Industrious/Philosophical - too overpowered?

[mechaerik]

I remember someone modded the game so that Mehmed was Ind/Phi. He posted a screenshot of Istanbul with like 20 wonders and around a dozen settled Great People.

 

[Vortilex]

Wow, his score must have been over 9000!

 

[AbsintheRed]

It all depends on the leader's personality
Of course he/she shouldn't have a very high wonderbuild stat

EDIT: Btw, if Istambul really had that many wonders, than Mehmed must have had huge luck with his opponents. If there is at least another wonder-builder or Industrious AI, he won't have a chance for anything like that.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I think it probably wouldn't be as bad as the developers made it to be. Even so, it is an extremely strong combination, so in my opinion there are two possibilities as to what to do with it:

1. Reduce the bonus of either one. My preference is Industrial. In WoL I reduced the Wonder building bonus from 50% to 25% (or something like that), although you could also reduce the bonus of philosophical from 100% to 50%. Then again, this means that you may have to consider what this will do to other leaders' combos.

2. Give Phi/Ind to a leader of a civilization with a weak UU and UB, so it all balances out.

 

[Edgecrusher]

I think it probably wouldn't be as bad as the developers made it to be. Even so, it is an extremely strong combination, so in my opinion there are two possibilities as to what to do with it:

1. Reduce the bonus of either one. My preference is Industrial. In WoL I reduced the Wonder building bonus from 50% to 25% (or something like that), although you could also reduce the bonus of philosophical from 100% to 50%. Then again, this means that you may have to consider what this will do to other leaders' combos.

2. Give Phi/Ind to a leader of a civilization with a weak UU and UB, so it all balances out.

An issue with Option 2, is that what happens to the other leaders of said civ?
For example the discussion is centered on Solomon of Israel.
If Israel is given a weak UU and UB, Joshua, David and Ben Gurion will suffer because they dont have as strong of a trait combination..

 

[AbsintheRed]

He never said to make the UU and UB weaker than it was
Just to give this trait combo to a leader who don't have one of the best/most useful UUs or UBs in the game

 

[Edgecrusher]

It all depends on the leader's personality
Of course he/she shouldn't have a very high wonderbuild stat

EDIT: Btw, if Istambul really had that many wonders, than Mehmed must have had huge luck with his opponents. If there is at least another wonder-builder or Industrious AI, he won't have a chance for anything like that.

I think the poster meant that the Human Player edited Mehmed to have the trait combo, then played as Mehmed.

The AI is not the issue, that can be countered with a low wonder build rate (then you assuming that the random personalities option is not being used), its when its in the hands of a Human Player.

 

[Edgecrusher]

He never said to make the UU and UB weaker than it was
Just to give this trait combo to a leader who don't have one of the best/most useful UUs or UBs in the game

Call it what you want, but the argument to "balance it" is to give it to a leader that doesnt have a good set of UU/UB? (He did say to give it to a leader with a weak UU/UB)
Again, what happens to the other leaders of the Civ without the PHI/IND trait combo?
They now have an weaker UU/UB and an average set of traits?

 

[AbsintheRed]

I think the poster meant that the Human Player edited Mehmed to have the trait combo, then played as Mehmed.

The AI is not the issue, that can be countered with a low wonder build rate (then you assuming that the random personalities option is not being used), its when its in the hands of a Human Player.

Oh yeah, your are right
Then I think he chose his opponents not to have Ind trait and none of them are serious wonder-builder AIs

 

[Edgecrusher]

Oh yeah, your are right
Then I think he chose his opponents not to have Ind trait and none of them are serious wonder-builder AIs

I cant say what the tester did. I didn't see the SS (I do remember the thread though)

But I doubt the game was rigged with non-wonder builders, against that trait combo.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Call it what you want, but the argument to "balance it" is to give it to a leader that doesnt have a good set of UU/UB? (He did say to give it to a leader with a weak UU/UB)
Again, what happens to the other leaders of the Civ without the PHI/IND trait combo?
They now have an weaker UU/UB and an average set of traits?

I meant that we try to balance out the UUs and UBs as good as possible, but of course they never be exactly the same strength
Some of them always will be very good to certain strategies, some of them won't, no matter how hard we try with that balancing project

So I suggested (and think cybrxkhan meant the same) to add this trait combo to a leader who don't have an UB (and UU) which is closely related to wonders and GPs

 

[AbsintheRed]

I cant say what the tester did. I didn't see the SS (I do remember the thread though)

But I doubt the game was rigged with non-wonder builders, against that trait combo.

I did not see that either
But Ind/Phi is not that much better than any other Ind combo as everyone thinks
If both leaders go all-in for building wonders (which is the main strategy with Ind/Phi), than overally he would get only a few GPs more than the other leader. And the other leader has a second trait as well, with another benefit
This is because getting GPs are not linear, it needs increasingly more and more points throughout the game

 

[OzzyKP]

It is overpowered and not included in any version of Civ4 for a reason.

 

[The Capo]

It is overpowered and not included in any version of Civ4 for a reason.

I know you guys don't know who this is, but it is an old (civ) friend. I like the simplicity and straight-forwardness of this response.

Plus he's a local boy. Methinks the combo is out...

 

[Vortilex]

Well, what would happen if you gave it to a weak leader? If you gave it to a strong leader, may the Lord have mercy on our souls. If you gave it to a weak leader, it may bring him up to a competitor.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Well, what would happen if you gave it to a weak leader? If you gave it to a strong leader, may the Lord have mercy on our souls. If you gave it to a weak leader, it may bring him up to a competitor.

Phi/Ind Lincoln.
His UU and UB are really late game, and even with my AI changes he's still not that good compared to Washington and Roosevelt.

 

[The Capo]

No, I have decided the combo is out.

 

[OzzyKP]

I know you guys don't know who this is, but it is an old (civ) friend. I like the simplicity and straight-forwardness of this response.

Plus he's a local boy. Methinks the combo is out...

I'm all about straight-forwardness.

btw, you know my first posts here at CFC? It was during HOTWII when we couldn't do our voting over at Apolyton and were given refuge on the (then) smaller competitor.

 

[The Capo]

HOTWII was an awesome game too.

Let's hope Diplomacy II is just as good a mod.