I feel that stonehenge is only really useful if you lack faith, and a positive you will be able to found a religion, seeing that you build stonehenge every game, and that some games one would have lots of faith, i think that might be a misplay on your part and the hammers are more worth in archer/settler etc.
I'm in the habit of building Stonehenge EVERY game
- Thread starter Astennu
- Start date
Hagia Sophia just works better for me, because it's on the way to where I need to be anyway. Pottery, Writing, Calendar, if you can pick up GL great, if not, doesn't matter, you're heading to Philosophy anyway for the NC. NC > any early wonder. At that point you're just D&P away from Theology and if you feel you need a religion (because of lack of neighbors that will apply pressure to your city), then you can get Hagia Sophia there with little to no effort.
But the reality is that you don't need to found a religion every game. You probably need A religion, but you don't need to waste early game production on it. That is far better spent getting the NC down and getting the tech lead that comes along with it.
But the reality is that you don't need to found a religion every game. You probably need A religion, but you don't need to waste early game production on it. That is far better spent getting the NC down and getting the tech lead that comes along with it.
Wodan
Deity
If you're waiting until you build Hagia Sophia to found a religion, you're going to have crappy picks of religious tenets. I can see why you're so lackadaisical about the benefits of religion.
Considering Tithe is one of the best beliefs and the AI never takes it, I don't consider it a problem at all.
And considering I save up faith to use on GE's and GS's (And to a lesser extent musicians if the game calls for it), I really have no need to be buying terrible faith buildings in every city.
And considering you almost always have an AI who's going to spread his religion to your cities whether you want him to or not, what's the point of fighting about it?
Now, if this were a multiplayer discussion, that's different. But I assume it's not, and therefore the above applies in basically every game.
bcaiko
Emperor
Yeah, I sincerely doubt the OP is the only player to do this. In fact, I bet he or she is part of a rather large crowd. Stonehenge is an easy way to ensure yourself a religion, even if you don't have a faith-based Civ, any religious natural wonders or city-states nearby, or aren't on tundra or desert.
If you really need a religion, I don't blame someone for beelining Stonehenge.
If you really need a religion, I don't blame someone for beelining Stonehenge.
Stonehenge is a great wonder, not just a huge boost in faith but a free Wonder in another 100 turns.
But yes religion can be overrated, especially if you are on the higher difficulties where you get aggressively converted by AIs but the best religion is Byzantium, choose 2 founder beliefs & take Unity of the Prophets as a Reformation. You can now easily convert the world and with 2 founders the rewards are going to be good.
But yes religion can be overrated, especially if you are on the higher difficulties where you get aggressively converted by AIs but the best religion is Byzantium, choose 2 founder beliefs & take Unity of the Prophets as a Reformation. You can now easily convert the world and with 2 founders the rewards are going to be good.
Wodan
Deity
wow, a lot going on in your post. Let me try to address each point.
So you don't value Religious Center or anything except Tithe?
As for the assertion that religious buildings are terrible... that seems crazy to me. Let's use Pagoda as a baseline: the
pays for the building cost, so the point about "saving faith" doesn't wash. We get the +2 
and +2 
for free. And the comment about AIs spreading religion to your cities seems nonsensical. The question was about using Hagia Sophia to found a religion. If you're not going to bother with founding, then sure, I can see that. I've done that many times. But then why waste the time to get Theology and the 300
on HS?Oh, and, if you founded a religion, the AI pretty much doesn't spread to your cities unless you first spread to his. The AI is pretty good about respecting you until you diss him.
Thus far I am able to consistently win every Immortal game I play. Will likely move up to Deity very soon.
The thing I don't like about building an early settler is that it takes quite a while when a city is below 10 population. I like to grow a city to some decent production then build a settler in like 7-8 turns (epic speed) rather than 15+ in the early game.
In my recent England game I managed to snag Pisa with the GE from Stonehenge and will also snag Sistine with the free GE. These wonders will provide a massive boost to my Empire which I might have missed had I not got Stonehenge.
As for building an extra archer, I think that if I survive the early game then it is irrelevant how many archers I build
no worries... AI never takes +15% growth at peace which is THE best pick there is.
AI also does not seem to like +1% production/believer as well. No need to spread... just those two in your holy city usually is worth the 300 hammers invested. (plus you get a free temple); and if you really have crappy picks (you play on huge maps and everything else nice is taken) just plant that prophet...
And really, HS is doable in around t80-90 and unless all AIs went piety, if you manage to build it, I'm sure you can find something nice.
Granted, Stonehenge is not a bad wonder to beeline at lower levels, but +5 faith just doesn't really cut it for what you're sacrificing early game (you're busy with granaries, workers, archers) especially when you have such a big chance to fail at deity.
If you want GE pt that much the pyras (just get liberty opener if you must) are a much safer option.
Since I usually go tall in my games I only have to maintain my religion in 5-6 cities which is possible even on Immortal. As a result I get about 40g per turn from Tithe, 15% production in every city from RC and usually an extra 15% growth from Swords into Plowshares not to mention the extra growth from Fertility Rites.
GhostSalsa
Emperor
Yes, pretty much. As in true in most games but then flagrantly false on the one odd game. I've had to DOW post turn-200 to kill prophets next to my cities on 3 occasions I mean what even it's the Industrial Era
Wodan
Deity
Occasionally the AI does scouting with Prophets, so just because you see a GP wandering around doesn't mean he's going to spread to your city. But yeah, in the odd game I have had the AI spread to me out of the blue. It's happened to me maybe twice in all the games I've played where I founded a religion and didn't spread to him first.
Wodan
Deity
Agree with all this except:
Growth at peace would depend on game strat. If the plan is to be at peace the whole game, and you don't have aggressive neighbors (Shaka etc.) then sure, that's a good one to pick.
Production is always good, but again I dunno if it's worth the opportunity cost plus the real cost to get the tech and Hagia just to get +% production. A typical city midgame might have 7 or 8 believers, so 8% out of, say, 30
is only +2.4 per city. Not too shabby, but, again, worth it to divert your early game to get Theology and spend 300 ? Debatable.Well, if you don't do Stonehenge then you have to build shrines/temples in multiple cities early game when (in your words) you'd rather be building granaries, archers, etc. Or, again, divert to Theo + Hagia. So, again, debatable, at best.
Just my two cents!
kaspergm
Deity
- Joined
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2 x Shrines + 2 x Temples = 280 production / 6 faith (requires 2 cities)
3 x Shrines + 1 x Temple = 220 production / 5 faith (requires 3 cities)
5 x Shrines = 200 production / 5 faith (requires 5 cities)
Stonehenge = 185 production / 5 faith (requires 1 city)
Add to this 5 or 6 GPT upkeep for religious buildings vs. 0 GPT and +1 GEP from Stonehenge.
Doesn't seem like that bad an investment (unless of course someone snipes it from you
).
3 x Shrines + 1 x Temple = 220 production / 5 faith (requires 3 cities)
5 x Shrines = 200 production / 5 faith (requires 5 cities)
Stonehenge = 185 production / 5 faith (requires 1 city)
Add to this 5 or 6 GPT upkeep for religious buildings vs. 0 GPT and +1 GEP from Stonehenge.
Doesn't seem like that bad an investment (unless of course someone snipes it from you
).
Wodan
Deity
Doesn't seem like that bad an investment (unless of course someone snipes it from you
Are you playing devil's advocate or did you just convince yourself?
Man, I wish I could play in your games. Every game I've got Ethopia telling me that they will continue to spread the truth to my unwashed masses. I don't missionary spam, because like I said, I save them for great people, and I usually can't be bothered to find a route to get to city states that doesn't get them captured by barbarians.
If that's your experience, it differs 100% from mine. I've got way better things to be building early game than worry about religion. Also, Theology isn't much of a detour. You're going to education anyway, aren't you? No? Then you must be going for composite/xbows, in which case you clearly don't need a religion because you've got bigger concerns. I can get Tithe and the 15% production bonus even at the last religion, so I really don't care about much more than that. 15% growth not at war means I've gotta not be at war, and that's only half under my control.
Also, lol at your "baseline" building being the best one there is. That's not a baseline. If you don't get the first religion, there's a chance you don't get Pagodas. Then what are you stuck with?
The exact same beliefs I have, at the 7th or 8th pick.
GhostSalsa
Emperor
Haha nah I think it means they are. Usually the second they get near your city the first time, as in this Moriarte LP.
Anyway aside from committing to reloads where I otherwise wouldn't do them for any other reason every time "uncertain prophet scouts" appear, the prophets need to die. Both my most extreme cases (prophets from one civ in the first, two at the same time in the second, post turn-200) were when I had extremely high pantheon yield from desert faith or sacred path and could not tolerate conversion.
(So much is being discussed in this thread at once now.)
---
Regarding Hagia, I would almost never build it. Almost the only time I beeline Theology before Civil Service is as Maya, in which case I don't need Hagia because I founded early with pyramids - I get Borobudur
Agree with all this except:
Production is always good, but again I dunno if it's worth the opportunity cost plus the real cost to get the tech and Hagia just to get +% production. A typical city midgame might have 7 or 8 believers, so 8% out of, say, 30
Well, if you don't do Stonehenge then you have to build shrines/temples in multiple cities early game when (in your words) you'd rather be building granaries, archers, etc. Or, again, divert to Theo + Hagia. So, again, debatable, at best.
Just my two cents!
If your capitol is still at 7-8 pop (and not in its teens) by the time theology comes around, you're obviously doing something wrong. Even with no spread religion at all, your capitol should be growing at a rate that you'll get +15% virtually all game. If you can't do this you have no business on deity.
And theology is in education's line anyway, it's not a bad tech to beeline (esp as Poland if you plan to open double tree this is the fastest way to enter medieval); I wonder what most players would want to tech instead? civil service (but the AI loves that line and you basically have a 0.1% chance to get Chichen on deity anyway)??? (Civil Service also requires a handful of techs, which might be useless at that point in the game, such as horseback riding and whatnot; more than theology)
If I don't do Stonehenge then I'd build ONE shrine in my cap, that's it. If I'm lucky I'll get my pantheon, hopefully a faith based one (and starts where you cannot get faith-based pantheons generally I give up on religion altogether on deity; unless I have something outrageous like 8 citrus+wheat for sun god or 8 seafood tiles for god of the sea, then I beeline for Hagia like crazy)
kaspergm
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2012
- Messages
- 5,578
No, I think I've been an open member of the Stonehenge fan club from the beginning, and I would probably build Stonehenge even if the numbers didn't look so good simply for the GE point because I'm also member of the GE fan club - but when that's said, I just don't understand how people say Stonehenge is a bad investment compared to building religious buildings. Sure, I can see why it might be better to build granaries or libraries or whatever instead, but then you will forego the early religion, and then you have a different scenario.Are you playing devil's advocate or did you just convince yourself?
Full disclosure I am also a member of the SH/GE fan club!
Wow! I did not realize that the numbers are that good! Thanks for that.
I think the more legitimate concerns are that:
- Stonehenge does not guarantee founding a religion. (It does guarantee a pantheon, and is often be enough on its own to found a religion, but its still a gamble.)
- The combination of one (or two) religious CS allies, ruins, and pantheon choice are more likely to let you found a religion than Stonehenge on its own. While somewhat luck based, you should be scouting anyway, so the opportunity costs of such a strategy are minimal (especially as compared to going after a wonder).
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