Legalism Abuse: GnK edition

[Rooftrellen]

I'm a little vexed by how great this 'trick' is. Surely if going for tradition you should fill it out ASAP (taking the monuments) or 3 monuments one amphitheater. The real prize is the free aquaducts so delaying them for free Wats it a shot in the foot right?

I haven't done this with legalism, but I'd imagine that if you want to stick to just 4 cities, you'd be better off taking legalism early.

If you go wide, however, tradition can still certainly be worth taking (the opener is actually awesome with the liberty opener), and you won't likely really want the tradition finisher, and those bonuses for the capital aren't as good either.

In that case, getting free universities in 4 cities would likely be more than worth it, and putting it off doesn't really make much of a difference since you won't be finishing the tree anyway.

That being said, it seems that people are suggesting a 4 city opening and getting wats in all your cities with legalism, and, as I said, if that is the case, I think I'd agree with you, it would be more worth it just to finish Tradition instead of putting policies into honor (when you are going for science?) or liberty (when you have only 4 cities?)

 

[Syntax Error]

I'm a little vexed by how great this 'trick' is. Surely if going for tradition you should fill it out ASAP (taking the monuments) or 3 monuments one amphitheater. The real prize is the free aquaducts so delaying them for free Wats it a shot in the foot right?

Four Wats upon reaching Education means:

Up to 8 Specialists fielded, resulting in quick Scientists.
Over 2400 Gold saved.
33% More science in ALL your cities, even more with Cities in jungles.

That 2400 gold allows you to sign a LOT of research agreements by the time you get Education (up to 9 if you're friends with everybody.) Not only did you get a sudden leg up in tech, you'll also blast through the tech tree quicker. Either that or you use that gold to rush Aqueducts in your cities.

 

[kamex]

Four Wats upon reaching Education means:

Up to 8 Specialists fielded, resulting in quick Scientists.
Over 2400 Gold saved.
33% More science in ALL your cities, even more with Cities in jungles.

That 2400 gold allows you to sign a LOT of research agreements by the time you get Education (up to 9 if you're friends with everybody.) Not only did you get a sudden leg up in tech, you'll also blast through the tech tree quicker. Either that or you use that gold to rush Aqueducts in your cities.

Fair enough. Will have to try it myself. What other tree would yo open while waiting for you ampitheaters to finish?

 

[Syntax Error]

I managed to finish Liberty (first six policies), get Tradition Opener, then use the Liberty GE on The Oracle for Legalism.

The challenge comes from being able to do get Legalism after getting Amphitheaters, Monuments and Libraries, but still maintaining proper tech path and obtaining just the right amount of culture to get to the Renaissance (most likely through Acoustics) to get Rationalism opener as your 9th SP.

Siam plays a great science game because of this, and with the additional culture, allows you to get the Order factory science policy (among other things) much faster.

 

[Cromagnus]

I just can't see the value of waiting so long to complete Tradition unless you weren't planning on going there anyway. I've done this "trick" before, not with Siam, but usually it's because I had already completed Honor or Liberty, and because I hadn't entered the Renaissance yet, it was the best thing on the table. I only got 4 amphitheaters out of the deal, but those are the worst maintenance/culture ratio anyway. Same cost as Opera houses/turn, but lower culture.

I think it works best if you open full Honor then go aggressive and get puppet cities, and as a result don't even have 4 cities of your own until Honor is complete. With Liberty, I can see the value of getting 4 of your universities for free, so you have less to buy/build. But I can't see going opening with Liberty or Honor as Siam.

Really, I think if you're going tall, losing out on those growth bonuses in the early game hurts you so much in the long-term that in the end, the cost savings isn't worth it. Population = Science. Fine. this trick gives you Oxford 10 turns earlier... But how much longer did it take to complete Education? Without the growth bonuses that can't be unlocked until you grab Legalism, you're totally killing your research in the early game...

I think this is waste of time. Anyone care to crunch the numbers and prove it one way or the other?

 

[Mesix]

The growth bonus isn't fully realized in the early game due to happiness limitations. Also, to get social policies (and border expansion) faster, try opening Tradition first and then going through Liberty before returning for Legalism.

 

[Cromagnus]

Hmm, I'm not convinced. The Monarch Social Policy, which you can't get to without Legalism, helps a lot. On top of that, Religion + Mercantile CS + careful city placement = beaucoup happiness.

Heck, I'm usually selling my only copy of a luxury for the first 50+ turns. By the time I have happiness issues, I'm pretty sure the tech advantage from my population growth has more than compensated from the boost you'd get from getting Wats & Oxford earlier.

Playing devil's advocate for a sec, Siam's UA, if used to get bonus food from CS alliances, might compensate a little for the extra growth you lose from completing Tradition earlier... but it won't compensate for the happiness you lose from skipping Monarchy, so you're going to be growth-bound anyway I think.

I dunno. I'm tempted to experiment with both, same start position, one going straight to Legalism, another avoiding Legalism until Education, just to compare.

But Siam isn't on my list right now. I want the Master of the Universe achievement, and all I have left is Catherine and Suleiman. But I'll have to experiment with that. It doesn't take that long to get to Education in a game.

 

[Syntax Error]

The growth bonus isn't fully realized in the early game due to happiness limitations. Also, to get social policies (and border expansion) faster, try opening Tradition first and then going through Liberty before returning for Legalism.

There's a reason you don't go all out on culture early. Remember that you will end up building four monuments and amphitheaters. It's gonna push your CPT by quite a lot. If I'm planning on doing this, I don't get Tradition opener until I'm sure I can finish the required infrastructure (build or buy) before getting to Education AND I'm sure that I can open Rationalism upon getting Acoustics. Just think about Maddjinn's Babylon game, where one culture goodie hut screwed him over and he missed Rationalism opener by one turn!

That's quite a lot of things to balance and get correctly on time! Not only on the Infrastructure side, but also the need for a standing army to defend yourself with, since having four cities by turn 45 is just bound to make neighbors angry!

 

[loki75]

anyone tried this recently? I'm tempted, but delaying aqueducts and landed elite doesn't look good to me in case you are going for a tall empire.

 

[Tachii]

^ Depends on the given map, to be honest. If your growth is good (in addition to a maritime CS where they give you 50% bonus) you might as well start with Liberty, the 4 Wat is a rather huge science boost which works well if you plan to RA immediately after education.

 

[Czer]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the same mechanic holds true if you've built aqueducts in all cities and hold off on finishing Trad until after biology/penicillin is researched to get free hospitals/medical labs? I sometimes find myself not taking Oligarchy until late game on some cultural victories.

 

[Tachii]

No, finisher only applies to Aqueducts. It's precisely stated in the policy compared to Legalism which only apply to "cultural buildings".

 

[Grotius]

I still don't fully understand how Legalism works. Do all four cities have to have a "lower" cultural building in order to qualify for the higher one? For example, what if I have only 3 cities with monuments. When I select Legalism, will that just get me one more monument, or will I get four ampitheaters?

Also, if I haven't researched the requisite tech yet, the new cultural buildings appear once I do that research, right?

Can anyone post a specific sample build order, and Social Policy order?

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

I still don't fully understand how Legalism works. Do all four cities have to have a "lower" cultural building in order to qualify for the higher one? For example, what if I have only 3 cities with monuments. When I select Legalism, will that just get me one more monument, or will I get four ampitheaters?

Also, if I haven't researched the requisite tech yet, the new cultural buildings appear once I do that research, right?

Can anyone post a specific sample build order, and Social Policy order?

1. Yes, you get the available or next available culture based building. So for your example, you would get 1 monument in the next city you settled and 3 amphitheaters in the current ones.

2. Yes, so let's say you haven't researched Drama & Poetry yet, but you take legalism. When D & P comes in, the amphitheaters will appear.

 

[Browd]

In each of your first four cities you will receive the next culture building that you haven't yet built in that city once you research the requisite tech (and immediatley if you've already researched the tech).

To illustrate, let's say you opened Tradition and then switched to Liberty (otherwise you will get Legalism too early for the "trick" to work). You've founded 3 cities and have built: (A) a monument and an amphitheater in your capital, (2) a monument in City No. 2, and (C) nothing relevant in City No. 3. You are a few turns away from researching Acoustics (which unlocks Opera Houses), and have a settler who is enroute to your intended spot for City No. 4, but you need to select your next policy on this turn, so you take Legalism. What happens?

(A) In your capital, in a few turns, when you finish researching Acoustics, a free Opera House will appear.

(B) In City No. 2, a free amphitheater will appear the moment you take Legalism.

(C) In City No. 3, a free monument will appear the moment you take Legalism.

When you found City No. 4 in a few turns, a free monument will appear the moment you found that city.

And, to anticipate a follow-up question, you cannot delay the effect of Legalism by starting work on a given culture building. So, if you weren't thinking ahead and were a couple of turns away from finishing a monument in City No. 3, those hammers go "poof" when you get the free monument - no refund, no consolation gold, no nothing. So, plan carefully.

 

[chmcclellan]

After Education, finish the Tradition tree for more growth and you'll most likely have researched Aquaducts by then to fully exploit the Tradition finisher. The trade-off you make is slower initial growth in exchange for a massive science boost midgame.

A small note, someone can correct me if I'm wrong but the tradition finisher is extra powerful because you get the aqueducts immediately, whether you have the tech or not.

I would guess Siam in a science oriented strategy might benefit from the trick, but in most cases (ie delaying in hopes of grabbing opera houses for a cultural victory), having the extra food in the capital, extra happiness, and the finisher, not to mention not having to worry about building monuments while you are trying to grow early game, is more valuable.

 

[Browd]

You are correct about the finisher and aqueducts.

 

[Donaskme]

having the extra food in the capital, extra happiness, and the finisher, not to mention not having to worry about building monuments while you are trying to grow early game, is more valuable.

I agree. My guess is that the extra population from finishing Tradition earlier would tend to minimize/eliminate the overall gain from delaying them for the free universities later.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i often dont wait for any later buildings to be free. legalism gives me access to +2 food and 10% growth in capital very early. it aids in timing certain benefits like an extra +1 in science from libraries and getting the free aqueducts earlier. and 3 free early monuments is usually enough as i dont build a lot of culture buildings beyond monuments unless im going for a culture vic.

if im going for a culture vic i might rush buy a monument or two to get free amphs but i dont usually have 4 cities and the gold to buy them when legalism becomes available. i can delay it maybe one policy at most (oligarchy or +15% wonders production) before taking legalism. as strong as it sounds i dont think i would even try this with siam in a culture game. probably if i was going wide domination only.