Israel kills 32 in air strikes, including 15 children

MobBoss said:
Two things. #1 - Your wrong. #2 - While its true that innocent bystanders get killed in a war, I wouldnt trust anything like that as "factual". Nor would I put it past a group like Hezbollah to kill a van loaded with kids to make Israel look bad, nor would I exclude the possibility that perhaps the van was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time - i.e. Israel was taking out the road and the van just happened to be there.

According to Fox News (one of the most conservative, Israel-supporting news netorks out there) the Israeli army did this, not Hezbollah. In fact, the Israeli army admitted that they did this, and the van was specifically targeted, not the road. (They did apologize.)
 
Right. Israel targeted a bus, a bus that had two families in it. Whether or not they knew children were in it is irrelevent. Israel told the people of Beirut to flee, and when they did, Israel sent them to a neverending sleep.
 
Couldnt care less about real or proclaimed intentions on this or that punctual "accident". The fact of the matter is that Israel (as anybody else) knows perfectly what is going to happen when using these sort of reprisals. I mean the so so used: "colateral damage sadly occurs at war etc etc...". So, as it was easily predictable, at the end of the day israel´s answer to the killing of 3 or 4 of his soldiers has consisted in killing several dozens of random civilians. :goodjob:
 
Truronian said:
If your gonna start moving people, it makes much more sense to move the Israelis to a Western country than it does move the Palestinians to an Arab country.

I dont think it makes more sense at all. There are way more Israelis than Palistinians there...it would be far easier to move the Palistinians.

Moving the Palestinians will just anger the Arabs and casue more tension, whereas moving the Israelis would eliminate the source of all these conflicts.

Not hardly. Israel is more than capable of defending itself against its neighbors and by extension gives much of the western world a friendly port in an area generally not pro-western. I might escalate tension in the short term, but in the long term it would eliminate the main destabilizing force in the entire region - the palistinians.

That said, I do not think moving either the Palestinians or the Israelis is a fair or clever move. The best solution in my book is a two state one, with Palestine taking the occupied territories (including East Jerusalem).

The two state solution is not viable for the simple reason the Palistinians as a people are too fractured. You cant become a nation while significant parts of your people still lob rockets at the enemy while there is supposed to be a cease fire. There just simply is no unified leadership able to take over the Palistinians and control the various factions.
 
Capulet said:
The Israelis are killing more and more people in one day than the Palestinians ever did in a week. I also think it is sickening that the rocket attacks are killing Israeli civilians cluding children, but the fact is Israel is killing many, many more civilians. They destroyed a bus carrying 20 People, 15 of them children. My God, that is sick. The IDF is a child-killing force.

I hope the world realizes who the real terrorists are.
Oh my God! Somebody's DYING in WAR! The Horror!

Get over yourself.

It's not as if the IDF is targeting a bus full of kids, and waving bye bye as they laugh maliciously while firing their rockets. These rockets aren't guided.

And I hope you realize that just because a civilian is killed, that doesn't make the killer a terrorist. Hamas and Hezzbolla are the terrorists, they are the ones who drive vans into markets and blow themsevles up, taking as many civilians as they can with them. Israel is not a terrorist-run country, and nor is the IDF a terrorist organization.
 
Cheezy the Wiz said:
Oh my God! Somebody's DYING in WAR! The Horror!
I cannot understand your logic or those who use it. Do you also hold the Holocaust with the same esteem? Because I bet you do.
 
You are treating the arabs as if they were some repressed memory of yours. They are not there so that they can be pushed further towards the bottom of a pit. And no way is it civilised to react to the kidnap/murder of three soldiers by killing over 70 civilians.

You are thinking in deadend ways of hyperbolising the difference between a cilivian that died by a cheap explosive, and one who died by a missile from an aircraft. Moreover you cannot say what the israeli pilots were thinking of when they were following the command to fire. It is not beyond imagination to note that they have indeed thought of something pretty similar to what their 'terrorist' cousins may think of just before finishing up an attack.
 
Is there any particular reason to believe that the Beirut police authorities are telling the truth about the occupants of the van?
 
Is there any particular reason to believe that the Beirut police authorities are not telling the truth about the occupants of the van?
 
How should the Lebanese Government be able to fight the terrorists within it's own country, when it's infrastructure is being bombed? Why should Libanon as a country be punished, just because it has a weak government which cannot control it? Libanon has been under foreign occupation on and off for quite some time. Under such circumstances it is no wonder that it's central government is weak. But bombing the hell out of the country it only going to make it weaker.

Israel is shooting it self in the foot here...
 
De Lorimier said:
Is there any particular reason to believe that the Beirut police authorities are not telling the truth about the occupants of the van?
Lebanon has a lot more to gain by saying "the evil Israelis bombed a civilian convoy" than "Israel bombed a van full of terrorists that our government was incapable to stop."
 
Is there any particular reason to believe that Hezzbolla attacked that check point in the first place and kidnapped the soilder while killing two others?
 
rmsharpe said:
Lebanon has a lot more to gain by saying "the evil Israelis bombed a civilian convoy" than "Israel bombed a van full of terrorists that our government was incapable to stop."
Some people in Lebanon, yes. But I doubt the Beirut police is one of them. I'm sure you'll disagree, but I seriously think the Beirut police would rather live in a calm and peaceful environment, not create more rumble by making up stories. I have way too much faith in human beings.
 
There was an interesting analysis of the situation in a Greek newspaper the other day.

The arrogance of power

By Stavros Lygeros

The developments we have witnessed in Gaza and Lebanon over the past few days merely serve to confirm, in the most dramatic fashion, that the maxim “might is right” still applies. It has become quite clear that Israel is much more than a small state armed to the teeth. Not even the US enjoys such tolerance.

The governments of the West and those who shape its public opinion are, as a rule, extremely cautious in their criticism of Tel Aviv. Evidently this is not merely due to the legacy of the Holocaust. It is also attributable to the creation of an entire industry of ideological terrorism and to the exploitation of the Holocaust for political ends, which insults the memory of the victims.

It is hardly irrelevant that the media refer to Israeli soldiers being “abducted” rather than “taken captive” - the term “abduction” suggests terrorism while soldiers are “taken captive” after armed conflicts. However, both captures, of two Israeli soldiers in Lebanon and another in Gaza earlier this month, followed armed conflict. Generally Israel describes such conflicts as terrorist acts. But this time it referred to the unjustified attack of one sovereign state against another. Tel Aviv does not regard Hezbollah as less of a terrorist organization than Hamas. It just needed a political excuse for its attack on Lebanon.

The attacks on Gaza and Lebanon were not carried out to free the three Israeli soldiers, nor because of Israel’s penchant for multiple reprisals. There is also an acute problem with rocket attacks targeting Israeli settlements. But these attacks are just the flipside of Israel’s offensives in this unbalanced war.

Israel’s mistake is not that it is exercising its right to defend itself but that it has been carried away by an arrogance of power that has extinguished any political farsightedness. Hence its attempt to impose a military solution upon a political problem.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_columns_100024_14/07/2006_72063

I agree with the writer that many news sources and the Israelis off course use misleading language by talking about "kidnappings" or "abductions". These are not some civilians the Hezbollah has captured. They are soldiers, and soldiers are never innocent. Its kind of sad how people and news agencies fall for this kind of official propaganda. My opinion is that Israel should have done nothing after Hezbollah POWed its soldiers. It should have sat down to negotiate with the Hezbollah for a prisoner exhange, like two armies in conflict ought to do(one official army other de facto).

To respond like this only shows how weak the civil society in Israel is. The government once again gave the jeans creaming nutjobs in IDF full hands to fulfill their violent fantasies of divide et impera-politics in Lebanon. Israel is effectively a military run state it seems. The recent events once again point out why soldiers should never be allowed to dictate politics. It only causes more carnage and creates more hate.
 
Azadre said:
I cannot understand your logic or those who use it. Do you also hold the Holocaust with the same esteem? Because I bet you do.
How dare you compare my statement about the facts of war to the systematic killing of a race; two things so unrelated that your link between them makes you look like a fool.

People die in war. It is sad, yes, and it would be great if they didn't, but to be surprised and desvastated because a few people died (and this is a few people, not five million) is to be naiive. Grow up.
 
Cheezy the Wiz said:
How dare you compare my statement about the facts of war to the systematic killing of a race; two things so unrelated that your link between them makes you look like a fool.
Fact about war is that it's systematic killing also.
Just look Verdun or Dresden.
Cheezy the Wiz said:
People die in war. It is sad, yes, and it would be great if they didn't, but to be surprised and desvastated because a few people died (and this is a few people, not five million) is to be naiive. Grow up.
With your logic, anyone can enter war and then when people start dying you can yell out that they are just victims of war which people should accept as they are.

I have very hard time understanding people who really are so militaristic by nature that they find the most impressive excuses for civilian casualties in conditions of war just based into the idea that "people die in war". It's like the war being the ultimate excuse or getaway car from crimes against humanity.
Maybe someone should bring the war to the backyard of these people. I guess seeing your own family killed in war might make someone see the pointlessness of those victims.

I don't see much difference between jews dying in gaschambers and japanese dying in firebombings.
Same thing.
 
Hizbollah kidnapping of 2 Iraeli soldier is a response to Israeli recent occupation of Palestinain, maybe they hope to draw away the heat from the Palestinians, i wouldn't be surprised. Israeli response to anything has always been "over the top" and it has not worked very well, where is their returned soldier? They have also killed more innocents than the Palestinians have, their stated intentions may look better, but the results of their actions are much worse than their enemies.
 
C~G said:
With your logic, anyone can enter war and then when people start dying you can yell out that they are just victims of war which people should accept as they are.

I have very hard time understanding people who really are so militaristic by nature that they find the most impressive excuses for civilian casualties in conditions of war just based into the idea that "people die in war". It's like the war being the ultimate excuse or getaway car from crimes against humanity.
Maybe someone should bring the war to the backyard of these people. I guess seeing your own family killed in war might make someone see the pointlessness of those victims.

I don't see much difference between jews dying in gaschambers and japanese dying in firebombings.
Same thing.

Yea!:goodjob:
 
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