Is the UK a nation, or merely a state?

[Gainy]

@ellie - I dont want scotland to become idependant, i recignoise that we(scotland) would probably be worse off if we were, than as we are now.

I can't really speak on behalf of Scotland, but i wouldn't say that we feel "opressed". There are alot of people that are very "Anti-English", and alot of them dont like the idea of being "ruled"(i know we are not) by the English. But they cant really care THAT much about it, otherwise they would have voted for independence by now.

And yes, alot of people feel that the union is not beneficial to them, but there is an equal amount that feels that it is.

I feel the sitation, as it is now, is probably the best for Scotland.

 

[ellie]

Of course scotland is a nation.

And its people get a voice in the british parliament. A citizen of glasgow can vote for an mp with a voice in parliament just as i can vote for an MP in my area.

@Calgacus

Do you want independant parliament, ie tax raising abilities etc

Or a complete break, ie seperate military, foreign, policy no link to england at all?

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by ellie

@Calgacus

Do you want independant parliament, ie tax raising abilities etc

Or a complete break, ie seperate military, foreign, policy no link to england at all?

I would want a sovereign state, with as many links to England as is appropriate in individual circumstances

i recignoise that we(scotland) would probably be worse off if we were, than as we are now

Can I ask why? I what sense? Culturally? Economically? Morally? What?

 

[Gainy]

@calgacus - I meant Economically. Although, Culturally i think we'd probably be better off if we were independant.

 

[ellie]

@Gainy bo
Hmm this is interesting, i dont know many scottish guys (more welsh people around here ;p ) so i had no idea the anti english feeling was so strong. The only scottish guy ive seriously chatted to about it was a university friends dad

he had served in the scottish infantry for years (the finest infantry in the world btw). And certainly considered himself british AND scottish.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Gainy bo
@calgacus - I meant Economically. Although, Culturally i think we'd probably be better off if we were independant.

That seems to be a common perception. It isn't based on the arguments, because they don't prove anything. I would be careful about it though, the arguments are very complex and ambiguous. No one really knows what economic state would result from an independent Scotland. I can't see how a government geared towards the economy of SE England could be better than one geared specificly to a small nation like Scotland. At the moment we have one of the slowest growing economies in Europe, it doesn't seem likely that growth can get much worse

I think the perception is based historically, since it was economically beneficial to be joined with the world's largest trading nation. The international situation and England's position and role in the world economy today make that perception ridiculously obselete.

 

[redtom]

Britain is a nation-state of sorts. The victorians tried to create British patriotism by trying to aline Britishness with Englishness and on a more liberal side, tried to write how all the people of the isles were once celts etc. etc. Strangely the Scots felt the most passionately British during the 19th century.

These days according to the surveys its not the native born Englishman, Scot or Welshman who feel the most British its are revent arrival to are shores - the immigrant.

I feel more British then English.

I believe that no one really wants a total split in the union especially in my own experience - Wales, so they could be seen as the most British of the nations of these isles. Welsh nationalism is essentially big talk for small things - wales is simply to small and undeveloped (I would go far to say it is relatively a third world country) to 'go its own way'. Wales is simply a desert state without the oil, it produces very little other than radioactive Lamb and gets a lot from its Eastern and Northern neighbours.

I admit the paragraph could be accused of slagging of the Welsh, but I like the Welsh and I like Wales - after all I choose to live there. But its the brutal economics that wales is just to mountainous and short on anything else that it can't exist without Britain.

Scotland on the other hand as my Scottish friend keeps reminding me produces oil - big f*cking deal I always say - it produces not a lot of a poor quality (the oil is best suited to plastic production - being a 'heavy' oil). Scotland is no economic giant compared with England - but the same could be said vice-versa - we British people need to cooperate not bicker over some pointless fact seeing that we are all going to end up in an European super-state. And its through this cooperation that will benefit both are nations in the European Parliament.

N.B. The mention of radioactive is unfortunately true, much of the fall out from Chenobyl fell on the welsh mountains. So much so that you can't sell the sheep on the market - the government pays for them and destroys them so that it doesn't impoverish pastoral welsh communities

 

[CurtSibling]

Originally posted by ellie
Well if im asked my nationality, i tend to say british.

Of course it is a union, and i know that scotland in particular wants divorce from that union.

But when even their own business leaders warn that would be an economic nightmare it is worrying for them.

I wouldn't agree there.

Most people I know are quite happy to remain part of the UK.

Myself included.

I refuse however, to salute a foreign monarch, be that Bush or Queen Liz II.

 

[MrPresident]

I would want a sovereign state, with as many links to England as is appropriate in individual circumstances

Would you want the pound, Euro or some kind of Scottish currency? Would you independently join the EU? Would you be responsible for defending your shores or would the Royal Navy have to do that? Would you create your own army? Would you encourage the development of a Scottish lanaguage? Would you support the independent from Scotland of your region if the people wanted it? If no, why not?

I would want a sovereign state, with as many links to England as is appropriate in individual circumstances

An English Parliament would only have English MPs. I thought that was obvious.

The fact that almost one 10th of the MPs are representing Scotland doesn't change that.

Scottish MPs can vote on English matters but English MPs cannot vote on Scottish matters. How can that possibly be justified?

In fact, the Union of England and Scotland was a political annexation, carried out and secured by military and economic force.

It was the 16th century, what did you expect? A referendum to be held?

You are under the impression that the UK is a genuine, federal style union.

No I am not but it is certainly heading in that direction.

I refuse however, to salute a foreign monarch, be that Bush or Queen Liz II.

 

[CurtSibling]

I would however, happily have tea with Bush or QE2 if they invited me!

 

[MrPresident]

I would also but only if they served crumpets as well.

 

[ellie]

hehe curt unless you become an army officer or something you wont have to swear allegiance ;p

WRT to economics, well scotland would prolly have rights to the oil and gas (it is in the north after all). However the oil and gas is fast running out so its not a long term solution.

WRT to the slow economic growth. Well ive heard it argued that its bad choices for scotland in parliament which suit se england not scotland.
But also a big factor is the fact scotlands population is aging so fast. Scotland receives less immigration than england.

Militarily: well that makes me shudder. The finest soldiers are the scottish ones, scots guards, black watch, dragoons etc. The scottish traditionally form a disproportionally high contingent of the uk forces. I imagine scotland could not afford to maintain them all so job losses there would abound. Questions over who would own the SSBN's etc as well, ugh would be a mess. Scotland would suffer, and the UK would lose some of its most potent armed forces

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by MrPresident

Would you want the pound, Euro or some kind of Scottish currency? Would you independently join the EU? Would you be responsible for defending your shores or would the Royal Navy have to do that? Would you create your own army? Would you encourage the development of a Scottish lanaguage? Would you support the independent from Scotland of your region if the people wanted it? If no, why not?

Why do you think these matters are relevant?

Obviously Scotland, like any independent state, would be sovereign over its armed forces and all of these issues.

The region point is one for all states anywhere, and it is not relevant to Scotland in particular.

It was the 16th century, what did you expect? A referendum to be held?

Well, it was the 18th century.

But the point is, it was an annexation, not a Union.

Scottish MPs can vote on English matters but English MPs cannot vote on Scottish matters. How can that possibly be justified?

I wasn't saying that it was justified, but the matter is in the hands of the House of Commons, which is overwhelmingly English.

An English Parliament would only have English MPs. I thought that was obvious.

It was an English parliament that admitted Scottish MPs. All sovereignty lies in the hands of this parliament, not the one that was abolished in 1707, or "recreated" in 1999. It can give, and it can taketh away.

 

[Richard III]

Britain is a nation. It may be becoming less so, but it certainly is, and was in the preceding centuries.

The best articulation of this by far is "Britons," by Linda Colley. What's really great about the book, too, is that it is obviously designed to be skeptical, arguing that the British nation was created as a jingoistic protestant response to a hostile world; a great big muscular island middle finger to the triple threat of europeanism, papism and the French. And that this national creation is now obsolete because those threats aren't real, or so Colley implies.

But it's like watching Wall Street; clearly, you're not supposed to be watching to cheer Gordon Gekko on. But you do...

R.III

 

[MrPresident]

Why do you think these matters are relevant?

I think those matters show how your idea for an independent Scotland is completely unrealistic.

I wasn't saying that it was justified, but the matter is in the hands of the House of Commons, which is overwhelmingly English.

So? There are more English in Britain than Scots so we should have more MPs in Parliament. I don't see why that is a problem though. The English MPs do not do what they think is right for England. They do what they think is right for their electorate or for Britain.

All sovereignty lies in the hands of this parliament

This Parliament elected by the people of the United Kingdom.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by MrPresident

I think those matters show how your idea for an independent Scotland is completely unrealistic.

That's a strange remark Care to elaborate?

So? There are more English in Britain than Scots so we should have more MPs in Parliament. I don't see why that is a problem though.
This Parliament elected by the people of the United Kingdom..

Yes, it is fair if, and only if, individual human beings are used as the only constituent part of any human grouping. But in fact, nations are constituent parts too, and it's hardly fair that one nation loses political control just because another has more people. But again, this is a side issue.

The English MPs do not do what they think is right for England. They do what they think is right for their electorate or for Britain.

They do what they think is right, if they do that at all, for whichever group they attach themselves to. There'll be times when they'll do "what is right" for a social group, a special interest group, for England (as is the case for a good proportion of HoCs matters), for themselves or for the UK in general.

Hardly something that one can pin a generalization on

EDIT: My Typos

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by redtom

I believe that no one really wants a total split in the union especially in my own experience - Wales, so they could be seen as the most British of the nations of these isles. Welsh nationalism is essentially big talk for small things - wales is simply to small and undeveloped (I would go far to say it is relatively a third world country) to 'go its own way'. Wales is simply a desert state without the oil, it produces very little other than radioactive Lamb and gets a lot from its Eastern and Northern neighbours.

I admit the paragraph could be accused of slagging of the Welsh, but I like the Welsh and I like Wales - after all I choose to live there. But its the brutal economics that wales is just to mountainous and short on anything else that it can't exist without Britain.

communities

That's an outrageous paragraph. Lots of loud claims, but no evidence. Wales a third world country?

I'm calling phoenix_night to deal with you

Scotland on the other hand as my Scottish friend keeps reminding me produces oil - big f*cking deal I always say - it produces not a lot of a poor quality (the oil is best suited to plastic production - being a 'heavy' oil). Scotland is no economic giant compared with England - but the same could be said vice-versa - .

Actually, the oil is destined to last for alot longer. I've got a figure somewhere, but its at the bottom of my cabinet

It doesn't really matter, since natural resources are usually peripheral to a nation's economic health. Human skills and infrastructure are what countries need more.

we British people need to cooperate not bicker over some pointless fact seeing that we are all going to end up in an European super-state.

I don't see why the Scots should be tied to England. It's a country with a ruling class that despise us. Besides, we should be able to co-operate with any one we want, not be tied to one nation.

And its through this cooperation that will benefit both are nations in the European Parliament

Both nations can co-operate if it suits their interests with an independent Scotland. In fact, it would be necessary for co-operation, since at present it is one nation dragged behind another(not necessarily unwillingly), rather than forward together.

 

[Kentonio]

I don't see why the Scots should be tied to England. It's a country with a ruling class that despise us. Besides, we should be able to co-operate with any one we want, not be tied to one nation.

Oh sort your head out, yeah the 'ruling class' really despite you, like the Chancellor of the Exchequer for instance, Gordon Brown obviously despises his own people as does the Leader of the House of Commons, John Reid (Hamilton North & Bellshill), not to mention of course the spin doctor Alistair Darling (Edinburgh Central), the Lord Chancellor Lord Irvine of Lairg amongst many, many others.

Oh silly me and Tony Blair, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom was born where? Oh yes Edinburgh. God you Scots are so under-represented it really is a shocking scandal.

 

[gael]

Its starting to get hot in this thread.


I heard someone mention the future of a Scottish military if it became fully independent.
They could always look across the water to Ireland as an example. The republics army is armed to the teeth with spud guns and empty beer bottles.

Wo betide the nation who tries to pick a fight.

 

[Pangur Bán]

Originally posted by Kentonio


Oh sort your head out, yeah the 'ruling class' really despite you, like the Chancellor of the Exchequer for instance, Gordon Brown obviously despises his own people as does the Leader of the House of Commons, John Reid (Hamilton North & Bellshill), not to mention of course the spin doctor Alistair Darling (Edinburgh Central), the Lord Chancellor Lord Irvine of Lairg amongst many, many others.

Oh silly me and Tony Blair, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom was born where? Oh yes Edinburgh. God you Scots are so under-represented it really is a shocking scandal.

Kentonio, since I didn't explain properly, I'll ignore your base tone and explain myself now.

Is it so paradoxical that people from one country should despise their homeland? It's actually quite common in Scotland. Scottish history is neglected in schools, the Scottish media is full of journalists who drop their Rs and affect English accents and everyone is convinced that independence wouldn't work, despite most of the evidence pointing to the contrary. Scotland is a nation diseased by it own lack of self-worth.

And Tony Blair isn't Scottish, at least, nothing about his personality or politics suggests that, and he has said on many occassions that he is English.