bring back the old Holy War effect and let Bannor Patriarchs force other Order civs to join their crusades.

 

[Bill Bisco]

I think that there should be incentives for the civs to play more according to their lore, but without totally restricting alternative options. So, discuss how the game can be changed to achieve that goal (with strategical considerations being secondary to the lore ones).

1) Make Priests/Eidolons/Paladins abandon you with alignment shift .
2) Make the Elohim unable to build other civ's palaces. Also, make their Tolerant trait not apply to the Infernals.
3) Make Devouts and Lightbringers upgrade only to priests/high priests of non-evil religions.
4) Penalties to the Elohim for high Armageddon count. A sorta reverse Stigmata promotion, perhaps?

Any other ideas?

Bonuses not Penalties is an ideal way to get the results you want.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Bonuses not Penalties is an ideal way to get the results you want.

That thread is meant to place the considerations of lore geeks first, and, as such, consider both penalties and bonuses. Personally, I don't find abandonment annoying, but the forbidden upgrades are certainly restrictive.

Speaking of bonuses, giving religious UU's to some civs (as per MC's suggestion) is a good idea.

I agree that a positive effect for the Elohim for the low Armageddon is better then a penalty for high. When both a bonus and a penalty can achieve the same effect, a bonus is certainly preferable.

 

[Jabie]

I agree that a positive effect for the Elohim for the low Armageddon is better then a penalty for high. When both a bonus and a penalty can achieve the same effect, a bonus is certainly preferable.

Low Armageddon positive effect could be a diplomacy bonus with Good and Neutral Civs. At AC 30+ the bonus is lost for Neutral Civs. At 50+ it is lost for Good Civs.

 

[Lone Wolf]

The Grigori should have incentives for Culture and Luonnotar victory. Make the Luonnotars able to build the first levels of the Altar and give the Grigori some culture-enchancing buildings.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Maybe switching to Esus only should allow you to keep Priests.

 

[Luckmann]

[...]
Speaking of bonuses, giving religious UU's to some civs (as per MC's suggestion) is a good idea.

[...]

While it'd require fairly extensive work, one thing I've always wanted are heroes dependant on Civilization & Religion. For example, Calabim with FoL would/should get different religious heroes than Svartalfar or Ljosalfar as FoL.

I've never liked the fact that FoL & RoK have dwarven and elven heroes. It's fine as long as you're a dwarf or an elf, but it just doesn't sit well with me as soon as I'm a human civ. I'd love to try out something crazy like FoL Luchiurp, but suddently having tree-hugging elves running around feels wierd.

I want tree-hugging dwarves, dammit.

In most cases, the suggestion is somewhat moot - most religious heroes are already human, after all. But I'd more specificly want racial religious heroes. An orcish counterpart of Rosier the Fallen for Clan AV. A dwarven counterpart of Chalid for Luchiurp Emps. Dwarven treehuggers for Khazad FoL.

Although I suppose that at one point here, you've stepped away from trying to force civs to play according to the lore, and made allowances for an expanded lore that allows more diversity. Including those dirty, greedy ljosalfar dirt-farmers that worship Kilmorph.

 

[Tholal]

While it'd require fairly extensive work

Interesting idea!

I think most of the work would be trying to come up with a bunch of new heroes that are interesting and semi-balanced. Unit Defines should already have tags for limiting units to certain civs and religions.

 

[Luckmann]

Interesting idea!

I think most of the work would be trying to come up with a bunch of new heroes that are interesting and semi-balanced. Unit Defines should already have tags for limiting units to certain civs and religions.

Oh, I'm sure it's fairly easy to do - technically speaking. The work would be in coming up with the new heroes, balancing them, doing the actual coding - and making the new models.

Of these things, the only one I can possibly do myself is the first one.

 

[razzach]

Low Armageddon positive effect could be a diplomacy bonus with Good and Neutral Civs. At AC 30+ the bonus is lost for Neutral Civs. At 50+ it is lost for Good Civs.

I don't find this applicable at all. Remember, at high AC all the good civs should ally together to combat Hyborem/demons, not begin to fight each other.

Also, a bonus for the Elohim at low levels? But the AC start at low levels. Better for them to have a penalty to at high AC to provide them an incentive to keep the AC low. Not immediately giving them an added bonus at the start of the game when they didnt even do anything. Besides this penalty effect already happens to them the Pacifist promotion if I recall, to force them to stay peaceful (supposedly)...

I suggest all Elohim units lose the Homeland promotion at AC 40 and gain the Pacifist promotion even in their own borders at AC 70. This would make the Elohim players play more according to Lore (preserving everything they can when the Armageddon is coming and try to lower the AC again) while not overly restrictive if they want to be Evil.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I've never liked the fact that FoL & RoK have dwarven and elven heroes.

Kithra Kyriel is half-elven, half-human. Yvain currently is a weird treant.

Besides this penalty effect already happens to them the Pacifist promotion if I recall, to force them to stay peaceful (supposedly)...

That is in FF, I think, not in FfH. It'd be a good idea to make it apply in FfH, too.

Going the way of Orbis and giving the Elohim a culture bonus while at peace is a good idea too.

What can we do with the Svartalfar to make them more inclined to switching to Esus?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Kithra Kyriel was born to an Elven father and Human Mother (the opposite of how those relationships have usually worked since at least Tokien's time), and seemed to be a very non-impressive half elf as a child. You might even say he inherited the weaknesses of both races rather than their strengths. However, once Hemah met and dreamed about him, he became a great hero, with all the virtues of both races. I image him now having all the grace and pound per pound strength of an elven warrior, but with the greater physical stature of an human.




I've never liked the change to make Yvain a Treant, partially because I don't think the Warhammer graphics they used for him really fit well with FfH's style.

Treant- At times the atrocities against the forest became so pronounced that the forest will raise up to defend itself. The type of tree that becomes a treant doesn’t matter, in some forests giant flowers or other plants can become equally animated. It is the forest spirit that provides the animation, not the physical tree.

It seems to me that a treant should not be a hero, as it is really just a puppet of the forest spirit and is abandoned when the threat is over. I guess you could argue that Yvain is the spirit of the Umbrawood, but I don't like that explanation. It also does not fit his pedia entry very well.

Yvain's eccentric nature leads him across Erebus, visiting secluded glades, talking to exotic animals and chasing nymphs across pebbled river banks.

Even some within the Fellowship question if Yvain has the sincerity his respected stature would seem to require of him, but none doubt that he is the favored child of Cernunnos. It was Yvain that first dreamed of the Ancient Forests and who is the first to face every newly discovered wilderness. To everyone who delights in finding the wonders of this world, know that Yvain has walked through these places before, and that they are all the more amazing because of it.

If Yvain were the Umbrawood itself, then how would anyone question the sincerity of his love for the forest? This text is not fitting for a Treant at all. In fairness, it seems Kael just forgot to update the pedia entry since he was retconned from being a Woodelf.

Kael said that the "favored child of Cernunnos" part was always meant to be figurative and I assumed it was that way at first, but after reading the Beltaine Cycle I decided it should be made literal. Yvain would be much better if he were actually a physical descendant of the God of Nature, preferably the last child he fathered before he left to attend the meeting at the Seven Pines as Sucellus's archangel and then had to leave his elven family under the terms of The Compact. As a literal son of Cernnunos, Yvain would of course be a Satyr. I think this fits him perfectly, especially when you consider the "chasing nymphs" part. Satyrs are known to be irresponsible, strong, highly competitive creatures that mellow with age and tend to transition into the role fo a druid. I like to think that Yvain is the oldest living Satyr and thus the highest ranking of all druids, but as the youngest and likely weakest of the first generation satyrs and as the baby he was spoiled and never learned to be as responsible as his brothers did. I like to think that Yvain was conceived by Gower's mother shortly after Gower's death, and that his mother likely did not survive childbirth or died shortly afterward. Gower was seen as both a replacement for Cernunnos's favorite son, and the only thing he had left of his favorite wife. It is known that Cernunnos had 3 Elven wives, but we don't really know anything about them. In my view, in addition to Gower's and Yvain's mother his other two wives were Arendel Phaedra and Faeryl Viconia. I had always thought it odd that the Elven queens had no consorts, but if they got the position though marriage to an Archangel then it makes sense. The death of his favorite wife made his surviving wives compete for his affections even more, and made the jealousy between them even worse. Given that Faeryl is clearly more attractive, I suspect that Arendel may have gained favoritism by offering to adopt and raise Yvain. Faeryl likely resented Arendel for what she saw as a cheap trick to become the favorite, and may have been planning to make such an offer herself for that reason even though it was widely known that she never particularly liked children. The conflict between the two predates the Compact, but only got worse when Cernunnos asked his wives to share rule over the Elven people in his absence.


I also think that Satyr should be made a racial promotion, which in addition to giving forest benefits slightly stronger than those of the Elven promotions would give the Mezmerize Animal and a new Mezmerize Beasts spell when combined with Subdue Animal and Sudue Beasts (respectively). The Satyr unit should also be able to upgrade to either a Druid or Beastmaster, and should have unique racial graphics for each.




Having Bambur as a hero of Kilmorph makes sense, as he is essentially the founder of the faith. Arthendain, on the other hand, does not fit so well. I see absolutely nothing in the lore that connects him to Kilmorph, apart from being a member of the dwarven race which traditionally follows the Earthmother. In his pedia we see that when he died, his soul was not going to Kilmorph's vault to be with his forefathers but was headed to Arawn's Netherworld until he was claimed by Sucellus. In the current version he may not recognize it, but he serves the God of Life. The proper religion for him is The Untouched, but that faith is not implemented in FfH. In my opinion, Arthendain should be a non-religious her that anyone can build, much like the Baron Duin Halfmorn. Technically RoK already has another hero in The Mithril Golem, but that is really hard to get so they could use a replacement. (Also, the Mithril Golem really needs to me made Magic Immune and either get a large strength increase or Earth Affinity. I'd also be ok with giving it a unitcombat, saying that rather than just enchanting it Kilmorph ordered one of her angels to possess the form or better yet breathed life into it in the same manner that Mulcarn did to Barnaxus or that she had done to the first Dwarves according to legend. It would also be nice if it dropped a Pieces of the Mithril Golem equipment and could be rebuilt once killed in a matter like that which brings Barnaxus back.)

I'd also consider simply switching the roles of Arthendain and Maros. Maras, as the Umberguard, held the hereditary position of being the greatest champion of Kilmorph's faith. Of course, Maros himself became an apostate when the Dwarves made peace with some demons. He left his people, swore himself to the service of Junil, and joined the Bannor in their crusades.

 

[readercolin]

What can we do with the Svartalfar to make them more inclined to switching to Esus?

Make Esus actually useful?

-Colin

 

[Opera]

We (as in #erebus) had a discussion about 'Historical Bonuses'. For those who know Rhye's and Fall of Civilizations (RFC), it's like the Unique Historical Victories; but instead of providing victory it provides interesting bonuses for the player.

For example, founding Esus with the Svartalfar could reward you with a Golden Age or something like that. Some people had a lot of ideas about these Historical Bonuses...

 

[Luckmann]

Bambur as a hero of Kilmorph makes sense, as long as you're actually dwarven and found Kilmorph. As soon as you deviate from the lore - and be fair, any sandbox game will, it kinda stops. As I said, my idea probably ends up - at some point - making allowances for an expanded lore allowing higher diversity, rather than actually getting people to play according to the established lore.

If we suppose that in a given game, the Ljosalfar were to be the founders of the Runes of Kilmorph as an organized religion, we can assume that it wouldn't be logical for them to have the dwarven Bambur as a hero since he is unlikely to have been directly involved with the founding. Canonically, we know that he was - but canonically, we also know that the Ljosalfar did not found RoK. Should we then restict them from doing so? Restrict the Calabim & Sidar from Empyrean? Restrict the Bannor & Elohim from AV?

I realize that I'm pulling this more and more off track into what I'd like to call Counter-Canon Canon, or "Open Canon". Not that it'll ever actually be Canon, since we're in feature-lock and everything. So it's sorta a moot point.

And even if Bambur makes sense as a RoK hero because he's the canonical founder, does he make sense if we pretend that in any one game, despite game mechanics saying otherwise, a supposed elven civilization have adopted RoK? Wouldn't it be more plausible to assume that they'd have their own RoK representative from their own culture? Their own kind of canonical elven RoK 'papal figure' fullfilling roughly the same role as a canonical Bambur to the dwarves?

Bambur is just used as an example here. It could apply to any number of religion-civilization combinations, including Khazadi Kithra Kyriel even if he happens to be a half-elf-half-human.

We (as in #erebus) had a discussion about 'Historical Bonuses'. For those who know Rhye's and Fall of Civilizations (RFC), it's like the Unique Historical Victories; but instead of providing victory it provides interesting bonuses for the player.

For example, founding Esus with the Svartalfar could reward you with a Golden Age or something like that. Some people had a lot of ideas about these Historical Bonuses...

A great idea overall, although I'd be hesitant of the Esus-Founding/Golden Age. I think that'd just compound the problem of founding Esus being great, but actually adopting it being rubbish.

Almost all the benefits of Esus can be had without ever adopting it - just founding it and/or getting the Nox Noctis. The last thing Esus needs is another reason to be founded early and then abandoned - no matter what civilization it'd apply to.

 

[Lone Wolf]

If we suppose that in a given game, the Ljosalfar were to be the founders of the Runes of Kilmorph as an organized religion, we can assume that it wouldn't be logical for them to have the dwarven Bambur as a hero since he is unlikely to have been directly involved with the founding.

I always interpreted founding a religion in-game as being to first to turn it into an organized cult, not to actually found it.

 

[Luckmann]

I always interpreted founding a religion in-game as being to first to turn it into an organized cult, not to actually found it.

Exactly. Hence why I said "founders of the Runes of Kilmorph as an organized religion".

 

[Lone Wolf]

Well, Bambur just stopped in Evermore one day and explained to the Elves that if they like trees, they should also like the Earth, who gives life to these trees and venerate the goddess of the Earth.