Immortal has become tougher.

[Txurce]

What I have had an impossible time with on Immortal after multiple games is runaway civs on my own continent. More better units, decently arrayed, seem impossible to beat. If I avoid a runaway on my own continent and play a balanced game, then I can win regularly. It's a huge discrepancy.

I've also noticed that at least on this level the AI had no problem declaring war without any reds - and the same goes for denouncing. Even when I do something like wipe out a civ or expand too quickly, I sometimes don't get the red comment. I wonder if this is intended.

 

[Buccaneer]

What I have had an impossible time with on Immortal after multiple games is runaway civs on my own continent. More better units, decently arrayed, seem impossible to beat. If I avoid a runaway on my own continent and play a balanced game, then I can win regularly. It's a huge discrepancy.

I've also noticed that at least on this level the AI had no problem declaring war without any reds - and the same goes for denouncing. Even when I do something like wipe out a civ or expand too quickly, I sometimes don't get the red comment. I wonder if this is intended.

Hmmm...twice now I have had a runaway or at least a civ #1 in all demographics on my continent in my last two Immortal games and I simply beat them by other means: diplomacy and tonight, space. Plus, I had a DoF with those civs all game long and constantly traded with them. Kept them happy while I beat them with their gold and emphasized techs until I leapfrogged them towards the end.

 

[Txurce]

Hmmm...twice now I have had a runaway or at least a civ #1 in all demographics on my continent in my last two Immortal games and I simply beat them by other means: diplomacy and tonight, space. Plus, I had a DoF with those civs all game long and constantly traded with them. Kept them happy while I beat them with their gold and emphasized techs until I leapfrogged them towards the end.

I have a feeling we're talking about different types of runaway civs. I'm talking about a civ that takes over the entire continent, and could care less about DoF's. Sooner or later, it knocks on your door, with units an era ahead due to its huge scientific lead. And at that point, there's been nothing I could do about it. About all I haven't tried is building a very large army - mainly due to a worry that the gold and hammer expenditure will set me back even further in the science race (which is how I would intend to win as well).

 

[loki75]

I only play pangaea. Whereas it prevents (sometime) runaway civs, I think it's more exciting to actually be on your toe the whole game because everyone can come and get you easily!

The only thing I regret from the patch so far is the return of the ugly city spamming.
I have seen the huns populating _every_ 1 tile-islands on the map, even the ones which were two tiles away from the pole. This is completely ridiculous.
I spend considerable time shuffling my units to protect my borders in order to prevent the AI to encroach in my land, which is boring and frustrating.

 

[Buccaneer]

I have a feeling we're talking about different types of runaway civs. I'm talking about a civ that takes over the entire continent, and could care less about DoF's. Sooner or later, it knocks on your door, with units an era ahead due to its huge scientific lead. And at that point, there's been nothing I could do about it. About all I haven't tried is building a very large army - mainly due to a worry that the gold and hammer expenditure will set me back even further in the science race (which is how I would intend to win as well).

I understand, but regardless if a runaway is completely dominating another continent, it will tend not to (but not always) 1) affect your continent, 2) get the techs and build spaceship parts effectively, 3) use their gold to aggressively secure the city-states votes or 4) know how to win culturally in a timely manner. Besides the opportunity you have to snipe their capital, you can beat them in other victories too.

I only play pangaea. Whereas it prevents (sometime) runaway civs, I think it's more exciting to actually be on your toe the whole game because everyone can come and get you easily!

The only thing I regret from the patch so far is the return of the ugly city spamming.
I have seen the huns populating _every_ 1 tile-islands on the map, even the ones which were two tiles away from the pole. This is completely ridiculous.
I spend considerable time shuffling my units to protect my borders in order to prevent the AI to encroach in my land, which is boring and frustrating.

ICS/Wide is a very viable option for human players too, esp. on pangaea. Why would you prevent your opponents the same strategy? Every civ game has a civ or two that populate such island. It's even advisable for you to do so if they have a resource. Plus if you don't have happiness issues, which the AI does not have, there is no reason not to spam cities for the extra research and culture (and whatever bonuses social policies, wonders and religions provide).

 

[Txurce]

I understand, but regardless if a runaway is completely dominating another continent, it will tend not to (but not always) 1) affect your continent, 2) get the techs and build spaceship parts effectively, 3) use their gold to aggressively secure the city-states votes or 4) know how to win culturally in a timely manner. Besides the opportunity you have to snipe their capital, you can beat them in other victories too.

I agree about aggressive runaways on the other continent. I have lost one space race in a game where I had poor science, but otherwise win these.

What I have had an impossible time with on Immortal after multiple games is runaway civs on my own continent. More better units, decently arrayed, seem impossible to beat. If I avoid a runaway on my own continent and play a balanced game, then I can win regularly. It's a huge discrepancy.

 

[ense7en]

I'm having a really tough time w/ Immortal on Pangea maps.

The AI is just savage, and if you have nearby neighbors, it can be a really tough start.

My current game was a gangbang from three sides from the very beginning.

Carthage, Babylon, and America.

Due to horrible terrain was able to hold them off, and am trying to see if i can pull off some kinda miracle in this game.

They love to forward settle RIGHT ON YOU.

Spoiler :

 

[loki75]

I'm having a really tough time w/ Immortal on Pangea maps.

The AI is just savage, and if you have nearby neighbors, it can be a really tough start.

My current game was a gangbang from three sides from the very beginning.

Carthage, Babylon, and America.

Due to horrible terrain was able to hold them off, and am trying to see if i can pull off some kinda miracle in this game.

They love to forward settle RIGHT ON YOU.

You are out of luck as your neighbours are notorious early agressors. Imagine a town like Orleans with the incas, mostly 5 or 6 food tiles between mountains with terrace farms
But, yes you are correct, since new patch, the AI will settle and expand in your living space very early.

 

[ense7en]

You are out of luck as your neighbours are notorious early agressors. Imagine a town like Orleans with the incas, mostly 5 or 6 food tiles between mountains with terrace farms
But, yes you are correct, since new patch, the AI will settle and expand in your living space very early.

I've kept playing that map.
It's been brutal.

I don't know why i haven't given up yet.

I finally managed to grab two of Dido's cities. Things actually seemed to be looking up.

Of course, she requested friendship.
I said, sure.
Shortly afterwards, she declares war.

Here's t229.
FRACKING DOOM CARPETS.
I'm at war w/ Carthage, but you can see all those Babylon units. He actually waited a bit to attack me.

Spoiler :

The coastal city went back and forth between me and Dido for a while, but the lovely AI bonus to production means she can pump out two billion ships constantly, so eventually i just gave up. After losing almost all my units.

Of course, Babylon attacked me during this.
So i gave up on Utique to try to keep my main three cities safe.

I finally pushed Babs back, and actually got Akkad. His cap has a ton of wonders, and Nippur has the Fountain of Youth.
But then, just when i was making progress, America attacks. And of course, they are ahead in tech and have Triplanes and Great War Bombers, and Batteships one-shotting my land units from his inland lake.

So i have to make peace with Babs so i can go get my units slaughtered by America.
I've lost so many units it's insane.

I gotta say i don't even find it fun. Challenging, sure, but it's just ridiculous trying to compete with the bonuses the AI gets

 

[smallfish]

Interesting that Dido would DOW you while under DoF. Thus far games on Emperor have not had one such incident - they always denounce to break friendship and then to DOW.

Don't focus on America - it sounds like he is tech leader the second, concentrate on Babylon for its wonder Great Wall city. Get a gatling or two to garrison and take out melee units trying to take Paris and Orleans, don't put them out front. Also, is Bismarck interested in warring with him?

 

[Buccaneer]

Based on experience, I think you have to beat them before they get out of control (which is my prefered approach) and/or to outsmart them.

Since I am going to pick China for my first deity game, I thought about my last game with them a while back. I wanted to dominate my continent and made a great push and got most of it. But then I ran out of gas and eventually got pushed way back (i.e., losing all of my gains and then encroachments into my lands by Spain). I then changed course, prioritized defense, emphasized gold and city-states and hoped that the runaway (Roman) on the other continent wouldn't join in. The defense held, Romans had the invasion force but didn't land and won that game even though there were two runaways.

 

[ense7en]

Interesting that Dido would DOW you while under DoF. Thus far games on Emperor have not had one such incident - they always denounce to break friendship and then to DOW.

Don't focus on America - it sounds like he is tech leader the second, concentrate on Babylon for its wonder Great Wall city. Get a gatling or two to garrison and take out melee units trying to take Paris and Orleans, don't put them out front. Also, is Bismarck interested in warring with him?

Yeah i've had two backstabs in this game
Early on, America wants to be friends. (This while i'm being gang-banged by Babylon + Carthage.)
I was surprised, but thought, great, at least i don't have to worry about him for a while.
Nope, not long later, he denounces me?!
And then attacks.

And then Carthage. Wow Dido is annoying i must say. As noted in the patch, her deceptive level is off the charts so basically when she says let's be friends, etc, she really means i'm going to screw you over so hard...

Also OMG her ability to cross mountains is annoying on Pangea.

In this map i have a ton of mountains around me, separating parts of my area from others.
I kept forgetting she could cross them, so i kept losing workers that she'd jack, or weak units she's race over and pick off.

As for currently, i'm definitely in big trouble.
I cannot produce enough units to ever get peace from America and he's built Manhatten and has Uranium.
He's also got a WAY bigger military since my three cities take forever to build units and i've lost most everything i've made.

I stupidly thought i could push America back earlier on to liberate Mombosa, but there's no chance as his Battleships and Great War Bombers killed off half my guys before i could retreat (so many hills it's very slow going).
Now i've backed up but my spy tells me Babylon is preparing another attack, and i have so few units spread so thin.

I'm pretty sure this is going to be an extremely ugly loss where i get nuked and overwhelmed to my end well before i can even try for science win.

I paid Boudicca to attack America. I can only pray he focuses on her, but it's not looking that way thus far.
She, Germany, and America are the three main runaways, with Siam having an insanely tall cap (43 pop!) and also doing well.

t304

Spoiler :

 

[ense7en]

Well, that didn't end so well as expected.

Germany won science victory t366.

The war with America actually was going sorta okay eventually.

I kept paying off Germany and the Celts to go to war with America, and they went nuke crazy all over.
But then America finally wised up and used a nuke on me, my capital, which is where all my bombers and fighters were, so not only did i lose a ton of pop, i lost every plane.

So i cheated. Reloaded to the turn before and moved my planes.
Why a nuke kills every unit in your cities doesn't seem right to me. I get the loss of pop, but every unit sitting there dies?

My two main cities got nuked, but he left my third city alone.
I lost two great scientists sitting in those cities.
But my fighters/bombers survived.

I kept pushing back America on the land unit front though, and liberated Mombasa. BTW, when you liberate a city state i think the influence needs to be WAY higher than it is. I shouldn't have to fight to keep them as an ally right away :\

Finally got peace from America.

In the mean time i grabbed Utique back from Carthage since they were getting destroyed by Boudicca.

I also took over Babylon and the Fountain of Youth city.

But it didn't matter.
The loss of pop from the nukes and the fact i was already so far behind meant Germany beat me to finishing the spaceship by quite a lot.

Spoiler :

 

[Gamewizard]

I finally managed to grab two of Dido's cities. Things actually seemed to be looking up.

Of course, she requested friendship.
I said, sure.
Shortly afterwards, she declares war.

Dido is deceptive. You controlled 2 of her cities, giving you borders against her capital. This "friendship" was just a ploy to get you to put your guard down.

 

[curwen]

hi i was used o play at deity (and win sometimes) as immortal was to easy , but now immortal/deity seems much more difficult.
For example in my last game as aztec on immortal i got a "early rush" by the monghol at turn 50 ... which finished at turn 200+++ ... I was destroying between 3 and 5 unit every turn and that never stopped.... add the fact that he was always ahead by an era in term of tech ... I managed to beat him back when my other neighbour (dutch) finally attacked him also at turn 200+ but i have never see sucha rush ... the strange thing was that for most of the time (until turn 190+) monghol was 1st in everything (he lost some ground when i finally managed to take back the religious CS he attacked just before me)....
The problem is they build so many units so fast you cannot do anything execpt turtle to survive the wave of units..


I started a new game and had nearly the same problem with spain which has only 3 cities (!!!) and is the weakest beside me... I had to kill more than 40 units at turn 70 to be able to take 1 city. I could finish him but the other civs on the continent are so far ahead in tech and units (byzance has more than 100 balliste he has coverred his country with a carpet of them)... ANd i was never able to build even one wonder ...

The strange thing is if i go back 1 level i win easily building most wonder and getting the tech lead even while trying to get a cultural victory ....

I never had this insane never ending flow of units even on deity ... even germany at deity could not lose 40/100 units and still have so huge armies ...

Am i the only one experiencing this (i play on continent / standard map size).

Btw IA seems t have much less gold also , spam a lot more cities ... attack much more CS .... but the great problem is its never ending flow of units (for once i am nearly always at the maximum number of units).

 

[stealth82]

It's just gotten to the point where playing at Immortal is just stupidly difficult, in the sense that is never fun.

Before the patch I never thought of completely doing away with a neighbor Civ but now the first one that just thinks of touching me is just dead. And I don't care about diplomacy negative modifiers to the point that very often even the second Civ follows the first one down into the grave.

One playstyle to rule them all. Great :/

 

[Buccaneer]

It's just gotten to the point where playing at Immortal is just stupidly difficult, in the sense that is never fun.

Before the patch I never thought of completely doing away with a neighbor Civ but now the first one that just thinks of touching me is just dead. And I don't care about diplomacy negative modifiers to the point that very often even the second Civ follows the first one down into the grave.

One playstyle to rule them all. Great :/

There are other very successful playstyles on immortal/deity.

 

[swiharta]

I agree, post Fall patch Immortal is harder. Emperor seems about the same and is much easier than Immortal. They should rebalance something or add another difficulty level.

 

[Buccaneer]

I agree, post Fall patch Immortal is harder. Emperor seems about the same and is much easier than Immortal. They should rebalance something or add another difficulty level.

Some believe that Emperor is way too hard and some believe that Deity is too easy. I think it is balanced correctly.

 

[RedRover57]

Some believe that Emperor is way too hard and some believe that Deity is too easy. I think it is balanced correctly.

The people who are finding Emperor too hard are likely not that experienced with the game. If you re-read the thread, most of the people who are commenting that Immortal is now difficult are people who won easily on Immortal pre-patch and won on Deity at least some of the time pre-patch. I consider myself to be one of the latter (not Mad Djinn level, but could hold my own on Deity on most maps pre-patch) and am now finding Immortal to be difficult on some maps post-patch. Of course there are still ways to stack the deck in your favor to even make Deity somewhat easier.