Immortal University 78 - Mao Zedong

[Htadus]

@ Pigswill,

Spoiler :

I can not see the save for a long time, but I recommend using espionage to deal with both his space and culture aspirations. water poisoning in culture cities and sabatage space parts. So focus you espinage at him now and wreck havoc.

@ learner

Spoiler :

Again can not see the save but press the war to Joao and let JC have him as Vassel if it comes to that, Then after another build up hit JCand finsh Joao. I would see if another Ai will join in against JC. Link would be best but Rags can help. All you have to do is take JC's productive cities for him to break. Take the main stack through America before DoWing. I recommend 2 other stacks hitting Joao and one of JC's western cities.

 

[Gumbolt]

It seems to me diplomacy will be very important this game. Don't underestimate the advantage of getting Ai to pleased. This and getting the Ai fighting each other.

 

[Htadus]

It seems to me diplomacy will be very important this game. Don't underestimate the advantage of getting Ai to pleased. This and getting the Ai fighting each other.

No kidding, this type of map and these AI demand survival at the least. Sadly I pissed everyone off so far, so pointy stick is my only option.

 

[inky13112]

This is my first game on immortal... it didn't go so well. Would greatly appreciate advice. Kind of a long post with a bunch of questions you may consider basic.

Spoiler :

I didn't scout the copper to the west until late, so didn't settle there until later. instead I settled far to the east since I thought getting the wine city wasn't all that good land. In hindsight, these were clearly mistakes. My research rate was very low because of maintenance made worse by city far from capital. I could have settled 2 deer city and/or furs city further north, but didn't want even more maintenance. In my games I usually try and REX alot but in this game it kind of fell on its face to maintenance and joao. What should I have done differently/ just had differently plan wise?

Went Hunting->AH->BW->TW->Pottery And here I was kind of at a loss for what to do. I continued: Mysticism->Archery->Writing->Alphabet which I traded for iron working and fishing. The whole tech path seemed kind of aimless and just researching things that seemed decent. I see alot of people went for fast machinery and chos using oracle or GS usually. What is the game plan for accomplishing that?

From alphabet I went for aesthetics->literature, and traded for math and a bunch of backfill techs. (the religion ones, sailing, and maybe a few others I don't remember)

Wasn't sure what to do with my workers after I cottaged the grasslands around capital, got all strat resources I could, mined some hills... so I chopped a bunch of trees, but I didn't cottage the rice cow gold city because I was planning to make it a GP farm, but with civil service so far away I kept it whipped to about 4 pop to work the useful improved squares and left everything else fallow. Was this a reasonable try or should I have cottaged and grown or what? Actually I kept most of my cities whiped to about 4 because of not many good tiles. Only capital allowed to grow to work cottages, get 2 scientists. I should be working the gold and silver mines once they are up and I can work them while growing? Or at some point slightly later in growth?

When I got GS, I built academy in capital partly because game was looking like I was going to retire definitely and partly because only bulb available was mathematics, which seemed like a waste of a GS. Should I have kept for later bulb or golden age?

Anyway in my game I felt the need to expand, and with joao's culture pressuring me and having taken the wine city I should have grabbed, along with not having the tech for any kind of infrastructure buildings, I built a ton of axes and attacked in early AD. With only axes. Captured 2 cities before realizing I was losing money at 0% and that Joao had outproduced me and was about to start recapturing. Behind in techs, with no economy and an inferior military, I retired here. Possibly I could have kept playing and rebuilt after suing for peace and giving back the junky iron city, but keeping the nice wine one, but I still have very little infrastructure tech for rebuilding shattered economy. Still is the game worth attempting to salvage, even if just to learn?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I can provide more information or saves if needed.

The save is from like 2 turns before I retired.

 

[Htadus]

This is my first game on immortal... it didn't go so well. Would greatly appreciate advice. Kind of a long post with a bunch of questions you may consider basic.

First off welcome to immortal, second, next time don't wait this far into the game to get some advise

Spoiler :

I didn't scout the copper to the west until late, so didn't settle there until later. instead I settled far to the east since I thought getting the wine city wasn't all that good land. In hindsight, these were clearly mistakes. Not exploring will always hurt your game, so almost always hae your first new warrior go out and explore the area surroundiing the capital. at least 6 tiles away while the original warrior go looking for AI.My research rate was very low because of maintenance made worse by city far from capital.Settling far from capital is not always a bad thing. But the reason for settling so far should have areason and a recovery plan...like commerce resource such as gold in this game. I could have settled 2 deer city and/or furs city further north, but didn't want even more maintenance.In this map claiming north is not very productive since it is mainly tundra. You should have gone south In my games I usually try and REX alot but in this game it kind of fell on its face to maintenance and joao. What should I have done differently/ just had differently plan wise?You should have claimed gold, 2 wines, copper and the cow and other food city and had the workers building roads ahead of settling when possible

Went Hunting->AH->BW->TW->Pottery And here I was kind of at a loss for what to do. I continued: Mysticism->Archery->Writing->Alphabet which I traded for iron working and fishing. If you were heading to alpha so soon then both myst and archary were a waste of you bulbs. Also Ai will get alph early at emperror and above, so instead CoL, Aesth or even MC would have been better. The whole tech path seemed kind of aimless and just researching things that seemed decent. I see alot of people went for fast machinery and chos using oracle or GS usually. What is the game plan for accomplishing that?Oracel MC and skip fishing. use first GS to bulb Machinary (need Aesthetics out of the way and masonary) and second GS to Bulb Engineering.(need Construction)

From alphabet I went for aesthetics->literature, and traded for math and a bunch of backfill techs. (the religion ones, sailing, and maybe a few others I don't remember)That was good

Wasn't sure what to do with my workers after I cottaged the grasslands around capital, got all strat resources I could, mined some hills... so I chopped a bunch of trees, but I didn't cottage the rice cow gold city because I was planning to make it a GP farm, but with civil service so far away I kept it whipped to about 4 pop to work the useful improved squares and left everything else fallow. Was this a reasonable try or should I have cottaged and grown or what?That city already had gold and 2 food sources, that mean you can run 2 scientist at size 5 and up while growing. having cottages in that city is not bad. Also there is no reason for not building a farm over a cottage that has too many turns to become a town. Actually I kept most of my cities whiped to about 4 because of not many good tiles. Only capital allowed to grow to work cottages, get 2 scientists. I should be working the gold and silver mines once they are up and I can work them while growing? Or at some point slightly later in growth?Whipping is great in the early game, but as the game progress a size 4 city is not helping to convey AI that you are powerful. I can not look at your save but it is very likley that you had too many units and paid too much unit costs. You could have built wealth or science and let the cities grow.

When I got GS, I built academy in capital partly because game was looking like I was going to retire definitely and partly because only bulb available was mathematics, which seemed like a waste of a GS. Should I have kept for later bulb or golden age?If yuo are way behind and have nothing to trade and willing trade partners, then bulbing Philo would have been better. However an Academy is a good use fairly often in a potential Buro capital

Anyway in my game I felt the need to expand, and with joao's culture pressuring me and having taken the wine city I should have grabbed, along with not having the tech for any kind of infrastructure buildings, I built a ton of axes and attacked in early AD.This is a little too late for an axe war due to increased losses With only axes. Captured 2 cities before realizing I was losing money at 0% and that Joao had outproduced me and was about to start recapturing. Behind in techs, with no economy and an inferior military, I retired here. Possibly I could have kept playing and rebuilt after suing for peace and giving back the junky iron city, but keeping the nice wine one, but I still have very little infrastructure tech for rebuilding shattered economy. Still is the game worth attempting to salvage, even if just to learn?Do you have another source of Iron to give the junk city back? If you want to go through the excercise of recoving from this kind of situation, then by all means play on. You wll learn a thing or two. BTW what is Monti and Shaka doing all this time?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I can provide more information or saves if needed.

The save is from like 2 turns before I retired.

i am sure someone else will look at the save and give more pointers. I myself need to start the current Pacal BOTM. Well while i am at it, let me invite you and any others reading this to play any and all xOTM's we have going right now. So much can be learned in the pregame discussions and progress threads.

One last thing. When you start a game, always look for happy and health resources and come up with a plan to claim the asap. This is the biggest drawback in Civ and it become worst with higher levels. Yes there is Monarchy but that too take a while to attain. Happy buildings are also good investments.

 

[pigswill]

I think I'm going to abandon my game at this point. It woud appear in hindsight that ignoring the old world to develop the new world was a flawed strategy.

 

[krikav]

I like this map alot. Very entertaining!
Big thanks to Habitus for hosting! <3

I have played the first 98 rounds, and comparing myself to others here, I see that I'm behind in tech, but I have a army of axes to make up for it.

My logbook:

Spoiler :

T0:
I decide to settle in place, I refrain from moving warrior SW, so that
I can instead quicker get a view of the river, to determine early
tech/builds. If there is a sweet spot on the river, I might be able to
put of the wheel.
With the silver, my capital will have happycap 6, working deer, sheep,
silver, two hills and a farm.
The capital is food poor, so I probably won't whip much.
Starting tech is hunting for the deer, AH will most likely come next.
BW is also in the pipeline with all these forests around.

T5: culture expand reveals grassland cows, which pretty settles AH as
the second tech.

T9: Worker is done, I sent him to hunt the deer. What to build next?
I think I need another worker, to be able to improve the sheep once AH
is done, if the first worker is sent to mine the silver.
This would almost certainly lead to lost worker turns, but the workers
could scout the northern shore in the meantime, also, a horse could be
revealed on that plains-tile.

T12, I see rice close to the cow.
T15, I see gold, and I meet montezuma.
T17, Worker is done, 2 turns to AH, I choose NOT to go to the sheep
tile, since that isn't necessery, instead the worker stays in town, if
horses is revealed, I might opt to improve them first.

At this turn, I could work the unimproved silver for one turn, to get
AH next turn instead of in two turns.
I refrain from this, since this costs 4 food (Not working deer), while
the potential gain is 2 food (improving sheep one turn earlier).

T19, No horses anywhere in sight.

T20, I meet Joao and put spy-points on him.
Silver is done, should I stay at pop1 and work the silver to get BW 5
turns earlier?
No, I opt to spend 3 more turns on the deer instead to get to pop2.
This only "delays" BW by 20%
(3 turns lost out of possible 15 working silver)
A warrior is also spawned this turn, I send him to Joaos direction.

T21, I explore northern coast with the silverminer, he reveals crabs.
This could be a ok city to take the silver-pressure of my food-poor
capital.

T22, I meet Memed from south-east, and Julius from east.

T23, Capital reaches population 2, should I grow to pop3 in 3 turns or
work the silver right away?
I opt for growing again, working sheep and deer. Lost worker turns be damned.

T24, meet Shaka from South-West.

T26 I see shakas second city relativly close to me... A desert hill
close to food could become a valuable fortress to let shaka suicide
units on...?

T27, Pop3, starting to slow-build a settler.

T28, BW is getting closer, I position my workers on the northernmost
forested riverside grassland, with the intent of chopping and farming
the 3 sites there.

T32, BW is in, copper is revealed on the eastern shore, by the crabs
and the sheep.
At pop4, this city could yield 13 hammers working copper, sheep,
grassland hill and plains hill. Pretty decent.
With gold and crabs and another plains hill, this city will build
axes/swords in 3 turns.

I opt for settling this city second, and postpone the cows/gold site.

T36 second chop finishes a third worker.
T37, Overflow into a fourth worker.

T38, Settler is 87/100 done, and I have 12 production in capital.
TW is one turn away, I position two workers in forests along the way to copper,

T39, I decide to go fishing for the crabs, and for the pottery
discount. The settler is whipped at 99/100.

T40, Pondering a workersteal from Joao, but the location of the worker
is one tile away from a new city of his, if the city has 2 archers, my
warrior is likely toasted. SO I refrain.
40 overflow from settler will finish the fourth worker next turn.

T44, 26 overflow goes into a fifth worker, I'm starting to road toward the cows.
I also realize that monty and shaka are neightbours.

T45, fishing is in, and I'm dropping a pre-chop into a workboat.
T46, Chop goes into completing the fifth worker.

T47, 17 overflow is put into a new settler, I have enough workers for now.
T48, workboat done.

T60, On my way to writing, I see that Joao is getting close to
alphabet. Since he starts with fishing and his capital isn't coastal.
I opt for going sailing and use that as a trade-chip with him, to get
writing.

T78, After some expansion and axemen-building and at 5 cities and 5
workers, I'm starting to feel behind on workers again, I start
building one in copper, and I utilize the overflow from library-whip
in golden cow for workerbuild as well.

T86, Still building workers and axes, I realize that avilable land is
getting short in supply, I want at least another decent city, but
where..?

T96, Joao finally trades alphabet for aestethics.

Picture of the Empire where I'm at now:

Spoiler :

North part of empire:


South part of empire:


Financial situation:


Trade situation:

My evaluation of the precedings, and current situation:

Spoiler :

I'm no doubt in a dire financial situation. at -54 GPT, much thanks to the uppkeep of my axe army of 17 brave soldiers.

I like most of my cities, and the desert fortress is performing way above my expectations, culture-pushing shaka away and since he doesn't have writing yet, that won't change anytime soon.

I do not yet have either MC nor Machinery, I'm behind in tech compared to other players.
I will have my first GScientist in 6 turns from the golden cow (66/100 GPP)
Desert fortress has 36/100
Capital has 45/100, and with the newly settled shanghai to handle the silver, the capital could probably rush the next GScientist.

Self-critique:

Spoiler :

I have 3 things that I think I could have done better in this game:Se
1) Not settle the copper-city second, but instead take the golden cow second, and postpone copper to third city.

2) Not go for sailing... It turned out that joao took way longer to get alphabet than I thought, so I had to self-tech writing anyway.
Also, it seems that someone has aquired sailing, and traded it around to everyone. So I did not get anything for that.
Also, the copper-city doesn't really need a lighthouse to work all tiles at pop6.

3) Not build a axe-army of doom that eats my economy.
The main reason I have this army, is since I whipped some settlers/workers, and had to regrow on something, and the best something I could think of was axes.

What to do now?

Spoiler :

* I need to get my house in financial order.
I could settle the GScientist, and do a academy with the next one, in a city that has the ability to run 2 scientists indefinently.
Or possibly, just blow of a golden age.
Bulbing math doesn't sound that interesting, since I will probably be able to trade it soon. Also, the need for chopping isn't especially high at the moment.

I need to do some skillfull trading, to gain and maintain tech-parity.

* Somehow, I need to leverage my only real advantage, the horde of axemen. 3 of them are promoted to CR2, thanks to a barb-city.
I could attack shaka, and end his pitifull existance while at the same time gaining some valuable land.
I don't really know how high his power is though, so I need to scout.
However, killing shaka would turn monty into my neightbour...
Also, the location of desert fortress make that flank pretty easy to defend.

Perhaps I should go for joao?

Is 17 axes enough to do something worthwhile?

I'm starting to get the feeling that I have screwed up bigtime, not getting the gold-city first, chopping to many workers too early and expanding to fast and built to many axes.

What do you think, was the sailing mistake the "nail in the coffin", or is this game still salvagable?

The save is included. (Using BUG-mod)

I would love getting some feedback on this one! I spent alot of thought on most of my decisions, and I did not reload. I have the feeling that this is a great learning oppertunity for me.

 

[krikav]

Not many takers it seems... Perhaps few are still playing this old map?
If someone has missed this map, I can heartedly recommend it. Alot of nice aspects and suprises. =)