Just gonna up and say it...

[Wodhann]

just curious- if you had only one suggestion to offer that would help alleviate this as much as possible, what would that be? as an example, do you feel the tech tree is holding most of the blame? or the low penalties for expansion? what 1 thing would you change

I used to think wide vs tall was the root of the problem, and thought that wide was always better and a direct sign of a player being in the lead. Nowadays I'm not so sure, and I don't know the state of the mod in that regard. This is not an opinion I hold anymore.

The root of the problem is, in my opinion, the fact that there is no catch up mechanics in the game. As in, once you're hit hard, you're out. If someone conquers half your empire you might as well just give up and quit.

I'm not sure about a fix for this. I'm just trying to diagnose the disease, but I'm not certain about the cure.

All I'm saying is that considering most people only play single-player, balancing multi-player at the cost of single-player probably isn't a good idea.
Also as most people have no experience with multi-player, it makes no sense for them to make suggestions for MP.

I'm not sure there is a "cost" to balancing the game around MP. You're talking as if SP would suffer from having MP in mind but I'm not seeing that.

 

[Funak]

I'm not sure there is a "cost" to balancing the game around MP. You're talking as if SP would suffer from having MP in mind but I'm not seeing that.

I'm fairly certain most suggestions for changes towards MP is going to affect SP in some way, that was however not the point, the point was that if a suggestion would in any way negatively affect single-player, it should probably not be implemented.

Also to bring up my other point again, I'm not sure how you're expecting Gazebo, Ilteroi, wHoward, me or anyone else to bring up multiplayer-suggestions when we don't play mutliplayer.

 

[Wodhann]

I'm fairly certain most suggestions for changes towards MP is going to affect SP in some way, that was however not the point, the point was that if a suggestion would in any way negatively affect single-player, it should probably not be implemented.

Also to bring up my other point again, I'm not sure how you're expecting Gazebo, Ilteroi, wHoward, me or anyone else to bring up multiplayer-suggestions when we don't play mutliplayer.

Not sure what a "multiplayer-suggestion" would be. Unless it's something that affects only players and disregards AI, I don't think there's such a thing.

What I'm saying is that there are design issues that only come to surface when analyzing multiplayer games. The game is the same, but in multiplayer every person involved is trying the best to take advantage of their situation, which makes it wiser to take multiplayer into account in balance issues, because balance problems are basically multiplied, while in single-player they can remain subtle or even dormant.

Whether they play it or not is kind of irrelevant, since they can still watch it and hear reports of people who play it. I don't play MP, for instance, but I know how it is from watching it.

 

[Gazebo]

Eh, Civ is a bit of a snowball game sometimes. It has always been that way, and it will always be that way. In fact, the vast majority of RTS/Strategy/4x games have a point in which you reach 'critical mass' and your victory is a matter of time and patience. It is just part of the genre.

We're way, way beyond structural changes to the project at this point, for what it is worth.

G

 

[Wodhann]

Not suggesting structural changes. Just for events that increase stress for people on top (and perhaps show a bit of mercy for people at the bottom).

Perhaps events that trigger when a player has been completely destroyed by another player mid-game. Call them "mercy events" or something.

 

[tu_79]

You do realize that you can just edit posts instead of making multiple ones following each other, right?


Anyways, suggesting having different event ratios between players and AI goes against one of the base principles of CPP, the part where the AI shouldn't be able to do anything the player can and vice versa.

Not that this interest me anymore, I will mostly play without events, but this sentence has no sense. Every time you increase difficulty, the AI is allowed to do something better than the player, like starting with 2 settlers in the most extreme case, or being a little stronger in battle. And in the lowest difficulty it's just the opposite. So, how does it differ from what I proposed?

EDIT: Yes, I know I can edit, but I was in a hurry.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Yep! I think that, plus removing the delta on a few events (like volcanoes or buildings) will help with the frequency.

G

Hopefully. Being tradition Korea and having a mountain / coastal capital is daunting. Hurricane and Volcanic eruption in Seoul, and the same for 4 satelite cities on a map without tons of room for new cities hit me so hard that my office-mate pulled ahead. If he wins, I'm blaming you.

 

[Xony]

This makes me wonder. How much do spies and the natural ganging up on leaders affect balance in multiplayer? Spies often feel like an additional built-in catchup mechanic to me though maybe being able to choose what it's supposed to do (sabotaging, stealing tech) could make it a more focused one.

 

[DonStamos]

Not suggesting structural changes. Just for events that increase stress for people on top (and perhaps show a bit of mercy for people at the bottom).

Perhaps events that trigger when a player has been completely destroyed by another player mid-game. Call them "mercy events" or something.

This just made me think that an event that fires if someone you have a DOF/alliance with dies, you get a chance to "gift" one of your cities to let them live might be amusing. Probably terribly unbalanced, but amusing.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

This makes me wonder. How much do spies and the natural ganging up on leaders affect balance in multiplayer? Spies often feel like an additional built-in catchup mechanic to me though maybe being able to choose what it's supposed to do (sabotaging, stealing tech) could make it a more focused one.

Constabularies and massive, massive standing armies are requirements in MP, at least with my group.