Israeli tanks in Lebanon

[Mr. Dictator]

but if israel is building their schools i dont think they would keep bombing them. i know what your saying though. and i agree they're never gonna love em. but we could probably cut the attacks down.

 

[Sidhe]

Clearing an area means literally that. Car bombs and suicide bombers need to swim in the sea of the people to be effective; Israel does not need the land, nor the people, but rather a buffer zone. This is combined with killing or neutralizing every known member of Hezbollah that can be, removing their propaganda mechanisms from circulation, and then seeing who to talk with.

Falling into the root causes fox trap can be very dangerous, particularly in regards to Hezbollah. Their original casus belli is now confined to the Shabaa Farms, and they are on the wrong side of the international opinion there. They have extended their calls to the 'liberation' of Jerusalem, and the concomitant destruction of the Jewish State. These are not starting grounds for negotiation.

The root cause is that 60 years afterwards, it is still convenient for the surrounding Arab states to have the Palestinians as a stalking horse in refugee camps; their victimhood makes a good distraction and rallying cry. State sponsored terror is an act of war, and all of the Arab states have made ample use of it. Some, Egypt and Jordan, have accepted reality.

Others still have to, such as the then Saudi Crown Prince's offer to recognize Israel in return for a number of conditions that amounted to the kitchen sink. Such magnanimous diplomacy!

One can address the root causes of the issue at the same time as taking a hard line on terror and war on the nation.

Israel's policy is that they will take all steps for there to be no more Masadas.

Sorry missed this: nice use of Jewish history, Masada? Could you expand on ancient history? Not sure of the relevance but anyway. Taking a hard line on anything is what lead to this in the first place, the only way IMHO is to take a moderate line of compromise, because hard line simply breeds hate, and leads to hardline counter measures.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

1.) Building schools would not work. Absent any further measures, they would end up being employed for the same purposes schoolhouses have been in the area.

2.) The UN can posture, but if Israel feels they need to do it, they will. And if a time comes when they no longer need it, there is the example of Sinai - the Egyptians made peace first, recognised Israel, and only afterwards were given the carrot, even though it was very painful to Israeli society.

Unilateral withdrawal has been shown not to be the optimum solution, and the results of the UNFIL are now being seen. Israel cannot afford to wager its security on the goodwill of its neighbours, when this is markedly absent.

Annexation, if it comes to it, works. Taking the Golan secured the strategic heights overlooking most of Northern Israel. With the physical dimensions of such a state, certain measures, however unpalatable, have to be considered for defensive depth.

Annexation, though, is not the only solution. There are proportional steps between it and the status quo.

 

[Gladi]

Sorry missed this: nice use of Jewish history, Masada? Could you expand on ancient history? Not sure of the relevance but anyway.

Last center of resistance in Judean-Roman War of 66-67. 960 refugees defended themselves untill Romans build new hill next to fort from which they could attack it. Eleazar Ben Jaeer the jewish commander then ordered mass suicide rather then to fall into Roman hands. Only two women and their five children who hid in a cave survived.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Sorry missed this: nice use of Jewish history, Masada? Could you expand on ancient history? Not sure of the relevance but anyway. Taking a hard line on anything is what lead to this in the first place, the only way IMHO is to take a moderate line of compromise, because hard line simply breeds hate, and leads to hardline counter measures.

They will not give up, nor get in a situation where their backs are to the wall. It weighs strongly on the Israeli psyche, and is used as a refrain in political texts. That is where weakness got them, and it resonates strongly when combined with 20th century events.

Modern Israel is a Masada, from which there can be

There are not the moderate voices and influential parties on the other side. One cannot compromise with someone who wishes to destroy you - "ok, just half dead. No? Two thirds?" Compromise is the language of the devil unless there is a genuine partner on the other side. Nasrallah, Hamas, IJ, Martyr's Brigade - they are not genuine partners.

Taking a hard line on anything is bad !? There are times when the only answer is to gird one's loins, set the jaw and go forth.

Negotiation is only successful from a position of strength.

 

[Sidhe]

Isarael have had a postion of strength with Palestine since 1968, do they really need to have such a colossal advantage to negotiate peace, or like a bulldog with it's nuts trapped in a door are they merely attacking out of pain and frustration. End the pain end the frustration by moderation and mediation, then there unassailable postion will seem more like reason. Girding loins is fine, but making enemies in the process is really not wise, we need to stop allowing them free reign, stop the veto culture, stop letting them have such easy means to ends, and hope and pray that in 40 years they turn back to the peace loving nation they have been and we know they can be. Give peace a chance, it's never been tried, don't knock it until you've tried it.

 

[Simon Darkshade]

There was no Palestine to negotiate with in 1968. There was the War of Attrition, a trifling matter no doubt.

Moderation and mediation has been tried - it worked with Egypt and Jordan; it has not with the others. Peace has been tried - Oslo et al, 2000 withdrawal from Southern Lebanon.

In this world, not everyone is going to love you. Some will hate you regardless. Some of those will be blood enemies. With them, there is no holding back, nor point of it.

Sounding like a broken John Lennon record player does not have any relation to the conflict.

What have the Arabs offered? Furthermore, the point still stands of why are people in refugee camps for decades on end? Far worse population disruptions and movements occured in Europe and India, yet everyone involved there seems to have coped. Whose purpose do images of a wretched populace serve?

 

[Leatherneck]

They did vote for a cease fire but the US vetoed it unfortunately.

Oh jeez .... go read the resolution and get back with us. It never used the words "cease fire"

Please before you accuse the US of this or that, know what you are talking about I think that is all any country would ask. The resolution was unbalanced, as it made far more demands on Israel than Hizboallah, it was drafted by an Arab State what are the odds? You might recall Hizboallah started it all. However in a very rare move the Arab League did condemn Hizboallah for their action against Israel and called for the return of their captives, you see how well they listen.

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: Thread purged. In future, please ignore the trolls.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Bozo Erectus]

T

In this world, not everyone is going to love you. Some will hate you regardless. Some of those will be blood enemies. With them, there is no holding back, nor point of it.

Truth is truth, I cant help but agree.

Sounding like a broken John Lennon record player does not have any relation to the conflict.

Or to any conflict.

What have the Arabs offered? Furthermore, the point still stands of why are people in refugee camps for decades on end? Far worse population disruptions and movements occured in Europe and India, yet everyone involved there seems to have coped. Whose purpose do images of a wretched populace serve?

If we wise up and make oursleves energy independent, we'll be better off, and so will our enemies. They hate selling us our fuel even more than we hate buying it from them.

 

[Lotus49]

Over the next month, the IDF will be thoroughly dismantling 'the Hez', south of the river. It'll be interesting to see if Syria and Iran just watch it happen, and do nothing. All things considered, the 'Zionism' is going full force around them, from their point of view. But, they're probably just going to bide their time, and develop the in Iran, and try to recover their regional hegemony at a later date. Russia no doubt, will be a major enabler for this to happen, as their interest in balance of power Vs. the West is also at stake.

But, I predict there will ultimately be war with Iran, within the next several years over that issue. Probably not much of a ground war, though.

All in all, long-term, strategically... we've got them right where we want them. The deck is stacked in our favor. There maybe a few bumps in the road (like $100+ oil), but nothing we can't handle for a period of time.

They just can't win. Why can't they realize that...

 

[Gladi]

They just can't win. Why can't they realize that...

Myabe this is problem? That because the way they see it whatever happens they will be losers? (though it is not realistic)

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Myabe this is problem? That because the way they see it whatever happens they will be losers? (though it is not realistic)

They arent hoping to win in the Western sense.

 

[Lotus49]

Myabe this is problem? That because the way they see it whatever happens they will be losers? (though it is not realistic)

Well Israel is here to stay, and they are backed by the U.S. So, what exactly are they hoping to accomplish by fighting, resisting and defying, in all seriousness? It's pretty silly. A total lack of comprehension as to the amount of power they are trying to push against.

You'd think they could find something better and more constructive to do with their time.

 

[Gladi]

Well Israel is here to stay, and they are backed by the U.S. So, what exactly are they hoping to accomplish by fighting, resisting and defying, in all seriousness? It's pretty silly. A total lack of comprehension as to the amount of power they are trying to push against.

You'd think they could find something better and more constructive to do with their time.

But those are EEEvil Jews! They will steal our land and dishonour our women!! It is written in Protocols of Elders of Zion!!!

/sarcasm

 

[Gladi]

They arent hoping to win in the Western sense.

So what kind? Die fighting? Where did they get this idea?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

But those are EEEvil Jews! They will steal our land and dishonour our women!! It is written in Protocols of Elders of Zion!!!

/sarcasm

regardless whether you add a "/sarcasm]" you are accurately reflecting the sentiments of the average people in the Muslim world.

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

The Israeli government will fail in its efforts to aggress against the people of Lebanon. Aggression and occupations always fail, and it is only a matter of time before not only the Lebanese people, but also the Israeli people and the Palestinean people throw themselves free of the fascist yoke of the current American puppet government that occupies Jerusalem. Only then will peace be achieved, and peace is something all peoples inherently love and yearn for.

But not at the expense of liberty.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

So what kind? Die fighting? Where did they get this idea?

They got it from an something which has begun to be alien to most Western peoples, which is the notion that there are some principles which are worth dying for. With the exception of the USA, the West today is at a severe disadvantage, because it no longer has any beliefs worth fighting for.

 

[Gladi]

regardless whether you add a "/sarcasm]" you are accurately reflecting the sentiments of the average people in the Muslim world.

Yes and this is sentiment is why they fight. SO we have these option IMO kill them all or change the sentiments while killing those who attack us.