Israeli tanks in Lebanon

[Bozo Erectus]

Yes and this is sentiment is why they fight. SO we have these option IMO kill them all or change the sentiments while killing those who attack us.

Gladi, I dont know. Is it easier to kill them or to change their way of seeing things?

Would they rather die, and kill us in the process, rather than betray their beliefs and traditions?

I think so, and I think I understand their motivation.

 

[Lotus49]

Yes and this is sentiment is why they fight. SO we have these option IMO kill them all or change the sentiments while killing those who attack us.

As morbid as is sounds, I think it would be easier and more realistic to kill them all, than to change the sentiments.

The best, most preferred, and ideal option; would be to have nothing to do with them at all, and be far away, out-of-sight, out-of-mind from their conflict(s). Unfortunately, it's far too late for that - it's not possible at this point.

Alternatively, the next best option is to totally dominate them with overwhelming force.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

As morbid as is sounds, I think it would be easier and more realistic to kill them all, than to change the sentiments.

Kill them all? Its true. Humanity has learned nothing, and most likely, never will.

 

[Gladi]

Gladi, I dont know. Is it easier to kill them or to change their way of seeing things?

Would they rather die, and kill us in the process, rather than betray their beliefs and traditions?

I think so, and I think I understand their motivation.

Well I like to think that there are things I would die defending too.

But do they have to betray themselves and became less than human?

What about Israeli Arabs or any other Arabs that favour peaceful co-existence with Israel? Are they vile traitors? (of course yes to radicals...)

 

[Lotus49]

Kill them all? Its true. Humanity has learned nothing, and most likely, never will.

Of course I'm not advocating any such thing; I just think it's important to maintain a realistic perspective - no matter how grim it may be.

I don't think anyone seriously believes a long-term, peaceful and tranquil solution is possible at this point. The best we can hope for is a standoff, with minimal violence. Unfortunately, as long as a country is fortified like it's at war, people on the other side of the defenses naturally tend to treat it as such.

But for this particular situation -Israel/Palestine- it would be hard to conceive a more 'perfect conflict', even if you wanted to.

 

[Lotus49]

Well I like to think that there are things I would die defending too.

But do they have to betray themselves and became less than human?

What about Israeli Arabs or any other Arabs that favour peaceful co-existence with Israel? Are they vile traitors? (of course yes to radicals...)

You seem pretty civilized - so, try to imagine the U.N. passes a resolution saying Germany is going to re-annex all of the Czech Republic, a la Das III. Reich in 1938. Suddenly your land, your people are now a part of Germany. How does this make you feel? Maybe you're not a "radical Czech", but still, you're going to hate this, every day, all day long. Even if you don't outwardly indicate as much.

And, Czechs and Germans are much more similar than the long-time historical arch rivals we have in Israel/Palestine. Arch rivals in practically every possible way, going back thousands of years. The circumstances are much more extreme, as are the people. But, just try to imagine that scenario, as a very small taste.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well I like to think that there are things I would die defending too.

You like to think it. As we all do. How many people would you kill for what you believe? Or for the way of life you were raised in? Youd kill many, right? How about the families of those who would destroy you, and your families? Would you kill them? Would you kil them if they were killing your family?

But do they have to betray themselves and became less than human?

Gladi, thats a very good question. Are they becoming lesss than human, or being extremely human, by killing those which are different? Both impulses are human, but which impulse is most likely to survive into the future?

What about Israeli Arabs or any other Arabs that favour peaceful co-existence with Israel? Are they vile traitors? (of course yes to radicals...)

To radicals, yes, they are traitors. For good reason. The radicals are giving all they have for what they believe in, and the appeasers arent. The appeasers value comfort more than they value justice.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Of course I'm not advocating any such thing; I just think it's important to maintain a realistic perspective - no matter how grim it may be.

I don't think anyone seriously believes a long-term, peaceful and tranquil solution is possible at this point. The best we can hope for is a standoff, with minimal violence. Unfortunately, as long as a country is fortified like it's at war, people on the other side of the defenses naturally tend to treat it as such.

But for this particular situation -Israel/Palestine- it would be hard to conceive a more 'perfect conflict', even if you wanted to.

Youre spinning and escaping. Tell me what you think Israel should do, irespective of world opinin.

 

[Gladi]

You like to think it. As we all do. How many people would you kill for what you believe? Or for the way of life you were raised in? Youd kill many, right? How about the families of those who would destroy you, and your families? Would you kill them? Would you kil them if they were killing your family?

For what I believe, none, my faith is not dogmatic but reasoning. If they are aganist that they can hardly be humans. I am my family, my family is me. I have stand by my other parts through hurtfull times but never deadly so I cannot say. I like to think that I would kill untill peacefull solution; some compromise; would be found, but I fear I would not be able to stop. I already was little way from throttling somebody to death (I mean I was throttling them and they were blue, but I was able to stop myself- at those times )

Gladi, thats a very good question. Are they becoming lesss than human, or being extremely human, by killing those which are different? Both impulses are human, but which impulse is most likely to survive into the future?

I prefer to marvel at diversity of God's creation. At some though from safe distance.

To radicals, yes, they are traitors. For good reason. The radicals are giving all they have for what they believe in, and the appeasers arent. The appeasers value comfort more than they value justice.

Thats is the radical view. But how do the moderates view them? Did Jordanians hate king Hussein because he made peace with Isael?

 

[Lotus49]

Youre spinning and escaping. Tell me what you think Israel should do, irespective of world opinin.

Ah, you're very observant of various postings around here. It's not easy for me to say, and obviously it was even more difficult for the Hebrews to DO, but had they done what they were instructed to do, rather than settle for merely forming a counter culture when they arrived in Canaan, they wouldn't be having this problem today.

Hey, that's what's written, and what's preached - on both the Jewish and Christian sides. What else can I say. And thousands of years later, seeing where we are now, and how we got here... you have to wonder.

Some orders are tough to carry out. But if you don't have faith in your leadership, and execute (no pun intended) the orders accordingly, then there will be consequences - for the order(s) were given for a reason, even if you didn't understand them completely at the time.

I served in the military (USMC), and we were always told 'never ask why'... don't even let the thought enter your mind. Follow orders without hesitation, and without question. -For your leader, knows better than you do.

...but, I'm sure all this seems foreign to a modern society (especially past few generations) that are trained to challenge/question everything, and always be cynical. And where has it gotten them? Lost.

 

[mango20022002]

No matter how many Hezbollah Israel kills, I fear the conflict will continue until the root-causes are sorted out. That means a return to a Peace Process with negotiations on the issues of Israel's final borders, a Palestinian state, the Golan Heights and the Sheeba Farms. Israel needs to stop the "there is no partner on the other side" excuse which is sadly a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Spain can talk to ETA, Britain to the IRA, then I fail to see why Israel can't talk to its enemies. Israel is its own worst enemy because its intransigence is the real threat to its security.

 

[Sidhe]

Oh jeez .... go read the resolution and get back with us. It never used the words "cease fire"

Please before you accuse the US of this or that, know what you are talking about I think that is all any country would ask. The resolution was unbalanced, as it made far more demands on Israel than Hizboallah, it was drafted by an Arab State what are the odds? You might recall Hizboallah started it all. However in a very rare move the Arab League did condemn Hizboallah for their action against Israel and called for the return of their captives, you see how well they listen.

questions how many civillians have to die before Israel loses all credibility in this situation? for you any way, how much innocent death do you want to see? Does it matter to you in the least, or is it acceptable. War crimes as a UN spokesman described it today, he was disgusted by the damage, he was there, you can remove yourself by thousands of miles, but your still human right?

All I can say is it must be wonderfull to live in a world where Israel is always right, despite them failing to obey over a hundred resolutions by the UN, back in the old days when the US wasn't so blindly devoted to Israel that they even agreed with some of the resoltuions, now all you get form the US is that it's a one sided deal and that there is no injustice but that performed on the Isralies, boo friggin who cry me a river, I see just as many injustice elsewhere in the Middle East now, and bombing civillians with callous regard for the consequences to innocents is really starting to tell on my sympathy levels.

Why are there so few Americans willing to question their government or the Israelis on these threads I wonder? Are you all so brainwashed by your media that you believe that the only thing to come out of Palestine or the Lebanon or Syria is a fanatic with a bomb strapped to his chest, because talking on these middle East threads if there are any moderate Americans they certainly like to keep quiet, all you generally get is people saying our government is hunky dorey, everything Israel does is right and the enemy is terrorism!!! The enemy is war, your just too blinkered to see it. Cmon it can't just be the Republican drones that have the largest and sometimes seemingly only voice? Can it? Frankly the Republican neo con drone, let's make the middle East one big Israeli country is starting to get tired, get some perspective please no one expects anyone to sit on the fence like me, but the level of blind belief here is extroardinary. You guys need prodding badly to wake up, deprogram yourself. The middle East needs peace, what it deosn't need is encouragement to continue with an endless cycle of tit for tat violence by a country who delights in perpetrating and encouraging wars that generally lead nowhere except to piles of bodies.

 

[shadow2k]

@Sidhe

There was no resolution at the UN to vote on a ceasefire. The US didn't veto anything of the sort, please stop spreading that nonsense.

The UN has had troops in Lebanon since roughly...82ish. There are over 2,000 "peace keeping" troops along the border, all on the Lebanon side of the border. They have done nothing.

A UN force being put there is redundant. There's been one for two and a half decades now. That's why they are discussing using NATO instead.

 

[Sidhe]

@Sidhe

There was no resolution at the UN to vote on a ceasefire. The US didn't veto anything of the sort, please stop spreading that nonsense.

The UN has had troops in Lebanon since roughly...82ish. There are over 2,000 "peace keeping" troops along the border, all on the Lebanon side of the border. They have done nothing.

A UN force being put there is redundant. There's been one for two and a half decades now. That's why they are discussing using NATO instead.

I never said that in my last post? So why are you maintaining that I keep saying it? And When did I say anything about the UN going in like that, all I'm talking about is them being heeded for a change, I think like you a proper force is needed but the UN could still have a place in the area as a monitoring force maybe? Not necessarily a peace keeping one as UN forces tend to be, there not going to be efffective here? I tell you what you stop reading stuff into my posts and I'll stop misrepresenting the US too? deal? Can you put up all the resolutions that the US vetoed so we can see just what they didn't want to happen then? Let's clarify this, I haven't found exactly what was mooted by the UN yet, it's almost as if it's top secret.

 

[shadow2k]

The middle East needs peace, what it deosn't need is encouragement to continue with an endless cycle of tit for tat violence by a country who delights in perpetrating and encouraging wars that generally lead nowhere except to piles of bodies.

And we all saw where the peace process got us as well, didn't we? Numerous times. Either way, civilians were dying.

Really, I don't know what you expect. You want peace, that's great. But until BOTH sides want peace, that can't happen.

Answer two questions for me...

If Hezbollah disarms, what happens?
If Israel disarms, what happens?

 

[Esox]

The middle East needs peace, what it deosn't need is encouragement to continue with an endless cycle of tit for tat violence by a country who delights in perpetrating and encouraging wars that generally lead nowhere except to piles of bodies.

That sentence is true. However, it certainly does not apply to any single country.

 

[shadow2k]

UN isn't a military force,they could only move in under ceasefire circumstances, they are peace keepers not antagonists. They did vote for a cease fire but the US vetoed it unfortunately.
EDIT: Only the Israelis can do it now, and I'm not that optimistic it will be easy or achieved in the long term.

Again indeed, and the UN will pass resolutions that the US will veto, and the region will become a bone of contention for fundemetalists, let's hope not eh. Annexing lands is not really the way to go. Am I the only one that sees annexation as wrong? It's a primary the reason all this hostility exists; Israel needs a clear idea of what is acceptable, the US wont allow it, and it'll result in more political wrangling and more fracturing of any chance of a peace process.Drastic solution? Last resort, that we can at least agree on, let impartials do the thinking.

This is what I was referring to.

 

[Sidhe]

And we all saw where the peace process got us as well, didn't we? Numerous times. Either way, civilians were dying.

Really, I don't know what you expect. You want peace, that's great. But until BOTH sides want peace, that can't happen.

Answer two questions for me...

If Hezbollah disarms, what happens?
If Israel disarms, what happens?

When has there ever been sustained peace? Israel needs to go back to the pre 67 borders, but this has never been offered seriously, until it is then it seems there can be no peace.

 

[Sidhe]

That sentence is true. However, it certainly does not apply to any single country.

That's true, I was in prod the US mode, so I apply it equally to anyone with an indirect role in the matter, Iran, syria, UK, US that'll clear stuff up. It's all a big game to some people, but then there not the ones facing rocket attacks, high explosive shells, or bombing. If they were there no doubt they'd be frightened, wiser and a lot less insistent on war no doubt.

Oh and what were the resolutions the US vetoed, if anyone can find them I believe it would be important to establish the truth?

 

[shadow2k]

And When did I say anything about the UN going in like that, all I'm talking about is them being heeded for a change, I think like you a proper force is needed but the UN could still have a place in the area as a monitoring force maybe? Not necessarily a peace keeping one as UN forces tend to be, there not going to be efffective here? I tell you what you stop reading stuff into my posts and I'll stop misrepresenting the US too? deal? Can you put up all the resolutions that the US vetoed so we can see just what they didn't want to happen then? Let's clarify this, I haven't found exactly what was mooted by the UN yet, it's almost as if it's top secret.

The UN already has troops there. I had the date wrong, they've been there since '78. There long standing mission has been to keep things from escalating, broker ceasefires, etc... They have not been able to do anything...not this time, not last time, etc... The region needs someone to disarm Hezbollah. Currently, the Israel army is the only one willing to do the deed. Unfortunately, many disagree with their tactics. But nobody else is willing to do it, so that's what we're left with.

Troops such as the UN and NATO will not disarm Hezbollah.

The UN lists their resolutions and meetings on their website. That link is to the Security Council stuff.

Some reporters have said that the US vetoed a ceasefire agreement as well, and they've had to be corrected many times. It simply didn't happen. What you saw/heard/read was that the US doesn't think a ceasefire at this time would be the proper way to go. They are in the minority. However, they didn't block anything from happening. No formal vote on a ceasefire has taken place. There need to be terms brought to the table before that can happen, and what the US is against is a return to the status quo.