Industrious/Philosophical - too overpowered?

[The Capo]

There has been discussion about using the Industrious/Philosophical trait (which seems to have been intentionally skipped by Firaxis) for Solomon, or possibly another leader, in this mod. Personally I am a bit iffy about using it, but two others so far have said they would be fine with it being included.

As of right now it would be Solomon who would get this trait combo, but this poll isn't about that. I invite anyone to vote and to comment on the issue. I don't know what to do about this, but I sort of lean towards not using it, therefore I will not vote at this time.

I can't wait to see the outcome of this and to see the commentary.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Hehe, awesome that you really added a poll about this

 

[Vortilex]

I'd say, it's happened in history, and if in the next playtest the guy who's got it steamrolls over me, I'll simply do custom games avoiding that guy

 

[Xyth]

One small consideration is that if you keep the +25% production of National Wonders for Nationalistic then it also makes sense to remove it from Industrious (making Industrious World Wonders only).

I don't think this will make a significant difference to the synergies of these two traits though. I think it comes down to the personality of the leader. If this combo was given to a leader like the new Ramesses then the map would be yellow and everyone would be talking Egyptian pretty damn quick.

However if you give it to Solomon (or whoever) and also adjust his personality so that he likes to build wonders only sparingly then I think it would be fine.

 

[Yared]

What Xyth said. New answer down below.

 

[Edgecrusher]

I personally think its too overpowered.

Its not just a matter of adjusting his AI to compensate.
In a mod such as this, that is built around multiplayer play, A human player (I would anyway), who had Solomon could adjust his strategy to:

A) Build Wonders
B) Get GP
C) Lightbulb

This gets the player more advanced than his neighbors, quicker. THus allowing them to have access to wonders sooner, thus more GP, thus more lightbulbing, etc..

Culture Victory becomes easter
Domination/Conquest easter (more advanced units over time), etc..

I think it comes down to the personality of the leader. If this combo was given to a leader like the new Ramesses then the map would be yellow and everyone would be talking Egyptian pretty damn quick

Thats pretty much my point, Ramesses would do (because he is programed to) what any human player would do.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Personally, I don't think it's -that- overpowered.
It's less powerful than say... Hyuana Capac, who is Ind/Fin, starts with Myst, and has a +2 culture granary.

Trait combos... you don't have to worry -too- much about them being overpowered. It's traitcombos + UU + UB synergy that you have to worry about.
So I'm perfectly fine with adding Ind/Phi, just be careful who you give it to.

If I could personally assign the trait to any leader? Meiji.

 

[The Capo]

EC makes good points, that is exactly what I would do in an MP game. , I'd probably do it in a regualr game.

 

[The Almighty dF]

I personally think its too overpowered.

Its not just a matter of adjusting his AI to compensate.
In a mod such as this, that is built around multiplayer play, A human player (I would anyway), who had Solomon could adjust his strategy to:

A) Build Wonders
B) Get GP
C) Lightbulb

This gets the player more advanced than his neighbors, quicker. THus allowing them to have access to wonders sooner, thus more GP, thus more lightbulbing, etc..

Culture Victory becomes easter
Domination/Conquest easter (more advanced units over time), etc..



Thats pretty much my point, Ramesses would do (because he is programed to) what any human player would do.

A human player would do this, and a human player stands a great risk of being conquered by his neighbors.
Ramesses... is sometihng of an unfair example, because Ind/Phi has tremendous synergy with his UB.
It'd probably work best with a civ that has a relatively late UU/UB, to leave them open to learning the lesson that turtling and wonder-building without building up heavy defenses will get you destroyed.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Personally, I don't think it's -that- overpowered.
It's less powerful than say... Hyuana Capac, who is Ind/Fin, starts with Myst, and has a +2 culture granary.

Trait combos... you don't have to worry -too- much about them being overpowered. It's traitcombos + UU + UB synergy that you have to worry about.
So I'm perfectly fine with adding Ind/Phi, just be careful who you give it to.

If I could personally assign the trait to any leader? Meiji.

I agree 100% about Huyana Capac, its why I dont play as him against AI.

My problem with IND/PHI, is you dont need synergy to make it overpowered.
It doesn't take much to Build Wonders --> Which Produce GP ---> Lightbuilb --> Repeat.
Take away UU and UB, and play as a IND/PHI with that strategy.

Also, Imagine if the IND/PHI (Solomon for the example), has Stone or Marble next to him.

All I am saying is that a Mod that is built around Multiplayer games, that is all a human player would have to do. No synergy needed.

It'd probably work best with a civ that has a relatively late UU/UB, to leave them open to learning the lesson that turtling and wonder-building without building up heavy defenses will get you destroyed.

All it will take is a little time to get a few steps ahead in the tech race. i.e. getting to Feudalism or so.

In the end no strategy is perfect. I mean, every other human player could gang up on the PHI/IND before he has a chance to. but, they would have to find them, build up an army strong enough, get there, etc... And that takes the other human players to be proactive and see if a PHI/IND leader exists. If they dont pay attention to that, and the PHI/IND has already popped out the Pyramids, Stonehenge, and a number of Archers, it will probably be to late.

 

[The Almighty dF]

I'll agree that, on multiplayer, it's a bad idea.
MP seems to be all about using strategies like that, Quechua Rush, Praet Rush, etc.
Maybe it'd be best to save an Ind/Phi leader for the Deluxe Edition, if at all.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Of course we must think of using it in the hands of a human player too, not just in the AI
But if we add that trait to a civ with a not too powerful or fairly late UU and UB, the advantage won't be that significant.
TAdF already said: noone can go with all resources on building wonders only, he will be crushed by his neighbors.
So I'm all for adding this trait to a leader like Solomon

 

[The Capo]

If I were to add it, I'd do it for Solomon. But right now I'm becoming increasingly against the idea.

 

[AbsintheRed]

It's an advantade, but not that huge
Just think of what the actual bonuses compared to other Ind. leaders
So in this example, we will have one Ind/Phi leader and another Ind/anything one

Phi get double GPPs. This first few GPs are at 100, 200, 300, 400, 600. Later, the Phi bonus will be much worse (800, 1000, 1200, 1500, etc)
Other Ind leaders will also make wonders as easily as our Phi/Ind leader, so this means:
after 50 base GPPs, the Phi leader get a GP
after 100, the other leader get one
after 150, the first (Phi) leader
after 300, both of them get one - note, that the actual advantage is only 1 GP after 300 GPPs
at 500, the Phi leader
at 600, the other leader
at 800, the Phi leader
at 1000, the other leader
at 1200, the Phi leader
at 1600, the other leader
at 1700, the Phi leader
...

This means he overally gets at about 3 Great Persons throughout the whole game
And we didn't even count the other trait of our second Ind leader, which could also give some serious, even better advantage than this

 

[AbsintheRed]

This combo is powerful, but I really don't know why is everyone that afriad of this
I would definitely use it in Diplomacy II
Maybe for Solomon, maybe for other leader(s), that's up to discussion

 

[Yared]

Wasn't there a thread made some time ago where a poster posted a screenshot of his capital that was filled with settled great people? Do any of you know which one I'm talking about?

 

[The Capo]

I thought you voted FOR using the combo Yared?

 

[Yared]

That was before I realised that this mod is primarily for MP

New answer:

If I end up playing MP seriously with this mod, I'm going to refuse playing with someone who's using IND/PHI. Used by a competent player, it's a nightmare

If Solomon ends up being the only leader for Israel, know that it might not get much action.

I wouldn't mind having it in my SP games though.

 

[AbsintheRed]

As I wrote in my previous posts, Ind/Phi is not much better than other Ind trait combos
That early 1-2 extra GPs are certainly mean an advantage, but so is other early traits, like Cre

Philosophical trait overally means 3-4, max 5 great persons throughout the whole game!

 

[Edgecrusher]

Absinthe,

We have the playtest, change the traits of Solomon to PHI/IND and try a game and see what happens.

You have to remember IND+PHI, = 4GPP per wonder that your building 25% quicker.

Industrious is a strong trait by itself. I cannot dispute that. Philosophical is a quality trait to. The extra wonders for Philosophical will make it much better.