Interview with Firaxis' Dennis Shirk!

[eviltypeguy]

I totally agree. You can make a new Civ that isn't cIV.5. The problem is, as you said, Shafer 5 isn't it.

I disagree; and your continued snarky comments about calling Civilization 5 "Shafer 5" show your true bias. It's hard to take your comments seriously whenever you continue to indulge in petty name games.

I fervently hope that if we all stand up for your ideals (a good civ game for the rest of us) that we'll get it in Civ VI. That's why I can't support Shafer 5. I feel that supporting this product will be tantamount to validating it. Maybe I'm too idealistic or stubborn or maybe I'm just fighting a losing battle. Time will tell.

Please stop implying that the game will only be better if everyone holds to the same view you have of Civilization V.

 

[Bad Brett]

He kind of blames Shafer for everything. Of course, the only way to prevent them from releasing Shafer VI is to not play the game. That way they may realise that they made a bad decision.

 

[Thormodr]

He kind of blames Shafer for everything. Of course, the only way to prevent them from releasing Shafer VI is to not play the game. That way they may realise that they made a bad decision.

2K Games shares some of the blame too for forcing Firaxis to release the game half baked. I don't agree with Shafer's design and vision but he got seriously screwed by 2K Games as well.

Still, it's his baby. It's Shafer 5 and it will go down as the worst iteration of Civ in history. Shame...

 

[DiabolicX]

I'm guessing wildly here, but I'm going to bet a significant number of sales came from people who haven't played civilization before.

And as someone that has played Civ since the original, I don't feel duped, so please don't imply everyone (or a majority even) feels the way you do.

What is with some people on this forum...its like you have to say everything slowly and concise. Take what I said with a grain of salt would ya?

People as in not everyone people, not some people, not alot of people, not all people, just people...ok?

 

[Gatsby]

"Many" is still a concern, even if it is not the majority

 

[Thormodr]

I disagree; and your continued snarky comments about calling Civilization 5 "Shafer 5" show your true bias. It's hard to take your comments seriously whenever you continue to indulge in petty name games.



Please stop implying that the game will only be better if everyone holds to the same view you have of Civilization V.

It's Shafer's baby so I'll call it Shafer 5. It certainly isn't civilization anymore. Perhaps you'd prefer Panzer General follies or Civilization: Deevolution.

Doesn't matter what you call it though. It's still a dud.

You can have a different view if you like. No one is stopping you.

 

[Lightzy]

I really enjoyed the interview.
Shirk makes really good points. obvious though, except to anyone too full of rage to contain logic.
The interview seems to make a lot of promises though for features to come.

Think of how much time went by between vanilla civ4 at release (eh) and the fully patched BTS (wowza, but still some annoying things)......
The interview seems to promise that many features will be integrated into civ5 in the future in patches/xp packs.
Religion, more diplomacy, espionage...

I only hope that with the upcoming patches and content the people at firaxis abandon this "dude, your 88 year old grandmom and 6 year old nephew has to be able to play this AND WIN IT ON DEFAULT DIFFICULTY or you're all fired" mentality and revert even a bit to what everyone on every civ community seems to want...

At the very least all systems should be balanced so that every strategic/tactical option has its place and there are no exploits whatsoever

 

[eviltypeguy]

It's Shafer's baby so I'll call it Shafer 5. It certainly isn't civilization anymore. Perhaps you'd prefer Panzer General follies or Civilization: Deevolution.

Doesn't matter what you call it though. It's still a dud.

You can have a different view if you like. No one is stopping you.

And you can call Civilization 5 "Shafer 5" all you want; it doesn't make it factually true.

Sid's name is still on it; he allowed it and we know Sid has played it.

It also clearly shares many core concepts with previous Civilization games, so I think your vague insinuations are not well justified.

 

[SuperJay]

I think your vague insinuations are not well justified.

Duly noted. I'm sure Thor will be devastated to learn of your disapproval.

 

[Bad Brett]

And you can call Civilization 5 "Shafer 5" all you want; it doesn't make it factually true.

Sid's name is still on it; he allowed it and we know Sid has played it.

It also clearly shares many core concepts with previous Civilization games, so I think your vague insinuations are not well justified.

Sid had some great ideas 20 years ago (Pirates!, Railroad Tycoon, Civilization), but I feel that he deserves about 10% of the credit he gets. Brian Reynolds designed Colonization, Civilization II and Alpha Centauri, possibly the three greatest Firaxis/Microprose games released, along with Civ IV (designed by Soren Johnsen).

The games Sid Meier has designed the last decade have mostly been crap:

SimGolf, Railroads!, Civilization: Revolution



Team up Brian Reynolds and Soren Johnsen to make Civilization VI with Sid Meier as supervisor, let Shafer port Shafer 5 to consoles.

 

[serikas]

I really hope Shafer wanted more good civ systems in it but then time/money ran out, and planning to have them in expansions.. though stuff like global hapiness makes be doubtful.

And if this is really as Shafer's design goal, then Firaxis should give him paper, scissors, and some crayons to make civ p&p board game, and let someone else lead the design.

 

[Benzidrine]

along with Civ IV (designed by Soren Johnsen).

Soren Johnsen personally wrote the entire AI for civ 3 and 4 then he went on to work on spore. I wouldn't want to see him back on the design team for civ 6 with those "credentials".

 

[Monadenia]

I don't really see what's shocking here. There has always been an attempt to streamline Civ games, which is to say make it easier for people who aren't Civ players to become Civ players.

Here's a link to a Civ IV Q&A that talks about how they were doing a lot of streamlining. Talking about the firepower system from Civ II, for instance, we have Civ IV Senior Producer Barry Caudill:

That system was a bit too complex and many people struggled to understand it; so, like many other things in Civ IV, we decided to streamline the process.

I guess this means they were trying to dumb down Civ IV, too? Personally, I don't see it that way. What I see is the constant struggle to, while keeping the core Civ values (as they have done with every game), make it easier for more people to become familiar with and enjoy the games.

 

[Pnutmaster]

Soren Johnsen personally wrote the entire AI for civ 3 and 4 then he went on to work on spore. I wouldn't want to see him back on the design team for civ 6 with those "credentials".

Don't be so quick to condemn the man for Spore. It had potential, and it too was streamlined in the end (compare e3 demos of the game back to back).

I think Firaxis has forgotten why we love "complex" games. I was proud to master the "enigmatic" interface of Civ IV, and appreciated it all the more once I had. There's a sense of ownership there that I can't feel towards Civ V. This was reflected in the way I accidentally won my first Civ V game--it was a hollow victory that anyone could have achieved.

 

[Geddy]

I'm guessing wildly here, but I'm going to bet a significant number of sales came from people who haven't played civilization before.

I reckon that they will get hardly any. Who bought that game?

 

[Osetjka]

And yes, as BtS pleased the hardcore fans, they decided to make 5 appeal more to those who might have loved Rev and wanted something more--but who may not be ready to leap into Civ 4's complexity.

Indeed that is damning, if not honest. I rest my case.

On another note, I do like the term "angry forumer".

 

[Disgustipated]

Ok, some more highlights:

Shirk mentioned how Civ 4 with BtS was considered to be near "perfect balance" by hardcore fans. Making Civ 5, they knew that making a better balanced game would be--"How do you make something over Beyond the Sword?" So they decided to change game concepts and such. And yes, as BtS pleased the hardcore fans, they decided to make 5 appeal more to those who might have loved Rev and wanted something more--but who may not be ready to leap into Civ 4's complexity.

Montezuma's voice actor did his voiceover in Mexico at a studio there. Shirk also mentioned Darius' Aramaic v. Farsi, and how fans would generally notice historical inconsistencies and such in Civ--concerning the Darius debate, they had the community manager go on to the site to confirm Darius was speaking Aramaic, which was considered more accurate for his time.

Social Policies were made permanent because Shafer wanted people to develop a system over time that would be meaningful and not simply switched around. Shafer would be able to answer more fully the question why Social Policies are permanent, Shirk emphasized--but historically the idea is that you put "ideas into your people"--Americans who are democratic would be hard pressed to suddenly switch to Communism, is the *imo pretty good* example Shirk gave.

"Balance is ongoing"--esp. with the Civ series. To quote, Shirk said the testing team was a "fraction of a fraction of a percent of the total number of users" and that therefore future feedback and current feedback will play a part in later balance patches etc.

"We love the people who make enormous complex mods"--Shirk mentioned he knew forumers would include people who analyze, down to tiles and such--who would deliver constructive criticism--and really angry forumers, and people who were ecstatic--and people somewhere in the middle.

Shirk mentioned he was excited by the "amazing" mods that showed up within the first week of SDK's release, and that giving moddability to fans was one truly exciting aspect of the game for the designers (as the mods etc would surprise/delight them).

I just wanted to point out to Schaffer America is slowly becoming communist. It can happen. All you need is the schools to brainwash the kids...

 

[zonk]

I don't really see what's shocking here. There has always been an attempt to streamline Civ games, which is to say make it easier for people who aren't Civ players to become Civ players.

Here's a link to a Civ IV Q&A that talks about how they were doing a lot of streamlining. Talking about the firepower system from Civ II, for instance, we have Civ IV Senior Producer Barry Caudill:


I guess this means they were trying to dumb down Civ IV, too? Personally, I don't see it that way. What I see is the constant struggle to, while keeping the core Civ values (as they have done with every game), make it easier for more people to become familiar with and enjoy the games.

In a way, I guess you could say my complaint is that it just feels like the first time they 'succeeded'

 

[moscaverde]

Sid had some great ideas 20 years ago (Pirates!, Railroad Tycoon, Civilization), but I feel that he deserves about 10% of the credit he gets. Brian Reynolds designed Colonization, Civilization II and Alpha Centauri, possibly the three greatest Firaxis/Microprose games released, along with Civ IV (designed by Soren Johnsen).

The games Sid Meier has designed the last decade have mostly been crap:

SimGolf, Railroads!, Civilization: Revolution



Team up Brian Reynolds and Soren Johnsen to make Civilization VI with Sid Meier as supervisor, let Shafer port Shafer 5 to consoles.

This, unfurtunately.

 

[Thormodr]

Sid had some great ideas 20 years ago (Pirates!, Railroad Tycoon, Civilization), but I feel that he deserves about 10% of the credit he gets. Brian Reynolds designed Colonization, Civilization II and Alpha Centauri, possibly the three greatest Firaxis/Microprose games released, along with Civ IV (designed by Soren Johnsen).

The games Sid Meier has designed the last decade have mostly been crap:

SimGolf, Railroads!, Civilization: Revolution



Team up Brian Reynolds and Soren Johnsen to make Civilization VI with Sid Meier as supervisor, let Shafer port Shafer 5 to consoles.

That would be the dream team all right.