Issues: Legion of D'tesh

[ScrubbyTheKid]

First things first: Hi @all and congratulations to a real improvement on an already great mod.

I think the Legion has several issues.

1. I dont think Kelp/Kelp forrest should be able to host a Pyre.
2. I think the later Alchemistic units (Arquebusier, Cannon) should be barred for them, mainly because they are insanly strong in lategame secondly because i don't think it fits their Necromantic civ to dabble to much in alchemy (like the vamps).
3. The Binding Stones building seems a little insane: the no effect is mindblowingly strong for a building that early not to mention that when you get the Catacomb Libralus you get one for free in every city.
4. Is it possible to lock several civics for civs? I somehow cant see a civilisation that kindof solely depends on slaves and undead adopt a Republic for example.. or Freedom

 

[Valkrionn]

1. I'm not sure about that. I like the effect, but it potentially makes coastal starts too strong.
2. Doubtful that I would do that. They already lack incentive to go down those lines, given the buffs other unitcombats receive.
3. It is necessary. They do not gain population in anything approaching a normal way, and have a population cap on their cities. Now, if this was a non-fallow civ I would agree, but for fallow, lack of a happy cap does not remove all pop limitations.
4. Possible, but won't happen. It may seem odd if you see it, but we'd rather leave different possibilities open.

 

[Torugu]

1. I think you should leave their ability to build pyres on naval tiles, but reduce its yields dramatically and make it unable to spawn ashes.

That being said, you should reduce the yields of all their unique improvements dramatically so I can finally play my second favourite civ (after the scions) again without having to feel like I'm stealing lollies from small children.

 

[ScrubbyTheKid]

3. Kinda true but when the effect in it self is fine i think its too early and connected to the wrong building because of the effect of libralus...
Their strength already lies in the the arcane section so they get kindof everything they need there... they dont need to research most ressi techs because they cant use it and will replace it with a pyre anyways.. and they cant bother with religions so whats left is hunting for thanny and then arcane and the research techs.. because nothing else is needed... maybe move it to a building further down the road... or maybe even better to one in another research path so they wont get rolling so early... its no problem to get 3 cities with 30 inhabitants rather fast...

and to 1. i usually amass so much ashes with these tiles i get a slave from nearly every fight.

@Torugu im right with you on this... when you play them correctly the D'tesh can have cities that will dwarf the ones of the kuriotate in every aspect and they will have more of them...

 

[Torugu]

3. They have a hard cap for their city size. Besides I think it would be strange for them to have any Unhappiness at all. I've said it before and I'll say it again until either the D'Tesh are nerfed or I make Valk rage (an achievement in and of itself): The problem with the Legion is not that their units are to strong or that their cities are to big, it's that every D'Tesh population point can harvest ~2.5 times the yields of a non-D'Tesh citizen.

 

[ScrubbyTheKid]

well... i think the cap was 32 wasnt it? (all +cap buildings built and 44 for the Spire).. even if their yield wasnt higher im not sure how many civs can push a city to 32 inhabitants ... and the other civs need to put some of them on food ressources or healers ... and you need a lot of resources to get there (health and happy) and/or buildings... for all of which you will pay maintenance... all things the D'tesh don't have to bother with..
and the D'tesh will find a lot of resscources because every improvement of them can find some...
next thing you can get these monster cities everywhere deserts, ice, hills, mountains... nothing matters and in the end it will result in a high yield field for the d'tesh (except the montains.. but usually there arent that many and if i really have a city with many mountains in a 3 field radius i will make a specialist city)
All those advantages add up to what you get when picking D'tesh.

 

[Valkrionn]

I am not against nerfing their yields, believe it or not. It may well be necessary. I am, however, against changing when they get to ignore unhappiness.

 

[ScrubbyTheKid]

lol so we have kinda no argument here... I'm not against that neither... I think putting that building to a later.. or maybe not even a later but just a different tech so they have to research another path as well.. maybe on construction or sth... to delay it a little... but in the end I dont really care how the change takes place (later no unhappyness buildings, lower yield, sth else) when they end up balanced in the end..

 

[Torugu]

I am not against nerfing their yields, believe it or not. It may well be necessary. I am, however, against changing when they get to ignore unhappiness.

But... but... What am I supposed to complain about now?

 

[Valkrionn]

But... but... What am I supposed to complain about now?

So, there was some discussion about D'teshi improvement yields being OP... I agree, they were. At least, the Crypt and Pyres. They gained both hammers and commerce with Necromancy and Arcane Lore (techs you want to push anyway), and the D'tesh gained unique bonuses for them. This has been changed.

1. Dtesh
   • Civilization
     • All civ-specific bonuses to improvements (Crypt, Pyre, Aquatic Pyre) removed. Unneeded, and overpowered.
   • Improvements
     • Aquatic Pyre Changes
       • No longer hidden, and has a separate name from standard pyre
       • Does not provide Ash, still removes all features/resources from it's tile (and says so clearly)
       • +3 Commerce (Commerce gain of the normal Pyre from Ash)
       • +1 Commerce from Necromancy (down from +1 Hammers, +1 Commerce)
       • +1 Hammers from Arcane Lore (down from +1 Hammers, +1 Commerce)
     • Pyre Changes
       • +1 Commerce from Necromancy (down from +1 Hammers, +1 Commerce)
       • +1 Hammers from Arcane Lore (down from +1 Hammers, +1 Commerce)
     • Catacombs
       • +1 Commerce from Necromancy (down from +1 Hammers, +1 Commerce)
       • +1 Hammers from Arcane Lore (down from +1 Hammers, +1 Commerce)
     • Defiled Catacombs
       • No longer has any chance to discover resources; Shouldn't have in the first place.
     • Other D'teshi Improvements
       • Untouched. Yields matched those of the default improvements, and Wasteland is only +1 Hammers +1 Commerce; Plains, with commerce rather than food. The bulk of the yield issues were caused by civ-specific bonuses, and high scaling along an already powerful tech line.
   
   
2. Misc
   • Pedia
     • Lair filter now correctly checks all four spawn tags, so all lairs show up
     • New Civilization-Specific filter; Does exactly what it sounds like
     • Civilization requirements on improvement pages will now link to the civ
   • Improvements
     • Mine no longer discovers Obsidian. This is meant to be event only.
     • Pirate Improvements now require Lanun civilization; Only cosmetic, to pull them up in the new filter
     • Same goes for the D'teshi improvements

 

[Swinkscalibur]

I believe that I was part of the reason the d'tesh can work water tiles was my suggestion. However I balanced it by giving it significant research cost down the water tree (an otherwise mostly useless line). This modifies the strength of the coastal starts. The other option that might mitigate it is that the building unit be sacrificed.

 

[Valkrionn]

Putting it down the water tree IMO is too harsh, as it comes active extremely late... By which point you may as well not have it.

In any case, I'm fairly satisfied with it now.

 

[Ghostslayer]

Production is one problem with D'Tesh. But another one is the number of cities. There is a cap on the number of vessels they can produce, but, generally, with all the cities they that raze, they don't need to produce many vessels to be able to create tens of cities....

This is quite unbalanced IMO as:
- they are sprawling and other sprawling civs have a cap on their number of cities (or severe food constraints like the Jotnars)
- with the mausoleum, they have the most powerful culture spreading forts of the game and do not really need cities to get access to resources.
- and they already have the most powerful economy in the game

I think, they should:
- systematically raze any city they conquer. This will produce slaves and a vessel, but...
- there is a hard cap on the number of cities they can build (say 4 or even 3 on a normal game)

And if they want to access resources by a city that they just destroyed, they can use their new slaves to build a mausoleum.

The only problem with that is that presently you are not allowed to build a fort if there is another culture control on the terrain. I think this restriction is quite annoying and not only for D'Tesh. If you just raze a barb city close to a barb lair that you have destroyed, there is no way to build anything, because of the culture control that remain. Culture control should desappear as soon as the culture producing entity is destroyed, IMO.

 

[Jaded_Feriluce]

I have a question about the D'tesh as well. I was playing a game with them a few days ago and by mistake built the Mercurian Gate and summoned Basium into the world. Are they susposed to be able to do that? It just seemed kinda of weird having an army of angels backing up the legions of the dead. lol also since it was a mistake on my part in the first place they were summoned right in the middle of my kingdom.... so all that lovely dead land that took a million turns to make was ruined by the new capitol.

 

[odalrick]

Yep, you're supposed to be able to summon Basium.

Living, dead, good, evil... as long as you're not a demon worshiper you're a-ok i Basium's book.

 

[Morkonan]

I think, they should:
- systematically raze any city they conquer. This will produce slaves and a vessel, but...
- there is a hard cap on the number of cities they can build (say 4 or even 3 on a normal game)

IIRC, in the game I'm currently playing Rife Beta Rev 207, D'tesh can create two vessels. However, that's only as long as they don't have five cities or more. (Maybe 3?) As soon as they reach a certain point (forget what it is) they can no longer create vessels or get settlers.

On their own, they can only create three cities, period. But, they lose even that ability if they start conquering and holding other cities.

It can be a pretty hazardous thing. If, for instance, they don't have a port city, they'll never be able to get to another continent to finish conquering the world. (Unless they get lucky with portals/Lacuna and get some strong units there to conquer a city to raise a Gate.) They "might" be able to do it with water-walking Binders, but they'd have to get the mana first AND get the exp to promote the unit, since their arcane units don't automatically get exp aside from the random "build" exp hits.

 

[Valkrionn]

They can build a total of four Vessels of D'tesh... But cities count towards that limit, so realistically it is three vessels (as you have to have the capital). It also means that conquered cities will count towards your limit.

Razing cities, however, gives you a vessel, so you can reposition the city if you wish.