Immortal University 78 - Mao Zedong

[Htadus]

^^

Spoiler :

You can start Lit since you will need it for HE and AI wont trade it untill atleast GLib is complete. If Joao follow the Lit route, then you may ahve a problem. I think the only reason I got it is because I was using city capture gold to do deficit research at -30-40 gpt while warriong. Otherwise I would have to build wealth.

BTW, you have another option that I rarely use to build units. Chop/build archers and use capture gold to upgrade to Chokunu's

 

[Htadus]

I continued the game to 800AD and it is time to quit and get back to finish the current GOTM.

Spoiler :

The empire is at a good point and has the capacity to take over the old world.

I forgot to set up a GP farm in this game and think poorly of that. Also need a few more workers but oh well.

 

[i_imperator]

I decided to restart my game, i feel that even though i did well on my first attempt that i could have made less mistakes and achieved a bigger empire.
-> Lib

Spoiler :

Well i managed to get some more cities this time, the wine city up near the tundra and the crabs/junk city. This time shaka didnt dow on me until turn 120 i believe. Believe it or not but i was able to culture flip one of his cities, which he recaptured in that war, big deal shaka, its a junk city anyways.

But i still held it off. I bulbed paper and waited on a golden age to help me get through education/lib. My civic's were Pacisifm, HR, Slavery.I And i had the apolotolic religon in my cities so lots of bonus there. I managed to get lib and i took astronomy from if. I did have to trade for paper/optics with Jaou so i could get astro.

However now i have a bit of a problem, monty and shaka have dowed on me, which is really annoying as i was just about to get my universities/oxford and i was attempting to start settling the new world. After i take out monty/shaka, im going to settle the new world and go for a space win, if that dosent work out im just gonna kill everyone on my cointent.

I have two pretty good GP farms atm, so my science is probally not the best performance but at the very least acceptable.I guess the big question here is what to do with Shaka/Monty, and my answer is to at least kill shaka. Here is the save. Andy advice would be welcome.

P.S Jaou and some of the other AI's are willing to dow on Shaka/Monty, for a few techs ofc, should i take up this offer and get better relaitons from it?

 

[Htadus]

@Stevoh,

Spoiler :

Too bad you misused your GS to bulb Paper. The GS would have given more in return bulbing Education instead of paper.

Somehow I left out images from my game so here they are.

This game is a typical Diplo game for me = no body loves me. That is why I can not play Deity, i do not get along .

 

[learner gamer]

Immortal / normal. Update to 100 AD. Once again, I’d appreciate a little guidance re: the tech path at what is a very interesting juncture.

Spoiler :

As per previous update, bulbed machinery and built / whipped / chopped cho-ko-nus in four cities. Despite this troop build up, Shaka decided it was a good idea to DoW again in 125 BC. Alost two hundred years on and Shaka’s last mainland city (and capital – containing TGLH) is now in Chinese hands! He’s now willing to take peace (ceding HBR, fishing and what must be an island city in the deal) – and I’m inclined to accept...although I’ll likely only take HBR to allow an engineering bulb in 10 – 14 turns.


Re: tech. I'd really appreciate feedback on two issues.

Firstly, whilst I've given alot of thought to @Htadus’ great suggestion of teching (EDIT) literature > music to obtain the GA - and indeed I've put a handful of beakers into drama (as an alternative to literature after Joao nabbed lit) - my (more inexperienced) instinct suggests I need to obtain currency in the now post-Shaka world. Although I have some 400 gold / war booty (which will enable me to finish currency in 3 turns), I’m thinking that gold will run out pretty soon running what is now a 10 city civ in the absence of courthouses. However, I’d love to know the views of some more experienced immortal gamers than I on this point.

My second question meanwhile arises from my plan, which is now to take down either Joao or Monty. Joao (who indeed teched literature immediately after completing aesthetics – as discussed in the previous update) DoW'd Ragnar only to be DoW'd by JC...and I would love to get hold of a city which contains The Great Library, if Joao indeed builds it. Another option is to pursue Monty (who’s still in WHEOOHRN so could yet DoW me) for his Hindu shrine.

Of course, this begs the question: if I take currency next, should (i) CoL (ii) construction or (iii) literature / drama > music be next in the tech queue? CoL and construction are in 1 and 3 AI’s possession respectively (although nobody will trade), but drama at least is still unresearched. I guess the question is therefore how likely construction in particular can be traded for (eg. if one more AI researches it)? Once construction is researched / traded for, I can then use my forthcoming GPerson to bulb engineering and unleash trebs along with cho-ku-nus. Any views on this from the immortal gurus out there would also be very welcome.

 

[Htadus]

^^

Spoiler :

Not drama to Music, Lit to music, that way HE is available.

 

[learner gamer]

@Htadus:

Spoiler :

Sorry, you're spot on...you did indeed suggest lit > music, my bad. I ended up putting a handful of beakers into drama after Joao nabbed lit as an alternative way of getting to music. Will edit the previous post.

 

[pigswill]

@Learner gamer.

Spoiler :

In my limited experience AI are very reluctant to trade construction early at any difficulty level. Currency first regardless or you'll go broke.

 

[i_imperator]

This is starting to really annoy me now...

Spoiler :

Managed to take out shaka, or at least whats left of his main land, but monty has control of the ap and keeps trying to gife shaka cities through it, i have no choice but to vote never otherwies i'll loose those cities which is hurting my happiness and science, then ofc around 1650AD monty and shaka dow on me. Shaka has not vassled to anyone yet (bit suprising to me) but monty is a good half an era ahead in tech of me. I don't know what to do here, and im getting fustrated with this game.Most of the other ai's are ahead of me in tech, i cant even get the chance to rebuild my infranstructure in my cities. I'll provide the save, any advice would be welcome.

 

[Htadus]

@Htadus:

Spoiler :

Sorry, you're spot on...you did indeed suggest lit > music, my bad. I ended up putting a handful of beakers into drama after Joao nabbed lit as an alternative way of getting to music. Will edit the previous post.

No harm done, but the funny thing is that in my game I did, by mistake, what you though I suggested. It was not all that bad and I managed to put it to good use.

@Steve,

Spoiler :

You are in a tough spot there. I am not sure I can advise for this game but for future use please whip both a theater/pavilion and a collosium in all cities. You would have had 5 additional happy faces from those two buildings at 20% culture slide if you have access to dye.

Too bad you did not press both zulu and aztecs early to claim the land west of you.

 

[i_imperator]

Htadus

Spoiler :

Holding off that attack will be very difficult, and even if i manage to do so, the ai's will be so far ahead that the only way i can win is with Nukes, Para's and some navy to catch up with the ai's tech. I think Diplo and Space are out of the question. So i think im gonna have to call it GG.

However i might retry from my previous attempt, perhaps i was a little too greedy this time around. I recall attacking shaka/monty much earlier.

So i wouldve been spared some greif if i had whipped both a theater/pavilion and a collosium in all cities.Hmm well at least i've learnt alot and know what to do for next time. Thanks very much for all the advice and tips, it was a great help. Looks like its gg from me so, I may reload from one of the saves here or at least from my previous attempt. But for now i need a break from this map.

 

[learner gamer]

@Htadus:

Spoiler :

Thanks for your help to date - and understanding. As it happens, I clearly recalled that you mentioned going to music via lit when writing the update; but simply put drama in its place in error....likely because I’d put beakers into it after Joao went lit. Let’s just say it wasn’t my finest post! It also explains perfectly why so many of my posts have edits attached to them!

@pigswill:

Spoiler :

Thanks for your feedback. Yeah, will be going currency next...then likely construction (to open up an engineering bulb since LBs can’t be that far away on the battlefield) or literature (for the Epics) and, if it hasn’t been taken by that point, music for the GA. Will look to trade for CoL meanwhile via either aesthetics or currency.

 

[pigswill]

Immortal normal 1640ad

Spoiler :

My last report was in 1180ad when I'd just got liberalism. Took PP then went for SM and communism, surprisingly enough I was first to comunism. Jo was and is streets ahead of me techwise but went for democracy first. Had a GA with free Gspy. Things were going fine for a while.
Friendly and DP with Jules (who vassalised Monte).
Friendly and DP with Ragnar (who vassalised Loncoln and Mehmed).
Friendly and DP with Jo who vassalised no-one.
Not friendly with Shaka who was falling behind on tech.
Quietly started settling the new world (2 seperate island continents).
Then things blew up in 1550. Mehmed+vassals declared on Jules+vassal. I got to be on Jules' side due to DP. At the same time Shaka opportunistically dowed on me (though not Jules). I'm beating up on Shaka (rifles/infantry+cannon vs medieval and muskets) but Ragnar is beating up on Jules and has taken 4 of his cities. My economy is pretty flatlined at the moment, lots of small american cities and unit costs.
However I've just traded rifling+AL to Jules for railroad, hopefully Ragnar will find Jules' next city defended by infantry instead of LBs.

 

[learner gamer]

Immortal / normal. Update to 540 AD.

Spoiler :

Tech path went currency > construction > trade for poly > literature > music. Nabbed the GArtist in 475 AD. In retrospect, going literature > music before construction would’ve been a better choice to access the HE and get to music faster.

DoW’d Monty in 275 AD and used GS to bulb engineering shortly after - but saw no longbows from Monty. He’d teched theology over feudalism. I managed to secure CoL and theology from him in the peace deal just secured this turn. Like Shaka, Monty has now been wiped from the mainland.

Caught in two minds re: future plans. Cities have room to grow under the happy cap but I need courthouses (to recover the economy) and trebs (to take a war to GL builder Joao) now, which favours whipping. Perhaps the solution is to use the GArtist for a golden age now to maximise production. Any advice re: whether whipping or growth would be better at this point would be welcome.

The good news is that, having accumulated circa 400 gold from war booty and another 320 gold via a demand for tribute from Joao, I’m only 5 or so turns from civil service (even without a golden age), so could also revolt into bureaucracy for free during the golden age. As much as I’d love to revolt into Hinduism and theocracy too, I don’t think the Buddhist bloc (led by JC) would be too pleased. Then again, perhaps I can engineer a trade for feudalism and revolt into vassalage. Another option is to spend the first few turns of any golden age in caste system to farm another GS and open up an education bulb. As always, any advice re: civics would be welcome.

By the time it takes for the troops to heal and travel across the continent (with +1 movement from engineering), about 10 turns should’ve elapsed...along with the peace treaty with Joao currently in effect (thanks to my demand for gold). With Joao having built The Great Library in Lisbon, I’d love to be able to get hold of the Portuguese capital. I’ve a feeling that the sooner I war, the easier it’ll be, given the likelihood that the AP will be Buddhist. Indeed, I wonder if it’s worthwhile gifting Mehmed (as the only Hindu I haven’t crippled) theocracy to see if he will build the AP?

As always, any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Htadus]

@ learner,

You game is so much better set up than mine tech wise.

Spoiler :

I would get the forces togather and go after Joao asap and hit in 2 cities the same time. But the best may be to break his back by sending your main force to his capital while a secondary force take other productive cities of his. Once the capital is captured, then double back and take other cities or continue to south. The south cities are juicy.

I wished I too bulbed Engineering and the only reason for not doing is poor game play on my part. As far as I am concerned your game is won and now it is to find out how fast you can do it. By the way, I highly recommend that you build the FP in Aztec city south of Ulundi. Also you are building Library in a city that had very little commerce being generated. How long do you think it wil take the hammers to be paid back with bulbs? If you intend to war alot, remember to build a pavilion and a theater in your major cities. You can actually do it once the cities are about to enter unhappy stage since you had not done it before warring and now need all the units you can muster.

 

[learner gamer]

@Htadus:

Spoiler :

Thanks once again for all your help, it’s much appreciated.

Whilst I’m glad to hear you think the game is won , experience (ie. my propensity to lose from good starts ) reminds me I need to be a little more cautious. In short, whilst I’ve won a few games at immortal now, I’m still not quite sure when I can recognise that the game is won...especially when the AP is about to enter play. FWIW, I do recognise that taking down Shaka and Monty has broken the game wide open and that I can probably seal the win if I can take down Joao.

On that score, your thoughts re: military tactics are identical to mine. I’d love to be able to conjure up two stacks – but am realising that one stack to Lisbon (which is being roaded into) and then headed further south will probably have to do. Meanwhile, my northern cities can fend off Joao’s counter with cho-ku-nus / maces if needed and the odd pike if he sends out jumbos. With any luck (or perhaps a trade), Ragnar and / or JC (who’s WHEOOHRN) can join a dogpile to keep Joao’s forces occupied.

Re: the FP. Thanks for the tip! I keep forgetting to build that thing!

Re: library. I presume you mean in Tianjin (where there’s one hammer invested in a library)? Yeah, poor play on my part. I stupidly put a library in the queue as a placeholder and left it there for a turn. With CoL now just in from Shaka, the plan will be forge > courthouse for exactly the reason you mentioned – maximising return per hammers invested.

Re: pavilions. Am planning to use war booty from Joao to help me get to drama (if it's not available in trade) and then look to build / whip them as war weariness climbs.



Given my earlier point re: my tendency to throw away good starts meanwhile, I’d appreciate your thoughts re: two points:

Firstly, when to run the golden age from the GArtist? It occurs to me that I have three choices:

(i) Start the golden age now, revolt into caste, farm a scientist and use the extra hammers from the age to boost production. Upside: cities grow and a GS education bulb will pretty much seal liberalism. Downside: trebs won’t be produced in sufficient numbers to assist the coming war much.

(ii) Leave the GArtist to snooze a while longer and whip out trebs and the odd pike to protect my stack. Upside: Joao’s toast and the GA is kept for a golden age after the war which is used to farm a GS. Downside: cities stay small for a good while longer, which may inhibit the post-war economic recovery – although whipping would include courthouses in certain cities. Beijing is also unlikely to contribute much to the war effort if it continues building the HE. Also won’t be able to revolt without losing a turn of anarchy.

(iii) Burn the GArtist on a golden age but whip as needed. Upside: cities will grow (depending on where I whip), trebs can help in the war effort, and I can revolt anarchy free. Downside: the higher opportunity cost of whipping during a golden age and much reduced opportunity to farm another GS (since no caste system).

FWIW, I’m leaning towards option (ii) or (iii) given how taking down Joao and nabbing The Great Library would affect the game. Out of curiosity, which of these three plans would you be inclined to pursue? Or is there another option that I’ve missed?

Secondly, what do you think of the idea re: gifting theocracy to Mehmed to see if he will build The AP under Hinduism?

Thanks again for any guidance you can give.

 

[Htadus]

@ Learner,

Spoiler :

When you have equal number of cities as the largest AI, you are halfway there to win the game if you play the rest of the game right. However when you have an excellent tech lead and nearly 1.5 times the number of cities as typical AI, the game is over. All you have to do is build the correct landscape improvements and builds. Even the tech path will be obvious based on how you want to win.

Having said that, jumping on Joao asap is only going to make things better.

Regarding GA's; some of the most remarkable players who have graced these forums advice the earlier as possible is better. I find it to be true for those players and not for all. Those players develop there land and cities to get the most out of there GA's. So by the time they win the Music race, they are ready to launch a GA. So planning a GA ahead is better civing and early GA's are most useful.

As for this game, as you identified that there is 10 turns before any thing can happen in the war front. So kicking off the GA right now will aid you with extra prductivity in the cities with hammers. That mean speed up trebs built normally. Your HE will come out sooner working correct tiles. I can not remember if you had a good GP farm set up or not, but you should be able to get a GS or 2 if you have 2cities large enough to run many specialists.

So this is what i would suggest if you have 1 or 2 good food heavy cities with the potential to run at least 5 specialists. Starve them if needed;
Launch the GA,
switch to CS to run scientists in GP farms,
MM all other cities to get most production and build units preferably,
In 8 turns switch back to slavery, Buro, Vasellage, Theocracy or whatever the civics you need for the next stageof the game and whip as needed.

As far as AP is concerned, if you have that religion in your land, then be deligent to assign 1 or 2 cities to speread that religion to all your cities, then switch to it and you will be the AI resident. Also, you can ask Mohamed if he will DoW Joao for Theo and may be another tech instead of just giving it free. There is no gurantee that he will build it, however if many Ai where building it, then there is the chance for failed gold trades with them. Drama is very good for that.

 

[pigswill]

Immortal normal. 1836. Advice needed.

Spoiler :

Just finished a long war vs Viking/America, acquired 8 cities in the process, America down to its last island city but Rags has a much better navy than me and WW was getting ugly so I called it a day. Still getting on well with Jules and my vassal Shaka. Number one in land and pop but well behind on military and tech. While the wars have been going on Jo has been quietly working towards culture/space victory (culturewise 45k,25k, 25k). I'm sec gen but well short of votes for Diplo (550 out of ?720).
I tell myself that it shouldn't be hopeless but I've lost direction and don't know how to proceed.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Pigswill -

Spoiler :

JoaII is close to space win. Not good. So that rules out space.
Un is almost impossible due to 3-4 DOW on various AI.
Ap is gone.
Culture is too late.

Some how you need to attack JoaII. Can you nuke his cities to death and capture his capital? You are 30% off land/pop for domination. Not sure you had the techs for nukes. You need to capture his capital. He will have a huge stack somewhere.

I think you perhaps lost focus going for the empty continent. Perhaps you should of focused on the Ai closer to you. JoaII needed taking down.

 

[learner gamer]

Immortal / normal. To 940 AD.

Spoiler :

After much deliberation (and great feedback from @Htadus....seriously, I couldn’t have gotten this far without your help ) I eventually decided on pursuing option (ii) in the previous post....let the GArtist snooze for a little whilst I whip out a few more units and infra (like forges, courthouses etc.) – and keep the GArtist for a golden age during which I could run caste system. In part, this decision was also motivated by the desire to whip a wall in fur city (and leverage PRO), but also to allow a change of civics (to bureaucracy) at the same time as going into caste system.

In the end, the decision to stay in slavery inadvertently saved an awful lot of angst – because just 3 turns after the save (in 580 AD), JC DoW’d me....despite having close border and religious tension with his neighbour Joao. Fortunately, I was able to whip some cho-ku-nus (to hell with efficiency – give me the units, pronto!), and use some cash (having turned off the slider when I saw his stack the previous turn) to upgrade a couple of units to defend the (now walled) fur city. Progress was also helped enormously by JC’s desire to spend precious turns bombarding Hangzhou's walls, during which time more defenders arrived in the city. Suffice to say that I don’t think I’ve ever been so glad of the ability to one pop whip walls that PRO provides.

JC’s stack fended off, I took peace in 680 AD and even managed to nab civil service in the deal. With peace treaties therefore now in place with JC and Joao (courtesy of my earlier demand for gold), I burnt the GArtist for a golden age and civics change (into bureau and caste).

The golden age saw forges and courthouses built in Shaka's and Monty's ex-cities, whilst Chinese cities began producing trebs for the forthcoming war. I thought seriously about taking down JC (who’s now the biggest threat in the game) but stayed on plan to conquer Joao and capture The Great Library in Lisbon.

At 940 AD, it’s mission accomplished. A couple of Portuguese cities have fallen (including Lisbon just this moment) and Joao is now willing to cap. I’d actually like to war a little longer (and have the troops to do so), but JC has joined in a dogpile so I’ll have to be careful Joao doesn’t cap to JC. Any advice re: how likely Joao is to cap to JC would be very welcome.

At this point, prospects look pretty good IMHO: if I cap Joao, pick the next target, rinse and repeat. JC will possibly have to wait until gunpowder since he now has access to maces to replace his praetorians. Whilst JC’s the most technologically advanced AI, I have a GS ready to part bulb education (which is now open) and another (with ~80% probability) due in around 17 turns, so I think I’m in decent shape for lib.

As always, any advice / tips / corrections to gameplay would be very welcome. Talking of mistakes, the most obvious one I can see is that I currently don’t have any external trade routes, which must reflect the absence of a road to Roman territory. I must admit, I presumed that sailing would mean that I had trade routes to Circei (in the NE) and therefore didn’t build a road. Can someone therefore please let me know: am I not getting external trade routes because of an ice tile (marked as ICE BLOCKING TRADE in the save) on a coastal tile in the NE between Hangzhou (fur city) and Circei? Many thanks.