Iggy the Idiot - Prince /Monarch training

ShiVvV · Jun 15, 2014

I have the 1130AD save from Htadus. Nice going, lots of conquest cities!

Turnset Plan

War
Units SW of the Adrianople/Antioch/Nicaea line continue vs Justi's capitol.
WE's in vicinity of Gem city towards Tokugawa.

Constantinople will be bombarded immediately and then attacked probably 4 turns into set once WE's have reached city. A good portion of our cats can move towards Toku once bombarded down btw while keeping enough cats for suicide attacks at Constantinople.
I will attempt to steal tech via espionage vs Justi before capitol falls. (soon our EP's will be wasted once Toku/Justi eliminated).
Peace deal with Justi will entail his island city plus whatever else. In my opinion Feudalism is not as high a priority to get in peace deal as is MC, Music, Drama...we'll see what's on table after tech steal attempt and his capitol falls.

I assume we have committed to eliminating both Justi and Toku. So I'm seeing this turnset as taking Justi's capitol then peace deal leaving him one city on the continent. Forces repositioned as quickly as possible for immediate DoW on Toku to take him out. My turnset should end with war vs Toku again and ticker expiring on peace with Justi.

Tech Path
We're getting paper. The GScientist will generate in our capitol in 6 turns; should put a bulb into Education I think. We should commit to running 2 science specialists in the capitol until we get an additional GScientist.

Our research should be focused on getting Optics so that we can see where we stand in Lib race.

Economy
We'll be forced to build wealth in 4 cities or so for forseeable future. The shrine in Constantinople will help us a lot.

I think we should get the NE of our continent settled asap. I attached a pic showing what I think would be good city locations below. We need to cottage up that river which runs to the north from Coppersilk.

If no objections I plan on settling 2 new cities this set at the spots marked #1 and #2.
Please comment on this settling proposal.

Wonders/etc
Marblefur has been set to work on Parthenon (8 turns).

Generally I dislike building the NE in capitol city; but this very well may be a case where it behooves us to do so. The GLibrary is there and it will speed GP-generation. I'd be fine with NE in Kyoto though. The downside of building the NE in capitol is it will disallow building Wall Street there later as I assume we'll have Oxford + NE in capitol. If we do get the Buddhist shrine in Constantinople (are they guaranteed to not be destroyed upon capture???) then Wall Street can go in Constantinople.

I agree that UoS should be next build in our capitol.

Maybe Justi will have time to build the AP for us (he'll have Theo this turn) while we're eliminating Toku.

Summary
I think we're at point in game where wars are obviously well in hand. Soon we'll have no trading partners hence optics->caravels so we're back in tech trading game. Time to start thinking more long term I believe.

I think this is good point to pause for comment from you guys. Am especially interested in Folklet's take on things as he's not had chance to contribute lately.

I do not plan on starting my set for another 24-48 hours to allow for discussion (currently 19:15 GMT, Sunday, June 15th.)

Proposed new city sites in NE below

Spoiler :

Htadus · Jun 15, 2014

ShiVvV said:
I have the 1130AD save from Htadus. Nice going, lots of conquest cities!Thanks but it was easy with a huge army.

Turnset Plan

War
Units SW of the Adrianople/Antioch/Nicaea line continue vs Justi's capitol.
WE's in vicinity of Gem city towards Tokugawa.I am sure we can divert a good chunk of units very soon.

Constantinople will be bombarded immediately and then attacked probably 4 turns into set once WE's have reached city. A good portion of our cats can move towards Toku once bombarded down btw while keeping enough cats for suicide attacks at Constantinople. You do not need WE. We captured that hill city without a single WE and with cats and axes. I would bombard 1 or 2 turns max before taking it on T2 or T3. The best option is to use the spy stationed there to revolt.
I will attempt to steal tech via espionage vs Justi before capitol falls. (soon our EP's will be wasted once Toku/Justi eliminated).If you choose not to use the Spy for revolution then go ahead.
Peace deal with Justi will entail his island city plus whatever else. In my opinion Feudalism is not as high a priority to get in peace deal as is MC, Music, Drama...we'll see what's on table after tech steal attempt and his capitol falls.Feud is a very valuable tech for us since it enable 2 civic options and on the path to Banking for Merc. See which option will be the best based on how many turns it save us from getting the techs. MC was a 3 turn tech when I checked last.

I assume we have committed to eliminating both Justi and Toku. So I'm seeing this turnset as taking Justi's capitol then peace deal leaving him one city on the continent. Forces repositioned as quickly as possible for immediate DoW on Toku to take him out. My turnset should end with war vs Toku again and ticker expiring on peace with Justi. Sounds good.

Tech Path
We're getting paper. The GScientist will generate in our capitol in 6 turns; should put a bulb into Education I think. We should commit to running 2 science specialists in the capitol until we get an additional GScientist. I am positive that we have 2 scientists in the capital and that is all we are allowed at the moment.

Our research should be focused on getting Optics so that we can see where we stand in Lib race. We should not have any real competition unless Mansa and Hanny is having a love fest somewhere out there. Some AI just founded Taoism. That is our next major target.

Economy
We'll be forced to build wealth in 4 cities or so for forseeable future. The shrine in Constantinople will help us a lot. We can help Const become even better with a lib and a Market asap

I think we should get the NE of our continent settled asap. I attached a pic showing what I think would be good city locations below. We need to cottage up that river which runs to the north from Coppersilk. Good idea except the cottage part. I only kept building cottages because I could not farms without fresh water. Now it should be farms first and let the cities grow to its max and then switch some farms to workshops.

If no objections I plan on settling 2 new cities this set at the spots marked #1 and #2.
Please comment on this settling proposal. I prefer building #4 first to get a coastal hammer monster up and ready to build a caravel and more as Clive had mentioned.

Wonders/etc
Marblefur has been set to work on Parthenon (8 turns). This is not a good use of hammers. It is a marginal wonder and best captured and the 50% boost is not a game winner. As a builder player it is hard for me to say this.

Generally I dislike building the NE in capitol city; but this very well may be a case where it behooves us to do so. It is almost always is the best city and the best civers in the past and current use it. The GLibrary is there and it will speed GP-generation. I'd be fine with NE in Kyoto though. The downside of building the NE in capitol is it will disallow building Wall Street there later as I assume we'll have Oxford + NE in capitol. This is not a problem as you notice there is a better WS city in this game. If we do get the Buddhist shrine in Constantinople (are they guaranteed to not be destroyed upon capture???) then Wall Street can go in Constantinople. We should be done with this game way before this wonder is available.

I agree that UoS should be next build in our capitol. Or NE.

Maybe Justi will have time to build the AP for us (he'll have Theo this turn) while we're eliminating Toku. There will be no chance of this happening unless we get it for peace and build it ourselves. I am good with that.

Summary
I think we're at point in game where wars are obviously well in hand. Soon we'll have no trading partners hence optics->caravels so we're back in tech trading game. Time to start thinking more long term I believe.Once we are done with Toku, all our cities should build wealth to get the slider up to 100% if possible. Our current tech goal should be Optics after Edu. There are a few cities that deserve a Uni in this game. I would not even bother with Edu in this game if it was not for Lib.

I think this is good point to pause for comment from you guys. Am especially interested in Folklet's take on things as he's not had chance to contribute lately.

I do not plan on starting my set for another 24-48 hours to allow for discussion (currently 19:15 GMT, Sunday, June 15th.)

Proposed new city sites in NE below

Five letters.

Folket · Jun 16, 2014

I find that building Parthenon for fail gold make perfect sense to me.

Revolt with spy and use catapults to hurt defenders.

Htadus · Jun 16, 2014

Folket said:
I find that building Parthenon for fail gold make perfect sense to me. If we are doing this for fail gold, it makes sense but we have no idea when that might be. AI are notorious for assigning wonders to 1 or 2 hammer cities some times. But I have nothing against fail gold as long as we do not need to build gold at the moment.

Revolt with spy and use catapults to hurt defenders.

Yes, however we do not need to use too many cats unless we are trying to unload maintenance cost.

ShiVvV · Jun 16, 2014

OK. Thanks for the responses.

War
@Htadus. I can see what you're saying about the WE's not being necessary. I consider warring to be a weaker aspect of my game so I see LB's vs axes/pults and immediately assume stronger units needed. But with so many catapults at our disposal, the 5 axes or so in vicinity of Justi's capitol should be enough to proceed with speed. I'm beginning to conclude best use of spy is to cause revolt and attack on my 2nd turn.

Economy
@Htadus. OK. This is where I'd really like more detail on your thoughts about why cottaging those two riverside cities is not the best play. I see all that river-green and my ingrained civ-subconscious reaction is cottage! So, is that not best because:
1. The cities are being founded kinda mid-gamish and the time needed for the cottages to mature is too long in this particular game?
2. We'll eventually be running SP and the population + hammmers (watermills/workshops) will be more needed instead of the commerce?\
3. Would you support cottaging-up the #1 city and farming/production the rest? Or is this half-measures?

Wonders/Failgold
@Htadus, @Folket. My intent was to actually build the Parthenon (not failgold it) for faster GP generation while we repair our economy--basically bulb techs and MoM enhanced golden ages. If consensus is that Parth. is marginal, then am happy failgolding it. For that matter, can failgold the NE in a city or two while the capitol is building UoS.

Tech Path
@Htadus. So, Edu before Optics?

Htadus · Jun 16, 2014

ShiVvV said:
OK. Thanks for the responses.

War
@Htadus. I can see what you're saying about the WE's not being necessary. I consider warring to be a weaker aspect of my game so I see LB's vs axes/pults and immediately assume stronger units needed. But with so many catapults at our disposal, the 5 axes or so in vicinity of Justi's capitol should be enough to proceed with speed. I'm beginning to conclude best use of spy is to cause revolt and attack on my 2nd turn.
You read me correctly. If this was a beginning of a war, I would advise against attacking LB defended city with just cats and ancient metal units unless it get us a valuable resource. But we are at a stage that we are getting ready for a peaceful period and the loss of units to speed up our progress sooner is good.

Economy
@Htadus. OK. This is where I'd really like more detail on your thoughts about why cottaging those two riverside cities is not the best play. I see all that river-green and my ingrained civ-subconscious reaction is cottage! So, is that not best because:
1. The cities are being founded kinda mid-gamish and the time needed for the cottages to mature is too long in this particular game? This is a key reason.
2. We'll eventually be running SP and the population + hammmers (watermills/workshops) will be more needed instead of the commerce?\We may get to this and it is very powerful.
3. Would you support cottaging-up the #1 city and farming/production the rest? Or is this half-measures?It would be half-measures.

The whole idea is going back to food is king concept. First thing is that large pop cities are more powerful. Farming will get a city growing at a rapid rate after the Granary is done. A hammer city only need a granary, Forge and CH before it becomes productive for the empire. 3 whips asap and the city is an asset. And if the game heads to Assembly Line, then 2 more buildings will make it a monster hammer city. Every city can be a 2x hammer multiplier city with just easily accessible buildings .

Wonders/Failgold
@Htadus, @Folket. My intent was to actually build the Parthenon (not failgold it) for faster GP generation while we repair our economy--basically bulb techs and MoM enhanced golden ages. If consensus is that Parth. is marginal, then am happy failgolding it. For that matter, can failgold the NE in a city or two while the capitol is building UoS. I build the Parth in every culture game I play. I build it in the Oracle city and add other GA favoring wonders like SoZ, NE and others. It gives me better chances of getting GA's for obvious reasons. So this is hard for me to say no to building the Parth. So lets look at the numbers.

First the capital makes 14 GPPpt. After current GS is done we need 300 GPP to get the next GP. (Side note: It is well past 1000AD and we are still working on our 2nd GP. Wow , this is very weak play for me. This is what will keep a player at Noble forever. )

Ok back to numbers, as is, the capital will take 22 turns (300/14) for the next GP with out adding more specialists. Under same conditions;
With NE in the capital, it will take 11 turns (300/(14*2)),
With Parth it will take 15 turns (300/(14*1.5)), and
With both buildings it will take about 9 turns (300/(14*2.5).

That is about 20% better return w.r.t. GPP. and the end game Ok I changed my mind. I am Pro Parth as of now. See usually by now I am working on my 4th or 5th GP and the return is not even 10% faster w.r.t. the end game.

Yes I am positive that I have in the past made fail gold with N. Wonders.

Tech Path
@Htadus. So, Edu before Optics?

Yes. Lets just shut down research after Paper and until we get the next GS. Then go 100% to finish Edu and then speed to Optics.

EDIT: One thing I just noted. Lets use the wheat tile in the capital to let it grow 3 more pop.

Sir Clive · Jun 17, 2014

Sorry - been madly busy with work / real life so haven't had any time to read and appreciate the sterling effort made by all.

As said, my normal game plan is peaceful so I would naturally be going for Optics or Edu now and my inclination would have been Optics as I am always keen to meet everyone as quickly as possible.

I do see that we need to grow the economy though so Edu first seems good to me !

pigswill · Jun 17, 2014

The downside of NE in capital is that you reduce bureaucracy bonus by running specialists instead of working tiles.

Parthenon produces more gppt than Glib once you're running more than six scientists (3*2).

We'll need philosophy for liberalism of course.

ShiVvV · Jun 17, 2014

Thanks for the input and discussion guys.

Wonders/Failgold
@Htadus, @Folket. My intent was to actually build the Parthenon (not failgold it) for faster GP generation while we repair our economy--basically bulb techs and MoM enhanced golden ages. If consensus is that Parth. is marginal, then am happy failgolding it. For that matter, can failgold the NE in a city or two while the capitol is building UoS. I build the Parth in every culture game I play. I build it in the Oracle city and add other GA favoring wonders like SoZ, NE and others. It gives me better chances of getting GA's for obvious reasons. So this is hard for me to say no to building the Parth. So lets look at the numbers.

First the capital makes 14 GPPpt. After current GS is done we need 300 GPP to get the next GP. (Side note: It is well past 1000AD and we are still working on our 2nd GP. Wow , this is very weak play for me. This is what will keep a player at Noble forever. )

Ok back to numbers, as is, the capital will take 22 turns (300/14) for the next GP with out adding more specialists. Under same conditions;
With NE in the capital, it will take 11 turns (300/(14*2)),
With Parth it will take 15 turns (300/(14*1.5)), and
With both buildings it will take about 9 turns (300/(14*2.5).

That is about 20% better return w.r.t. GPP. and the end game Ok I changed my mind. I am Pro Parth as of now. See usually by now I am working on my 4th or 5th GP and the return is not even 10% faster w.r.t. the end game.Could you explain the '20% better return wrt GPP and the end game' when you have the time and inclination, Htadus. Not sure I'm following you here.

Also, once built, those two wonders contribute an additional (2+1)GPPpt further decreasing the time required. I realize your analysis was not meant to be exact, Htadus, but rather illustrative. I appreciate your taking the time to explain your reasoning.

@pigswill--OK, I must be completely dense here. I'm not understanding this statement of yours at all, "Parthenon produces more gppt than Glib once you're running more than six scientists (3*2)." Could you explain?

I will be able to knock my turnset out today and should have the save posted in let's say....12 hrs from now.

Htadus · Jun 17, 2014

pigswill said:
The downside of NE in capital is that you reduce bureaucracy bonus by running specialists instead of working tiles. To an extent you are right. But this capital is not really without food either. This capital can run 4-6 specialist at size 18-19. And it can do it quite early. It need not work all 21 tiles. Also the GPP from wonders will become a factor.

Parthenon produces more gppt than Glib once you're running more than six scientists (3*2). Since Parthenon only give 3 GPP (2*1.5) on its own, I am guessing this statement is implying that the 1.5 boost from the Parthenon on Kyoto specialist is greater than the 8 GPP the GLib gives.

Those 6 specialist will become effectively 9 specialist. That is 27 GPP.

Similarly G. Lib's 8 GPP become 12 GPP. But add to that 4 specialist to the capital, which is easily done, the GPPpt becomes 30 GPP. Add the 2 GPP from UoS, it become 33 GPP.

Also the NE will make the 10 GPP from G.Lib and UoS in essence a 20 GPP all on its own without a single specialists.

So if we build the NE in the capital and run say just 4 specialists, then the total GPPpt with the boost from Parthenon becomes 57.5 GPP ((8+2+1+12)*2.5). Lets say 57

To match that in Kyoto, we will need to run 7.27 Specialists [((57/2.5)-1)/3]. Basically 7 to 8 specialists. Which also mean that we need Casts System or a Lib and another specialist building in Kyoto run 7 specialists. The specialist bias will likely be an Artist and thus a GA.

This bring me to the reason why a capital is considered the default city for NE in not very specialized games. It is because it has a tendency to have a few WW and nearly all the needed buildings completed to run specialists while other cities are just in its infancy. Early GP's are way more important than late GP's.

We'll need philosophy for liberalism of course.

Yes that is true. But I would not use a GS for that at this point of the game and on a low level game. I would rather run a GAge which is more valuable in a large empire such as ours right now.

@ShivVv, let me see if I can explain that. Please ask again if I fail to do so.

The 20% comment wrt GPP was about the benefit of NE alone versus the NE and Parthenon combo. The boost from Parthenon to the NE city is about 20% faster GP's. It will be the same at all time and the nth GP generation. But the number of turns saved by the GP bulb changes depending on the number of turns played. Early GP's save more turns than late GP's. So, getting those GP's earlier in the game will speed the game up.

My statement about the effect on the end game, 20%, is not very accurate since the number of turns reduced by the early GP's varies significantly (but will definitely shorten the number of turns to the planned VC). I am an xOTM player and pulling off a the CS sling have shown how significantly the games turn out. Similarly there are players who manage to generate several GS's by 0 to 500 AD and manage to have Astronomy bulbed. You can imagine how fast those players finish their Conq or Domi or even other VC.s due to being able to reach far off AI while they are still developing and from extra trade money and what not's.

So if one of those players were to build/capture part around say 1100 AD, the effects of those late GP's (say GP#6 and up) are not that great. In many of my games, a GS will save 3 turns from Biology because my science rate is high. Even a G Age will save only about 3-4 turns to the next tech. The main reason for this is I am running well develop empires that generate 1-5k bpt and that is either very close to how many bulbs a GP can generate or much better than a GP.

So what I was basically saying is that our Parthenon scenario will boost our GP production by about 20% in our NE city based on other GPP generators. This 20% will save us a curtain amount of turns now based on our current tech rate to get to the next tech. However if we, were playing an advanced GP bulbing game all this time and we are working on the next GP ,which needs say 600 GPP, then (a) it will take a much longer time to generate the GP and (b) the number of turn it would save for the next bulb possibile tech is less significant as we go into wealth building and a high science slider. As a result the number of turns saved toward the end game is less significant from GP's.

I hope I did not mess this explanation.

ShiVvV · Jun 17, 2014

OK, my turnset is complete.

The play-by-play

Spoiler :

Significant Events
Justi down to his last island city, which he just couldn't part with. Will be a minor headache capturing but we have galleys/trireme cover en route and only a single sword in city now, on flat terrain.

The AP has been built, Hindu

We teched Edu(1 GS bulb) & Philo. Got Drama, MC, Feud, and Meditation from peace deal with Justi. Currently researching Machinery at 0%.

We did get the Parthenon and the UnivofSankore

Notes for next player
1. Do NOT complete the National Epic in Goldenclam. We want the NE in our capitol once forge finishes. We will have two cities worth of failgold when the NE is completed btw. I'm thinking it'll be about 400ish gold in our coffers which will come in handy if we need an emergency slider boost, i.e. a Lib race scare. We are still flying blind unfortunately regarding the Lib race.

2. Not sure if we have a Confucian monastery anywhere; we may want to build one but not a big priority.

3. Moai can be built somewhere still (we have no failgold invested anywhere I don't believe). Also Shweggy can be built.

4. Our illustrious army is assembled at Satsuma. Or most of it is, it's actually probably overkill. But it should work out about right as you'll have 4 turns of peace left with Justi when you begin and it'll take time to maneuver our navy down there. Of our 5 galleys only 3 are remotely in position/heading towards Justi's last city; we have 2 triremes near Toku with another in production. We do have a spy in Satsuma but is doubtful whether he'll be able to do anything useful before Toku exits stage left; just a heads up.

5. There is an annoying barb galley (of course) hovering off our NE, not yet settled, coast. Our two galleys nearby have been playing cat n mouse with him.

6. Justi has two triremes and a galley puttering around on our southern coast.

@all--Are we trying to get Astronomy from Lib?
@all--Instead of teching Mach>Optics immediately after finishing Education I teched Philo instead (Taoism was founded early in my turnset). Not sure if this was best but it's done.
@Clive--seeing as this is your game, I thought it only fitting that you should administer the coup de grace to Toku :king:

ShiVvV · Jun 18, 2014

Htadus said:
Yes that is true. But I would not use a GS for that at this point of the game and on a low level game. I would rather run a GAge which is more valuable in a large empire such as ours right now.

@ShivVv, let me see if I can explain that. Please ask again if I fail to do so.

The 20% comment wrt GPP was about the benefit of NE alone versus the NE and Parthenon combo. The boost from Parthenon to the NE city is about 20% faster GP's. It will be the same at all time and the nth GP generation. But the number of turns saved by the GP bulb changes depending on the number of turns played. Early GP's save more turns than late GP's. So, getting those GP's earlier in the game will speed the game up. So, let me see if I have this. The 20% overall GP generation rate factor is a 'time-averaged, rule of thumb type value' that reflects the fixed 50% increase from the Parthenon as it is in effect diminished over time by the increasing GPP cost of each subsequent GP generated?

My statement about the effect on the end game, 20%, is not very accurate since the number of turns reduced by the early GP's varies significantly (but will definitely shorten the number of turns to the planned VC). I am an xOTM player and pulling off a the CS sling have shown how significantly the games turn out. Similarly there are players who manage to generate several GS's by 0 to 500 AD and manage to have Astronomy bulbed. You can imagine how fast those players finish their Conq or Domi or even other VC.s due to being able to reach far off AI while they are still developing and from extra trade money and what not's. Yes, I can see how the earlier the GPs are generated, the more pronounced their bulbing effectiveness is. The earlier they are generated, the quicker the techs come, or the GA's and the snowball's momentum builds.

So if one of those players were to build/capture part around say 1100 AD, the effects of those late GP's (say GP#6 and up) are not that great. In many of my games, a GS will save 3 turns from Biology because my science rate is high. Even a G Age will save only about 3-4 turns to the next tech. The main reason for this is I am running well develop empires that generate 1-5k bpt and that is either very close to how many bulbs a GP can generate or much better than a GP.Yes. Have experienced similar situations, but not sure I've ever hit 5k bpt w/o building a helluva lot of wealth. I know I've been in neighborhood of 3k bpt though.

So what I was basically saying is that our Parthenon scenario will boost our GP production by about 20% in our NE city based on other GPP generators. This 20% will save us a curtain amount of turns now based on our current tech rate to get to the next tech. However if we, were playing an advanced GP bulbing game all this time and we are working on the next GP ,which needs say 600 GPP, then (a) it will take a much longer time to generate the GP and (b) the number of turn it would save for the next bulb possibile tech is less significant as we go into wealth building and a high science slider. As a result the number of turns saved toward the end game is less significant from GP's.

I hope I did not mess this explanation.

Thanks for that Htadus. As you've probably surmised I tend to play the cottage economy builder game. Which gets me stuck (often I'm looking at Diplo or Space victory conditions, and not really by choice...it just seems that's the strange attractor all my games gravitate towards!...when what I really want to do is thump AI heads and I'm not very good at it).

Oh...one other thing.....in a response to one of pigswill's posts you stated the following: To match that in Kyoto, we will need to run 7.27 Specialists [((57/2.5)-1)/3]. I headbashed the wall for a while but did that equation start off something like the following?

N = number of specialists needed to run; 57 = # of GPPs required to reach
2.5 = GPP multiplier effect of NE (in city) and Parthenon (anywhere)

So, I started with this...
57 = 2.5(3N + 1) where the 3N + 1 term is the GPPs generated per specialist plus the 1 GPP from the NE building.

Which reduces to your equation.

pigswill · Jun 18, 2014

In terms of spare food Kyoto is clearly the place to build NE (corn+3clams gives +15 food = 7 specialists at pop11).

Warfare is just mopping up we don't really need any military techs at the moment.

Going lib>astro is clearly tempting for overseas trade routes and new resources. I'm also wondering about nationalism for Taj.

We're on 47% land the rest of the continent will get us into low 50s so we'll need to go overseas for domination.

If we avoid machinery for now can we part bulb lib then go machinery>optics>finish lib.

ShiVvV · Jun 18, 2014

pigswill said:
In terms of spare food Kyoto is clearly the place to build NE (corn+3clams gives +15 food = 7 specialists at pop11).Honestly, pigswill, this is my 'natural' inclination also. By that I mean I tend to avoid putting the NE in my capitol because I'm usually reserving it for Oxford and WS.

Warfare is just mopping up we don't really need any military techs at the moment.

Going lib>astro is clearly tempting for overseas trade routes and new resources. I'm also wondering about nationalism for Taj. This is how I was thinking. That is why I put our research on Machinery at end of turnset. To get us to optics. I was hoping for a juicier tech than Nationalism from winning Lib.

We're on 47% land the rest of the continent will get us into low 50s so we'll need to go overseas for domination.

If we avoid machinery for now can we part bulb lib then go machinery>optics>finish lib.This is where my knowledge of bulbing paths fails me (yes even with BUG). Does this mean that if we were to tech machinery, that a GS wouldn't be able to bulb Lib but would bulb optics instead?

About the whole Kyoto vs Capitol NE build site:
1. Yes, Kyoto has much more food. But, it has fewer embedded GPPs than the Capitol. Capitol has the GLib (8 GPPs) and the UoS (2 GPPs) but the GLib is subject to becoming obsolete in not too distant future.

2. In Kyoto's favor however--it does have the Hanging Gardens already. Another wonder or two, in addition to the NE would swing the balance towards building NE in Kyoto. I could certainly see us running like 4 merchants, 3 scientists in Kyoto eventually.

I'm good with the NE in either city. I really don't have the expertise that you guys do to decide what's best long term--just thinking out loud here.

Htadus · Jun 18, 2014

ShiVvV said:
Thanks for that Htadus. As you've probably surmised I tend to play the cottage economy builder game. Which gets me stuck (often I'm looking at Diplo or Space victory conditions, and not really by choice...it just seems that's the strange attractor all my games gravitate towards!...when what I really want to do is thump AI heads and I'm not very good at it). I am a Space game player too and like about 3-4powerful science cities (cottage cities). Usually build at least 2 on my own but prefer 3 and then capture mature AI cottage cites to supplement. But it is the hammer cities that enable me to get 3k and up amount of hammers being converted to bpt.

Oh...one other thing.....in a response to one of pigswill's posts you stated the following: To match that in Kyoto, we will need to run 7.27 Specialists [((57/2.5)-1)/3]. I headbashed the wall for a while but did that equation start off something like the following?

N = number of specialists needed to run; 57 = # of GPPs required to reach
2.5 = GPP multiplier effect of NE (in city) and Parthenon (anywhere)

So, I started with this...
57 = 2.5(3N + 1) where the 3N + 1 term is the GPPs generated per specialist plus the 1 GPP from the NE building.

Which reduces to your equation.

Yup that was the same route I took.

pigswill said:
In terms of spare food Kyoto is clearly the place to build NE (corn+3clams gives +15 food = 7 specialists at pop11). Yes it is an excellent city for that but when will we be in CS? But I am not going to push for the capital. I know it works very well for me and I will stick to that on my games but for this game either is fine as long as we can get the benefit of NE sooner than later.

Warfare is just mopping up we don't really need any military techs at the moment. We do not know that yet w.r.t. the end game.

Going lib>astro is clearly tempting for overseas trade routes and new resources. I'm also wondering about nationalism for Taj. Astro bulbing is an option for us. I would never consider Liberating Nationalism on this low level. At least MT.

We're on 47% land the rest of the continent will get us into low 50s so we'll need to go overseas for domination.

If we avoid machinery for now can we part bulb lib then go machinery>optics>finish lib.

With our population size and this level, it is quite possible that the GS will bulb entire tech. Been there and done that several times.

@ShivVv.

Do you remember how many bulbs the GS provided toward the Education?

ShiVvV · Jun 19, 2014

@ShivVv.

Do you remember how many bulbs the GS provided toward the Education?

I'm thinking maybe 2100ish...heck coulda been 2300....not sure.

pigswill · Jun 19, 2014

I must admit it didn't occur to me that a GS could bulb all of lib but then I can't remember ever going for lib with such a large empire.

I'm not thinking of going lib>nat. I was wondering about researching nat sooner rather than later.

Kyoto could probably do with a (whipped) forge before theatre.

Htadus · Jun 20, 2014

So, let me see if I have this. The 20% overall GP generation rate factor is a 'time-averaged, rule of thumb type value' that reflects the fixed 50% increase from the Parthenon as it is in effect diminished over time by the increasing GPP cost of each subsequent GP generated?

I did not clearly stated how I came up with that percentage. But there is an effect from the nth GP being generated.

First, this 20% boost is for any NE city. But the comparison is the effects of the Parthenon being built/owned by the civ.
Second, the 50% boost from the Parthenon get diluted numerically due to other modifiers such as the NE, Golden Ages and Pacifism because the affect is directly applied to the base GPP.

The NE city without Parthenon is
Total GPP = Base GPP (1+1) = 2.0 GPP.

The 50% boost affect all cities like this.
Total GPP = base GPP(1+0.5) = 1.5 GPP.

For the NE city,
Total GPP = Base GPP(1+1+0.5) = 2.5 GPP.

The 20% boost comes from (2.5-2.0)/2.5 = 0.2 = 20%.

Since this is a numerical factor that has no time component in the equation. It will stay true though out the game.

However, if we look at the number of turns to generate a GP, it is easy to see that each subsequent GP will require more turns and the 50% boost from the Parthenon has diminishing effect on number of turns toward the end game.

If our 5th. 10th and 11th GP's get the boost from the Parthenon, then it will take a 25base GPP city with a NE
500/25*2.5 = 8 turns, 1000/25*2.5 = 16 turns and 1200/25*2.5 = 19.2 =>20 turns respectively. The building the Parthenon for the 8 turn GP is much better than building it for the 16 turn GP because the early GP's are golden. I hope I explained myself better this time.

pigswill said:
I must admit it didn't occur to me that a GS could bulb all of lib but then I can't remember ever going for lib with such a large empire. In a current game I am playing on Emperor level game, I came 300 bulbs short of fully bulbing Lib. 20+ cities. But I want to be clear that I am pro giving the idea of part bulbing Lib by delaying Machinery. If it does not work due to fully bulbing Lib, we should have MT available as our Liberation option.

I'm not thinking of going lib>nat. I was wondering about researching nat sooner rather than later. Fully agree.

Kyoto could probably do with a (whipped) forge before theatre.

Yes and a Library and Market as well before the theater. Market before Lib preferably.

ShiVvV · Jun 20, 2014

The 20% boost comes from (2.5-2.0)/2.5 = 0.2 = 20% Ahh...got it. Thanks

I looked at an autosave I had just before the GS Education bulb. The yield was 2,118 beakers towards Educ. by GS bulb.

Beakers needed for Lib is 2,093; so another GS would completely finish it.

BTW...so, the size of one's empire (population) affects the beaker yield of bulbs?

Sir Clive · Jun 20, 2014

It's been a mad week with the World Cup and very busy at work.

But now England are out

and it's the weekend hopefully I will have time to post some observations tomorrow .......

Iggy the Idiot - Prince /Monarch training

Warlord

A and L's dad

Deity

A and L's dad

Warlord

A and L's dad

King

fly (one day)

Warlord

A and L's dad

Warlord

Warlord

fly (one day)

Warlord

A and L's dad

Warlord

fly (one day)

A and L's dad

Warlord

King

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