Israel VS Palestine, who do you support?

[Lone Wolf]

Why are one-state-solution people are automatically more pro-Israeli then the two-state ones? I can easily see an Israeli who would rather give up some territory then give so many Ay-rabs citizenship.

 

[BurnEmDown]

So you are basically saying the Jews returned to Palestine because of the Haulocaust? They should have settled in Bavaria than ;-)

You really don't know what you're talking about. Here is a hint, go read those two books, and come back: "One Palestine Complete" and "The first Israelis" by Tom Segev.

You are right that he got the Holocaust part wrong, but all the rest is quite right. The Zionists have been living in Palestine since the 1880's and have been working to get their own state since then, they were promised that in the Balfour declaration of 1917, and they would most likely would have created a state even if the Holocaust didn't happen (don't forget that this also means more Jews coming to Palestine and helping form the new state).

Why are one-state-solution people are automatically more pro-Israeli then the two-state ones? I can easily see an Israeli who would rather give up some territory then give so many Ay-rabs citizenship.

I'm basically what you defined in the second sentence, although I'd rather give them territory for themselves not because I don't want anymore Arabs in Israel, I just think that this will work best for them and that this is what they want. I'd also guess that more than 50% of the Arabs who are citizens of Israel will move to the Palestinian state once it's created, despite the good living conditions in Israel.

 

[trader/warrior]

Why are one-state-solution people are automatically more pro-Israeli then the two-state ones? I can easily see an Israeli who would rather give up some territory then give so many Ay-rabs citizenship.

Really, the only side committed to a one state solution is Hamas.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I can easily see an Israeli who would rather give up some territory then give so many Ay-rabs citizenship.

As can I. Xenophobes live everywhere.

However, if a Palestinian wishes to pursue a modern, western lifestyle in Israel, doesn't breed ten younglings, and is against terrorism in general from both sides, I don't see why an Israeli would be more against giving said Palestinian Israeli citizenship anymore so than the average African pursuing the same things, immigrating to Israel. (And Israel get's alot of immigration)

 

[civver_764]

Wow, you know something is wrong with the opposition when you agree with Ayn Rand on something.

Or maybe it's a sign that something is wrong with you.

 

[Ajidica]

So I should limit myself to responding to the posts made by pro-Palestinian posters, who don't respond or acknowledge anywhere - in not one single post - and never have responded in all of these discussions [not once!] to the fact that the Palestinians are terrorists and torturers, who routinely murder their own people if they ask for compromise and peace.

Not all Palestinians. Just Hamas enjoys the murder and pillage.
Hamas remains in power in much the same way as any reactionary government. Playing on peoples hatred of enemies and doing punative strikes.
I'm not denying it, but do you have any reputable links (preferably BBC or UN) detailing how common torture for dissent is in Hamas?

Part of a discussion is to recognise the facts that the other side raises. None of the pro-Palestinian camp ever do. They want to portray Palestinians as powerless victims, and don't acknowledge the mindless terrorism, death squads or torture chambers that sustain the Palestinian Jihadist cause.

I'm pretty sure you consider me pro-palestine, but did I not make it clear my intense dislike for Hamas? Being able to understand why they do things does not mean I support them.

Because then it would become clear who the real warmongers, racists and oppressors of the Palestinian people are - it's Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah.

Sure, then why do you falsely assert:

to the fact that the Palestinians are terrorists and torturers, who routinely murder their own people if they ask for compromise and peace

?
If it is Iran, Hamas, and Hezbollah who are oppressiong Palestine, why basicaly say that Palestine is responsible for all the bad parts? Wouldn't it be more accurate of you to say "Hamas is doing the torture and so on"?

 

[bombshoo]

I support a completely integrated one-state society where both sides respect and admire one another's beliefs and culture. Palestein.

I wish that could happen. ;/

 

[Brian Shanahan]

You are right that he got the Holocaust part wrong, but all the rest is quite right. The Zionists have been living in Palestine since the 1880's and have been working to get their own state since then, they were promised that in the Balfour declaration of 1917, and they would most likely would have created a state even if the Holocaust didn't happen (don't forget that this also means more Jews coming to Palestine and helping form the new state)

You know most early Zionists were German, and they developed along German lines of thinking about nationality, i.e. racial ones. Jewish representation in Palestine was tiny up until the 1930's.

 

[Dachs]

You know most early Zionists were German, and they developed along German lines of thinking about nationality, i.e. racial ones. Jewish representation in Palestine was tiny up until the 1930's.

'German' lines of thinking about nationality were racial ones? The hell? Yes, please pay more attention to the Alldeutscher Verband and other creepy proto-Nazis than to any of the other millions of people who were grappling with the nature of identity in the Kaiserreich.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

'German' lines of thinking about nationality were racial ones? The hell? Yes, please pay more attention to the Alldeutscher Verband and other creepy proto-Nazis than to any of the other millions of people who were grappling with the nature of identity in the Kaiserreich.

Well then why was there always suspicion and alienation of Poles living in Germany up until WW2. Nationality in Germany was considered along racial lines. The Nazis just added racism (not the first ones with that), conspiracy theories and paranoia into the mix.

 

[Japanrocks12]

Warning, the following post is probably inflammatory. Don't read it if you don't like inflammatory things:

The entire thing is a hot mess. The Israeli government and Palestinian individuals have both committed needless acts of violence against each other. Honestly, at this point, if I had any power, I'd evacuate the whole region and order everyone to start over.

Since we can't do that and don't want to do it, and there's the complication that Jerusalem is a holy city for three religions, I really do support a two state solution with some sort of joint control or protection of Jerusalem. Maybe nobody should control Jerusalem and that it should be its own autonomous city-state, making this a needlessly complicated three-state solution. I honestly don't know.

What I do know is that, after reading a very informative article, Israel is making no attempt to curb its wanton violence against Palestinian civilians. We keep hearing that it's par for the course and that the human rights are necessarily sacrificed in the greater interest of the security of Israel. What's disingenuous about this justification is the fact that Israel is a fairly mighty military power and absolutely the local great power in the region. Its security is almost certainly less at risk than their government spokespeople would have us believe. Anyone can see that. Their flimsy justification for sick, wanton acts of violence suggest that they are not committed in the interest of ensuring Israel's security.

Here's the inflammatory part:

I have an idea for why the vast majority of politicians in Israel's Knesset and the old guard of Jewish-Americans in this country (USA #1) don't bat an eyelash at the mention of atrocities against Palestinians. Here it is: Israeli solidarity depends largely on comforting one another for atrocities that have been committed on Jewish populations for centuries after centuries. Emblazoned in the culture is the collective experience of suffering. This is true for several other cultures, but the worldwide Jewish population accepts this as a common link between disparate groups. A recent trend has been to channel this suffering into a selfsame suffering, into a retaliatory strike against a particular group that has been responsible for Jewish suffering in the past. In short, the reasons that violence against Palestinians is so easily justified away time and time again is that there's an understood (among everyone linked by these threads of suffering) emotional knee jerk responsibility on the part of these men and women to have zero, sometimes negative, tolerance for dissent or anything that might lead to future Jewish oppression. And so Palestinians are essentially the victims of a bizarre retribution. It's clear that the concern about Palestinians compromising Israeli state security is just a mask for this frankly disturbing rationale for finally inflicting some retributive justice.

On the other hand, Palestinian violence against Israelis is easier to understand. Muslim groups are united in a manner similar to Jewish ones; in extreme circumstances of hardship, they realize that violence is the last resort. And so when they are oppressed, they strike. Israel then recovers from the strike and strikes twofold. The Palestinians strike another twofold. What we're seeing is a circle of violence that won't end until both groups are forced to cooperate with each other against their will with severe economic and other repercussions from the rest of the community if they give in to their base desires.

 

[Dachs]

Well then why was there always suspicion and alienation of Poles living in Germany up until WW2. Nationality in Germany was considered along racial lines. The Nazis just added racism (not the first ones with that), conspiracy theories and paranoia into the mix.

If nationality was considered along 'racial lines', then what do Poles have to do with anything?

It's ridiculous to argue that the state that was busily opening up working avenues to Jews at the same time as Jews were being openly persecuted by the army in France defined nationality solely along racial lines. Can you show any connection between this supposed 'German' way of thought and what Herzl was writing at the same time?

 

[innonimatu]

I support a completely integrated one-state society where both sides respect and admire one another's beliefs and culture. Palestein.

I wish that could happen. ;/

It will. They'll eventually stumble on the right solution after trying all the wrong ones...

 

[Formaldehyde]

Here's the inflammatory part:

I have an idea for why the vast majority of politicians in Israel's Knesset and the old guard of Jewish-Americans in this country (USA #1) don't bat an eyelash at the mention of atrocities against Palestinians. Here it is: Israeli solidarity depends largely on comforting one another for atrocities that have been committed on Jewish populations for centuries after centuries. Emblazoned in the culture is the collective experience of suffering. This is true for several other cultures, but the worldwide Jewish population accepts this as a common link between disparate groups. A recent trend has been to channel this suffering into a selfsame suffering, into a retaliatory strike against a particular group that has been responsible for Jewish suffering in the past. In short, the reasons that violence against Palestinians is so easily justified away time and time again is that there's an understood (among everyone linked by these threads of suffering) emotional knee jerk responsibility on the part of these men and women to have zero, sometimes negative, tolerance for dissent or anything that might lead to future Jewish oppression. And so Palestinians are essentially the victims of a bizarre retribution. It's clear that the concern about Palestinians compromising Israeli state security is just a mask for this frankly disturbing rationale for finally inflicting some retributive justice.

On the other hand, Palestinian violence against Israelis is easier to understand. Muslim groups are united in a manner similar to Jewish ones; in extreme circumstances of hardship, they realize that violence is the last resort. And so when they are oppressed, they strike. Israel then recovers from the strike and strikes twofold. The Palestinians strike another twofold. What we're seeing is a circle of violence that won't end until both groups are forced to cooperate with each other against their will with severe economic and other repercussions from the rest of the community if they give in to their base desires.

These aren't inflammatory statements, at least to me. I've been stating essentially the same thing all along in threads about Israel / Palestine.

I think it is quite ironic that the Israelis have become essentially no different than the people they claim to hate so much - their own oppressors. And their collective excuse for doing so is indeed that very same past oppression.

 

[Tani Coyote]

So another 2 world wars is in order then?

Haahaa.

Well, they've already fought mini-world wars against eachother. Does that count?

It's funny how deep down both sides want exactly the same thing with just differences in how to get there and what exact issues are the most dire...

Not to mention each side's radicals fluff up the idea they should own it all. Which won't get anywhere since reality is on Israel's side.

I think we can all agree that any solution requires that both sides:

Sorry if "magically" came off as mocking.

No offense taken; the sad thing is both leaderships seem incapable of doing so.

Why are one-state-solution people are automatically more pro-Israeli then the two-state ones?

I imagine one-state people are "pro-Israeli" more frequently in terms of realising that Palestine's never going to be reliably independent and Israel's never going to leave.

 

[HannibalBarka]

As can I. Xenophobes live everywhere.

However, if a Palestinian wishes to pursue a modern, western lifestyle in Israel, doesn't breed ten younglings, and is against terrorism in general from both sides, I don't see why an Israeli would be more against giving said Palestinian Israeli citizenship anymore so than the average African pursuing the same things, immigrating to Israel. (And Israel get's alot of immigration)

I don't know which part of the "Jewish home land" you did not understand in Zionism.
Allowing non Jews, be them palestinians, philipino, thais or any other group to become Isralei is basically the end of Zionism. The main issue for Israel is exactly this: how to concile Zionism with democracy in its future relation with the Palestinians of the WB?
1. either it want to remain majority jewish, as was the goal of Zionism, and democratic and therefore it has to limit its territory to +- 1967 borders (otherwise in a matter of few years, Palestinians will become the majority)
2. it can remain jewish but not a democracy if it annexes the WB without garanteeing full citizenship to the Palestinians

Many people here think that the conflict will end the minute Palestinians start hugging Israeli and asking to become part of Israel, it is just plain wrong. Israel will never accept such a deal (well not in the forseeable future) because that would be the end of the very reason the State was created: namely to create a majority jewish state.

 

[Silurian]

I don't know which part of the "Jewish home land" you did not understand in Zionism.
Allowing non Jews, be them palestinians, philipino, thais or any other group to become Isralei is basically the end of Zionism. The main issue for Israel is exactly this: how to concile Zionism with democracy in its future relation with the Palestinians of the WB?
1. either it want to remain majority jewish, as was the goal of Zionism, and democratic and therefore it has to limit its territory to +- 1967 borders (otherwise in a matter of few years, Palestinians will become the majority)
2. it can remain jewish but not a democracy if it annexes the WB without garanteeing full citizenship to the Palestinians

Many people here think that the conflict will end the minute Palestinians start hugging Israeli and asking to become part of Israel, it is just plain wrong. Israel will never accept such a deal (well not in the forseeable future) because that would be the end of the very reason the State was created: namely to create a majority jewish state.

If the Palestinians did start hugging Israeli and asking to become part of Israel then Israel would be put in the same situation as South Africa in the 1960s 70s. They would face a future of increasing sanctions as South Africa did.
Maybe faced with this prospect they would turn around and give back the West Bank and recognise Palestine as a seperate.

 

[Bast]

Warning, the following post is probably inflammatory. Don't read it if you don't like inflammatory things:

The entire thing is a hot mess. The Israeli government and Palestinian individuals have both committed needless acts of violence against each other. Honestly, at this point, if I had any power, I'd evacuate the whole region and order everyone to start over.

Since we can't do that and don't want to do it, and there's the complication that Jerusalem is a holy city for three religions, I really do support a two state solution with some sort of joint control or protection of Jerusalem. Maybe nobody should control Jerusalem and that it should be its own autonomous city-state, making this a needlessly complicated three-state solution. I honestly don't know.

What I do know is that, after reading a very informative article, Israel is making no attempt to curb its wanton violence against Palestinian civilians. We keep hearing that it's par for the course and that the human rights are necessarily sacrificed in the greater interest of the security of Israel. What's disingenuous about this justification is the fact that Israel is a fairly mighty military power and absolutely the local great power in the region. Its security is almost certainly less at risk than their government spokespeople would have us believe. Anyone can see that. Their flimsy justification for sick, wanton acts of violence suggest that they are not committed in the interest of ensuring Israel's security.

Here's the inflammatory part:

I have an idea for why the vast majority of politicians in Israel's Knesset and the old guard of Jewish-Americans in this country (USA #1) don't bat an eyelash at the mention of atrocities against Palestinians. Here it is: Israeli solidarity depends largely on comforting one another for atrocities that have been committed on Jewish populations for centuries after centuries. Emblazoned in the culture is the collective experience of suffering. This is true for several other cultures, but the worldwide Jewish population accepts this as a common link between disparate groups. A recent trend has been to channel this suffering into a selfsame suffering, into a retaliatory strike against a particular group that has been responsible for Jewish suffering in the past. In short, the reasons that violence against Palestinians is so easily justified away time and time again is that there's an understood (among everyone linked by these threads of suffering) emotional knee jerk responsibility on the part of these men and women to have zero, sometimes negative, tolerance for dissent or anything that might lead to future Jewish oppression. And so Palestinians are essentially the victims of a bizarre retribution. It's clear that the concern about Palestinians compromising Israeli state security is just a mask for this frankly disturbing rationale for finally inflicting some retributive justice.

On the other hand, Palestinian violence against Israelis is easier to understand. Muslim groups are united in a manner similar to Jewish ones; in extreme circumstances of hardship, they realize that violence is the last resort. And so when they are oppressed, they strike. Israel then recovers from the strike and strikes twofold. The Palestinians strike another twofold. What we're seeing is a circle of violence that won't end until both groups are forced to cooperate with each other against their will with severe economic and other repercussions from the rest of the community if they give in to their base desires.

1. What atrocious acts of violence against Palestinians?

2. How do you even compare that to what happened in the Spanish Inquisition or the Holocaust?

3. The real reason why most people who do not have an agenda, who aren't Jewish/Arab, keep quiet and generally support Israel is that it is a liberal democracy that respects human rights and has serious terrorism issues and its security is at risk. We can see that and we can justify whatever it is doing to protect itself. For example, Israel retaliates because it keeps getting rockets launched against it by their neighbour. Yeah tell me a country which wouldn't retaliate. Somehow, the Israelis are supposed to put up with this crap.

4. ALL groups of people unite and are generally slient against their own. Which groups of Muslims came out and spoke up against 9/11 attacks? And how many and to which extent? Why should Israelis abroad or Jewish people attack their own people who are ALSO suffering?

 

[Bast]

Warning, the following post is probably inflammatory. Don't read it if you don't like inflammatory things:

The entire thing is a hot mess. The Israeli government and Palestinian individuals have both committed needless acts of violence against each other. Honestly, at this point, if I had any power, I'd evacuate the whole region and order everyone to start over.

Since we can't do that and don't want to do it, and there's the complication that Jerusalem is a holy city for three religions, I really do support a two state solution with some sort of joint control or protection of Jerusalem. Maybe nobody should control Jerusalem and that it should be its own autonomous city-state, making this a needlessly complicated three-state solution. I honestly don't know.

What I do know is that, after reading a very informative article, Israel is making no attempt to curb its wanton violence against Palestinian civilians. We keep hearing that it's par for the course and that the human rights are necessarily sacrificed in the greater interest of the security of Israel. What's disingenuous about this justification is the fact that Israel is a fairly mighty military power and absolutely the local great power in the region. Its security is almost certainly less at risk than their government spokespeople would have us believe. Anyone can see that. Their flimsy justification for sick, wanton acts of violence suggest that they are not committed in the interest of ensuring Israel's security.

Here's the inflammatory part:

I have an idea for why the vast majority of politicians in Israel's Knesset and the old guard of Jewish-Americans in this country (USA #1) don't bat an eyelash at the mention of atrocities against Palestinians. Here it is: Israeli solidarity depends largely on comforting one another for atrocities that have been committed on Jewish populations for centuries after centuries. Emblazoned in the culture is the collective experience of suffering. This is true for several other cultures, but the worldwide Jewish population accepts this as a common link between disparate groups. A recent trend has been to channel this suffering into a selfsame suffering, into a retaliatory strike against a particular group that has been responsible for Jewish suffering in the past. In short, the reasons that violence against Palestinians is so easily justified away time and time again is that there's an understood (among everyone linked by these threads of suffering) emotional knee jerk responsibility on the part of these men and women to have zero, sometimes negative, tolerance for dissent or anything that might lead to future Jewish oppression. And so Palestinians are essentially the victims of a bizarre retribution. It's clear that the concern about Palestinians compromising Israeli state security is just a mask for this frankly disturbing rationale for finally inflicting some retributive justice.

On the other hand, Palestinian violence against Israelis is easier to understand. Muslim groups are united in a manner similar to Jewish ones; in extreme circumstances of hardship, they realize that violence is the last resort. And so when they are oppressed, they strike. Israel then recovers from the strike and strikes twofold. The Palestinians strike another twofold. What we're seeing is a circle of violence that won't end until both groups are forced to cooperate with each other against their will with severe economic and other repercussions from the rest of the community if they give in to their base desires.

1. What atrocious acts of violence against Palestinians?

2. How do you even compare that to what happened in the Spanish Inquisition or the Holocaust?

3. The real reason why most people who do not have an agenda, who aren't Jewish/Arab, keep quiet and generally support Israel is that it is a liberal democracy that respects human rights and has serious terrorism issues and its security is at risk. We can see that and we can justify whatever it is doing to protect itself. For example, Israel retaliates because it keeps getting rockets launched against it by their neighbour. Yeah tell me a country which wouldn't retaliate. Somehow, the Israelis are supposed to put up with this crap.

4. ALL groups of people unite and are generally slient against their own. Which groups of Muslims came out and spoke up against 9/11 attacks? And how many and to which extent? Why should Israelis abroad or Jewish people attack their own people who are ALSO suffering?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The real reason why most people who do not have an agenda, who aren't Jewish/Arab, keep quiet and generally support Israel is that it is a liberal democracy that respects human rights and has serious terrorism issues and its security is at risk. We can see that and we can justify whatever it is doing to protect itself. For example, Israel retaliates because it keeps getting rockets launched against it by their neighbour. Yeah tell me a country which wouldn't retaliate. Somehow, the Israelis are supposed to put up with this crap.

What is your take for instance on the Settlements on the Westbank, based on God-given rights, dislocating the population who are unfortunate enough to already be there?