Is the Heroic Epic the worst national wonder?

[pilot00]

Zulu in particular can be scarry with all promotions from the military buildings.
The kerpost (or whatever the Russians have) is pretty useless IMHO (aside from the barracks function that is).

 

[Rhaegar7]

Having just finished my first game in BNW I can tell you this: I got stolen only two times around in the medieval era, and I had Monty of all, to coup my CS around 10 times in the whole game. I build the NIA because I wanted to sent my spy as diplomat to spread some more tourism to the final capital. Vs the AI spies now get a backseat, vs Humans though they can still prove critical.

The additional spy is really useful for converting city states and leveling up 6 spies is not bad at all. For a 2 city tall build it's like 10 turns of production total to get the required buildings and Nationa wonder, so it's a no brainer. Having the advantage in spy wars is more useful than most people realize. I guess most people are too lazy to micromanage them carefully.

And the Heroic epic is no brainer early, because it's rare that a solid build will have you on more than 2 cities at that point and it's really worth the small production cost.

 

[pilot00]

The additional spy is really useful for converting city states and leveling up 6 spies is not bad at all. For a 2 city tall build it's like 10 turns of production total to get the required buildings and Nationa wonder, so it's a no brainer. Having the advantage in spy wars is more useful than most people realize. I guess most people are too lazy to micromanage them carefully.

Not so in single player right now it seems. The stealing and coupfest that happened in G&Ks seems to have abated, I honestly wonder what the heck does the AI do with its spies now?

Even in G&Ks to be honest I only invested if I had techs stolen every turn or if the tech gap was small. I can build a lot of more useful things on my cities on those 10 turns to be honest.

 

[Moai_Spammer]

 

[joncnunn]

I honestly wonder what the heck does the AI do with its spies now?

My best guess is diplomats.
But perhaps they also now keep a spy at home in their capital.

 

[pilot00]

My best guess is diplomats.
But perhaps they also now keep a spy at home in their capital.

Might be, do you get a notification if they send a diplomat or can you see it somewhere? I haven't seen anything.

 

[Matthew.]

Heroic Epic doesn't scale well with difficulty. Great to eventually get for later game units, but there is simply not enough time to utilize it in early game without crippling yourself.

 

[bcaiko]

I really cant understand how you chaps can produce the military hardware needed for a domination game with only one city. The military requirements are enormous...Then again I assume most are playing Pangea with a lot of re-rolls for good starts.

It depends what your strategy is. If you need to Jaguar rush your neighbors right away, then no Heroic Epic is probably not right for you. But if you're waiting for Iron Working to come online for some powerful UUs, you can easily put in a HE before facerolling your neighbors.

Not to mention BNW made this whole process a ton easier. Honor now cuts down the time on building barracks, and if you somehow get to the point where you haven't built the HE, you want it, one of your cities doesn't have a barracks, and you have a city with a workshop, you can send that city production to get it done (or send production to the city producing the HE).

 

[Catan_Settler]

It's a question of quality vs quantity. You can either spam more units and have more of them die off, or you can invest in the Epic and get away with building a few less troops since they're all stronger. Both approaches work. I'd say the Epic is definitely worth it, but it's not a game changer. If you're all boxed in and need to take someone out to get your 3rd or 4th city settled, well it might be better to just crank out a few extra troops and get the war started sooner. If you have time and breathing room, then get it built first before you start building your army up.

 

[IkM]

No, definitely not worst. if you play little bit aggressive you'll find Heroic Epic very useful.

 

[Catan_Settler]

Yeah, worst goes to National Treasury IMO. All those hammers for 8 GPT? Meh.

 

[Unresolved]

Yeah, worst goes to National Treasury IMO. All those hammers for 8 GPT? Meh.

You could always use the National Treasury to pre-build since it's likely you'll have markets in all of your cities. But you can't pre-build with the NIA because you won't have constabularies everywhere(or anywhere for that matter).

 

[Sequm]

This is why I like OCC. I built it in G&K Deity OCC because I ran out of thing to build and it was a super-peaceful game (3 crossbows lol).

 

[Matthew.]

It's a question of quality vs quantity.

The bonus isn't that large. Between terrain, promotions, GG, etc., it is just another 15% thrown into a large pool of 15%'s.

I'd say its best use isn't to get an edge in damage, but to make up for lost damage. That is, when replacing or adding military later on in the game they are significantly weaker than the ones you already have stacked with promos. The 15% just helps bridge the gap so your reinforcements are relatively equal in power.

 

[VainoValkea]

I actually built police stations in all of my cities just to get NIA and that one extra diplomat/delegate.

 

[dopingman]

I tried HE a few times now in BNW and despite being powerful, the 2 to 3 units you can crank out are more useful early game. A good point to build HE is imo in the middle ages, before your Unis come online and you will upgrade your classical army rather then building new units. This usually only requires 2 to 3 additional barracks and your cities should have enough production to build them quickly. After this point HE looses value again as there are usually more important things to build afterwards, e.g. gold/culture/more units/etc.

 

[Wuddel]

The NIA is pretty good to level up your spies when you can't really steal anymore. The Heroic Epic should have the same behaviour as the Assurian Royal Library, but with only 5 XP or something.

 

[Cicerosaurus]

On the NIA, it's the only thing that in G&K finally brings spy stealing down to a reasonable rate. But it appears based on the help text that you actually need to build it in some city other than your capital.

Could someone please assist and explain why you need to build it outside your capital?

I can't find a reason.

 

[dexters]

NIA requiring police stations which means it also requires constabularies is the difficult part.

But as a national wonder, it's useful. 1 free spy helps for UN voting, and general late game shenanigans, and it works well for tall players.

Still even if you cap yourself at 4 cities, its a lot of hammers to invest just to unlock it.

Was relatively easy to get with Venice tho; one of the unstated bonuses of not being able to settle/annex more than 1 city.

 

[joncnunn]

Could someone please assist and explain why you need to build it outside your capital?

I can't find a reason.

This is in G&K: Go to the esposiage screen after you've built it anywhere. Notice when you high light over your own cities that the text says you've goten an X% reduction in potential for every city in your empire EXCEPT the city you built it in.
As the Capital almost always has the highest potential, it's the city most important to get all reductions in potential in.
(In addition, the AI seems aware of this and only attempts to steal a tech from a non capital if that city did have as good a science rate as your capital.)

In BNW, this might not matter as much; it appears the AI is mostly using spies for diplomats. But the national wonder itself is still a nice way to get an additional spy or diplomat and in addition levels up your spies to increase odds of coup success.