Is Vegetarianism a Teen Eating Disorder?

[warpus]

That's news to me...

That's cause I made it up

 

[mrt144]

You mean like actually eating green vegetables.

My period only last two days so I don't lose much iron.

Heme-iron isn't absolutely necessary.

You should have this looked into.

 

[Narz]

Most guys don't want to look into it during those two days.

 

[mrt144]

Most guys don't want to look into it during those two days.

Why are you having a period, guy?

 

[innonimatu]

Why are you having a period, guy?

And we thought Caster Semenya had a problem!

 

[Masada]

Because the whole idea of there being something we are 'supposed' to do is meaningless, while 'designed' just lands us in God said so territory, which would of course be more logically consistent, but clearly no more productive. I'm quite happy to step outside the realm of strictly academic debate, but a vulgar argument which remains meaningful should generally retain some analogue with academic discourse. What precisely do you mean when you say 'supposed'? The evolution of the omnivorous diet occurred without any intent, as your choice of word appears to suggest.

See, this is the problem. Instead of going into absolutely ridiculous hair-pulling that the majority of people don't care a whit for. I adopted the vernacular which is accessible to everyone. Your purposely construing meaning into words which I admitted I chose for accessibility. I suggest you do some close reading activities.

An appeal to nature seems to rest on two dubious premises - that 'nature' in this context isn't completely meaningless, and that if it existed it would be a somehow desirable thing to emulate. That's where I see a bizarre reverance for choices made when we were utterly ignorant of everything over the scientifically informed choices we can each make today. If you didn't make an appeal to nature then this criticism doesn't apply to you.

I didn't. Maybe you could learn to read?

This biological objection of yours sounds awfully like an anecdotal objection based on inconvenience, and one that you could quite legitmately make without all of this weird talk of us being intended to do this and that by unspecified designers.

No, it isn't. Also, the usual recommendation.

Iron and zinc are currently the trace minerals of greatest concern when considering the nutritional value of vegetarian diets. With elimination of meat and increased intake of phytate-containing legumes and whole grains, the absorption of both iron and zinc is lower with vegetarian than with nonvegetarian, diets. The health consequences of lower iron and zinc bioavailability are not clear, especially in industrialized countries with abundant, varied food supplies, where nutrition and health research has generally supported recommendations to reduce meat and increase legume and whole-grain consumption. Although it is clear that vegetarians have lower iron stores, adverse health effects from lower iron and zinc absorption have not been demonstrated with varied vegetarian diets in developed countries, and moderately lower iron stores have even been hypothesized to reduce the risk of chronic diseases. Premenopausal women cannot easily achieve recommended iron intakes, as modified for vegetarians, with foods alone; however, the benefit of routine iron supplementation has not been demonstrated. It may be prudent to monitor the hemoglobin of vegetarian children and women of childbearing age.

[...]

Eliminating meat from the diet can be accomplished with minimal effect on the total dietary iron content. In Western countries, vegetarian diets can contain as much or more iron than mixed diets containing animal flesh (2–4). For example, Calkins et al (2) reported the iron contents of vegan, lactoovovegetarian, and nonvegetarian diets of Seventh-day Adventists, and nonvegetarian diets of a control group of non–Seventh-day Adventists, as (x – ± SE) 18.0 ± 1.6, 14.2 ± 0.8, 14.4 ± 0.9, and 16.1 ± 1.1 mg Fe/d, respectively, when assessed by a 3-d food record. The total iron content f a diet, however, provides little information about its content of bioavailable iron, which is considerably influenced by the foods in the diet and can vary 10-fold from different meals of similar iron content (5). Although a vegetarian diet is likely to contain iron in amounts equivalent to amounts in a nonvegetarian diet, the iron from a vegetarian diet is likely to be substantially less available for absorption (6) because of differences in the chemical form of iron and the accompanying constituents that enhance or inhibit iron absorption [Figure 1, with data from Hunt et al (7–9)].

[...]

The iron and zinc from vegetarian diets are generally less bioavailable than from nonvegetarian diets because of reduced meat intake as well as the tendency to consume more phytic acid and other plant-based inhibitors of iron and zinc absorption. However, in Western countries with varied and abundant food supplies, it is not clear that this reduced bioavailability has any functional consequences. Although vegetarians tend to have lower iron stores than omnivores, they appear to have no greater incidence of iron deficiency anemia.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=1357392

In Europe, iron deficiency is considered to be one of the main nutritional deficiency disorders affecting large fractions of the population, particularly such physiological groups as children, menstruating women and pregnant women. Some factors such as type of contraception in women, blood donation or minor pathological blood loss (haemorrhoids, gynaecological bleeding,..) considerably increase the difficulty of covering iron needs. Moreover, women, especially adolescents consuming lowenergy diets, vegetarians and vegans are at high risk of iron deficiency.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=6a7990fd5dd0a4352e0d7fe2162fe962

Nutritional intake and iron status were investigated in 35 vegetarians (15 vegetarian males, 20 vegetarian females) and 32 nonvegetarians (13 vegetarian males, 19 nonvegetarian females). Each subject completed a 12-d diet record. Hemoglobin, plasma iron, ferritin, total iron binding capacity, and transferrin saturation were measured. Vegetarians had lower dietary fat, protein, fiber, vitamin A, iron, cholesterol and sodium intakes than nonvegetarians. No significant differences were found in carbohydrate, thiamin, vitamin C, and calcium intakes between the 2 major groups. Although vegetarians had lower iron intake than nonvegetarians, their iron intake was 275% and 142% above the Taiwan Recommended Daily Nutrient Allowance (RDNA) for vegetarian males and females (p < 0.05), respectively. One vegetarian female was in an anemia stage with a plasma iron level of 32 &#956;g/dL; 2 female subjects (1 vegetarian, 1 nonvegetarian) had anemic ferritin levels (< 10 ng/mL); 5 vegetarian females and 1 nonvegetarian female subject had anemic total iron binding capacity levels> 410 &#956;g/dL; and 3 vegetarian males, 6 vegetarian females and 1 nonvegetarian female showed anemia with transferrin saturation < 15%. Six vegetarian females and 1 nonvegetarian female were anemic because they had two or more abnormal biochemical indices of iron status. Although vegetarian subjects had sufficient iron intake, the bioavailability of iron seemed limited to maintaining iron balance, especially in women.

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteD...tikelNr=77045&Ausgabe=229852&ProduktNr=223977

Background: As shown in previous studies vegetarians and especially vegans are at risk for iron deficiency. Our study evaluated the iron status of German female vegans. Methods: In this cross-sectional study, the dietary intakes of 75 vegan women were assessed by two 9-day food frequency questionnaires. The iron status was analyzed on the basis of blood parameters. Results: Mean daily iron intake was higher than recommended by the German Nutrition Society. Still 42% of the female vegans <50 years (young women, YW) had a daily iron intake of <18 mg/day, which is the recommended allowance by the US Food and Nutrition Board. The main dietary sources of iron were vegetables, fruits, cereals and cereal products. Median serum ferritin concentrations were 14 ng/ml for YW and 28 ng/ml for women ge50 years (old women, OW). In all, 40% (tri-index model (TIM) 20%) of the YW and 12% (TIM 12%) of the OW were considered iron-deficient based on either serum ferritin levels of <12 ng/ml or a TIM. Only 3 women had blood parameters which are defined as iron deficiency anemia. Correlations between serum ferritin levels and dietary factors were not found. Conclusion: Although the mean iron intake was above the recommended level, 40% (TIM 20%) of the YW were considered iron-deficient. It is suggested that especially YM on a vegan diet should have their iron status monitored and should consider taking iron supplements in case of a marginal status.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/59/5/1233S

An appropriately planned well-balanced vegetarian diet is compatible with an adequate iron status. Although the iron stores of vegetarians may be reduced, the incidence of iron-deficiency anemia in vegetarians is not significantly different from that in omnivores. Restrictive vegetarian diets (eg, macrobiotic) are associated with more widespread iron-deficiency anemia. Western vegetarians who consume a variety of foods have a better iron status than do those in developing countries who consume a limited diet based on unleavened, unrefined cereals. Whereas phytates, polyphenolics, and other plant constituents found in vegetarian diets inhibit nonheme-iron absorption, vitamin C, citric acid, and other organic acids facilitate nonheme-iron absorption.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=888164

Vegetarians of three types were studied in Greater London:thirty-four meat-avoiders, fifty-two lacto- ovo-vegetarians, and thirty-eight vegans. Weighed dietary intake measures were made over 3 d. Cereals were the mainstay of the diet, supplemented by dairy products (demi-vegetarians and lacto-ovo- vegetarians), vegetables and fruit, and soya-bean products (vegans). Many vegans progressed by stages to complete avoidance of animal foods; some had retreated, but most were highly committed. Demi- vegetarians were the least involved in a &#8216;vegetarian lifestyle&#8217;. All groups had mean energy intakes close to the current dietary reference values (DRV), with adequate protein intakes. Only vegans had fat intakes close to current recommendations; all groups had high dietary po1yunsaturated:saturated fatty acid ratios. Mean intakes of all micronutrients studied for demi- and lacto-ovo-vegetarians met the UK DRV. Intakes of iodine, riboflavin, and vitamin B12 for vegans were below DRV; more than half considered their diets supplied all necessary vitamins. About 25% took some type of dietary supplement during the survey. The impact of low I intakes should be further studied, and it is recommended that &#8216;new&#8217; vegetarians and vegans should use appropriate dietary supplements.

Somewhere along the line I forgot to provide the link and then closed the tab for the top one

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

See, this is the problem. Instead of going into absolutely ridiculous hair-pulling that the majority of people don't care a whit for. I adopted the vernacular which is accessible to everyone. Your purposely construing meaning into words which I admitted I chose for accessibility. I suggest you do some close reading activities.

If you choose to abandon the precision of more carefully chosen language then you can hardly complain when people read into what you say more than you intended. I acknowledged your use of the vernacular, but as I said I want to know what, precisely, your choice of words was actually supposed to mean. I don't see how you can accuse me of purposely misconstruing your intended meaning when I've repeatedly asked for you to clarify it.

I didn't. Maybe you could learn to read?

Oh now you're taking the high road I see. Perhaps you could learn to not randomly inject hostility into discussions where it's just not called for.

 

[Masada]

If you choose to abandon the precision of more carefully chosen language then you can hardly complain when people read into what you say more than you intended. I acknowledged your use of the vernacular, but as I said I want to know what, precisely, your choice of words was actually supposed to mean.

No, that wasn't the case. You asked, I answered.

Why does anyone give a crap about what we are 'supposed' to eat, or for that matter about what other people think of your diet?

Academic interest. Its a genuinely interesting question that has implications not just for history but for our understanding of human health, biology, physiology and evolution.

If that's the case then the language needs to be quite radically changed. Asking what we are 'supposed' to eat, or what we were 'designed' to eat is not a good starting point for an academic endeavour. Even when approached more appropriately, the relevance to the kinds of statements being thrown around here is rather doubtful. Why on Earth should we seek to emulate some kind of idealized pre-civilisation life, and why are people suggesting this focussing on our diets while they sit behind a desk typing on a keyboard?

Its at this point that I'll point out never once did I use 'supposed' or 'designed'. I used phrases like 'imply' and sentences like:

I'm inclined to believe that if humanity was inclined towards vegetarianism as some seem to assert then you would expect to see some sort of biological rationale for what that might be the case - i.e the areas in which humans originated should by rights have had some sort of plant derived iron substitute.

So maybe you should learn to read? At no time did I couch it in terms like your accusing me of. It seems to get worse:

I don't see how you can accuse me of purposely misconstruing your intended meaning when I've repeatedly asked for you to clarify it.

You state that you don't see how I can accuse you misconstruing my intended meaning having cited words I didn't use! Immediately afterward I would have thought you might have picked up on it. You could have at least re-read my argument in light of that revelation. But you didn't! I could be forgiven for wondering if you read what I said. Apparently not.

Oh now you're taking the high road I see. Perhaps you could learn to not randomly inject hostility into discussions where it's just not called for.

What hostility? I made a bad joke right at the start before you even arrived. I subsequently used the word 'ridiculous' to refer to the lengths required for vegetarians to source iron. I then clarified what I meant. It wasn't at anytime meant to be offensive, heck Narz picked up on what I said and agreed with me. But that's fine he read what I had to say. You apparently didn't!

 

[Ecofarm]

There should be certified vegetarian ID cards that require education/optional classes and a test. There are too many people who don't know a thing about nutrition giving us a bad name.

The next time someone's kid dies at age 5 with no teeth because his "vegan" parents ate and gave him only pasta, I won't have to hear crap about it. I can just say, hey... they weren't certified.

Mixing in random idiots with legitimate, educated and enlightened vegetarians - and characterizing the group as such - is crap.

Side note: I think it is ok for someone to call themself a vegetarian and eat fish. Heck, even chicken or other meat rarely. It's not about being some kind of 'perfect'; it's about the jouney to cruelty-free and efficient sustenance. Though I've had no sort of animal product or clothing in over 10 years.

 

[mrt144]

There should be certified vegetarian ID cards that require education/optional classes and a test. There are too many people who don't know a thing about nutrition giving us a bad name.

The next time someone's kid dies at age 5 with no teeth because his "vegan" parents ate and gave him only pasta, I won't have to hear crap about it. I can just say, hey... they weren't certified.

Mixing in random idiots with legitimate, educated and enlightened vegetarians - and characterizing the group as such - is crap.

Maybe they should wear little carrot patches on the arm of their coat.

 

[Ecofarm]

A patch? Pfft. Maybe a medal. Or free bus pass or something. Don't talk down to us.

 

[mrt144]

A patch? Pfft. Maybe a medal. Or free bus pass or something. Don't talk down to us.

No no, we want to be able to identify them in public so they'll be easier to round up once the final solution to the vegetarian question is determined.

 

[Ecofarm]

You omnivores would!

And...

now we're godwin'd

 

[Narz]

From your own study Masada.

adverse health effects from lower iron and zinc absorption have not been demonstrated with varied vegetarian diets in developed countries, and moderately lower iron stores have even been hypothesized to reduce the risk of chronic diseases.

I supplement zinc but not iron because it's easier to OD on iron.

Also, I agree with EcoFarm that severely misguided types shouldn't represent vegetarianism as a whole anymore than someone who has a 32oz steak twice a week & croaks from a heart attack at 52 should represent all omnivores.

 

[Masada]

Narz, this is what I said:

You'll find that many vegetarians actively supplement their diets with foods which provide iron. Most do go to what I class ridiculous lengths to furnish their iron requirements. I certainly did.

You'll find that while I haven't source the exact number of vegetarians who supplement their diets, some of the studies I cited above noted that up to 15% of the sample population did use supplements. It's also noted that almost all vegetarians do target foods for iron content, you've admitted to doing exactly that yourself!

 

[Narz]

I don't really target foods with iron content exactly, I like those foods anyway.

As long as I get a fairly wide variety & if I'm craving something eat it I don't worry. IIRC there was a study shown that infants (obviously with no book knowledge of nutrition) will select a balanced diet if allowed to pick their own food from a wide variety of choices. Wild animals will do the same, selecting certain plants at certain times & shunning them at others. They also will go for psychoactive plants at times, suggesting they have medicinal value (making them worth the cost of inebriation & the accompanying survival risk) but that's for another thread .

The reason I take zinc though is because modern soils are deficient in it & if you can't get it into the plant (and/or animal) you're not going to get it into you.