Liberty.

Vilepilot, I will definitely try France at one point Thanks for the advice. Guinsoo, according to the game Tradition is for small empires. This is what put me off this choice of policy as I find that if i stay small and don't expand I quickly get wiped out. Also I do like to fill up as much of the map as i can with my cities. So I choose liberty normally. I play as Egypt as a rule, as the burial tomb helps to negate the unhappiness I find it hard to deal with. Maybe Egypt is not ideal for the liberty tree. I don't honestly know. I like to play for a domination victory, which again I suppose is not ideal for Egypt. Basically I think I should choose the correct civs and policies for the domination vc I prefer. I just find it a little difficult to collectively group all aspects of the game together and make the right choices. I suppose this is what makes the game so entertaining, having multiple choices which lead in different directions. I am definitely gonna try tradition though,, as I don't play multi- player. I generally play on King now, and find that if I expand fairly vigorously I tend to edge into the lead as the game progresses, whereas if i stay with a small empire I slip down the pecking order. This is probably due to my limitations as a player in this complex game, as I don't fully understand how small empires can progress nicely (although I know they can do). Thanks again for the advice.
Kev.

Actually, Egypt is a great civ for Liberty because of your UB Burial Tomb, +2 happy per city. Combine with +1 happy from shrines or +2 happy from temples and you end up with a lot of local happiness from a small number of buildings.

Hmm, Tradition. I don't really agree with the statement that Tradition is only good for small empires. Plenty of times I have settled my first 4 Tradition cities, only to realize there was tons of open space, so I settle 6 more. Of course Liberty would have gotten me to the 10 cities quicker, but Tradition allows you to grow larger (at least in 4 core cities). To me, the best part of going liberty is the free great person for a free Petra or Hagia Sophia! Yeah Liberty gives you a flat 50% production bonus to settlers. But that does not mean 50% more settlers. For one thing, you buy some settlers. Second, Tradition allows your capital to grow a lot larger, working more tiles, so it can build settlers quicker than a smaller Liberty city.

The majority of the benefits of Liberty are really not all that great past early game, I don't find that the free worker and settler of liberty accelerate you that much due to being able to sell luxes and buy them, plus Tradition cities grow bigger and can thus produce things quicker anyway (as well as generate more science, gold, etc)

Still, you say that you like to fill up the map with all your cities, so there's no reason for you not to pick Liberty if that's how you like to play. Have you tried the Maya? I think they're the best ICS civ due to the UB Pyramid giving both faith and science, as well as the free great people they get. Normally the Long Count is anathema to great people generation (at least of the ones you want), but wide empires don't generate many great people anyway.

I'm really not a fan of Liberty overall; I think it's weaker than Tradition under most circumstances, except when you *really* want to spam out cities (talking 12-20 or more), but it sounds like that's exactly what you like to do. So I think you should stick to it.


One last point: you mention that you feel like you'll be overrun if you don't spam out cities. This doesn't have to be the case. It is possible to defend yourself, even on diety, even if you build only one city. Spamming out cities and keeping up in science is hard, and science is the backbone of civ. By playing in a city spam manner, you're inflating the difficulty. Maybe that's fine for you :D Or maybe you like the extra micromanagement of having 20 cities; I know I start to get annoyed when MY turn starts taking 15 minutes (let alone the inter-turn delay). As tends to happen as the game goes on when you ICS.

Now, it's generally considered easier to keep your military up and large if you build more cities, so if you favor domination games, that's OK. But it's harder to do a science, culture, or diplomacy win with 20 cities than 4. (some pro like tommy nt is gonna come in and tell me how I'm wrong on this point, well maybe for him, but for us non pros this is the case).

I rambled a lot in this post, so here's a TL;DR:
Liberty is correct for your city spam playstyle for sure, and Egypt is good for it, but you don't need to spam cities and it's harder. Have you tried a 4 city tradition game?
 
Guinsoo, thanks again for the info. You say the free great person gets you Petra or Hagia Sophia. Don't you choose Notre Dame then? I believed this was the most sought after and useful wonder due to the happiness boost. To explain what I mean by feeling the need to keep building cities: In my current game I am against Greece on king level, and Greece is spamming cities for all its worth. Doesnt this mean that if I don't at least keep on his heels with cities I will fall behind in power? As he can build more units, wonders etc? And cities are difficult to take over or defeat. I notice that when I keep churning out cities I keep on level pegging with them. Does city spamming hinder science then? I thought it helped as the more cities the more citizens to research science. It does get more difficult to defend them though, finding the units to protect an ever greater area. I havent tried Maya yet, or the four city tradition approach. As I said, I tend to find the happiness barrier difficult so I often use Egypt. But I am ready for a change so will probably try another civ (maybe Maya). During my games I often see different social polices from different groups that would help me in the given current situation. Like having the gold bonus from commerce when a little low with money, or taking some of the honor polices when at war. (I definitely need to dip into honor more to help against the constantly warring opponents. I am going to try tradition in my next game, for sure. I am not sure where I read that liberty was the best choice by far, but I did read it somewhere. Time for a bit of experimenting with other policies.
thanks,
Kev
 
I usually choose a Great Scientist with the free GP from Liberty. I usually finish the tree to late to use it for Petra and the Hagia Sophia is usually gone by then too. Notre Dame is nice, but the computer builds it really early and it's generally gone before I even research the technology. It sounds like your warring skills need some work as that's where a lot of your problems stem from. Try playing a domination game or two to work on troop movement/placement/strategies. If you get those down, then you can easily play without over-expanding just to keep up with the AI.
 
Guinsoo, thanks again for the info. You say the free great person gets you Petra or Hagia Sophia. Don't you choose Notre Dame then? I believed this was the most sought after and useful wonder due to the happiness boost. To explain what I mean by feeling the need to keep building cities: In my current game I am against Greece on king level, and Greece is spamming cities for all its worth. Doesnt this mean that if I don't at least keep on his heels with cities I will fall behind in power? As he can build more units, wonders etc? And cities are difficult to take over or defeat. I notice that when I keep churning out cities I keep on level pegging with them. Does city spamming hinder science then? I thought it helped as the more cities the more citizens to research science. It does get more difficult to defend them though, finding the units to protect an ever greater area. I havent tried Maya yet, or the four city tradition approach. As I said, I tend to find the happiness barrier difficult so I often use Egypt. But I am ready for a change so will probably try another civ (maybe Maya). During my games I often see different social polices from different groups that would help me in the given current situation. Like having the gold bonus from commerce when a little low with money, or taking some of the honor polices when at war. (I definitely need to dip into honor more to help against the constantly warring opponents. I am going to try tradition in my next game, for sure. I am not sure where I read that liberty was the best choice by far, but I did read it somewhere. Time for a bit of experimenting with other policies.
thanks,
Kev

Maya's religious muscle allows you to easily overcome happiness barriers. Not only do you get the incredible Pyramid but if you're pressed you can grab a great prophet for your first great person or engineer for Hagia if available. There are a number of quality happiness beliefs in religion; I like +1 happy / city founder and +1 happy / shrine follower beliefs. But a lot of the other choices are good too.

As far as policies - try to focus. Yes, the gold bonus from commerce would be nice... but would it be better than opening rationalism? Sometimes the answer is yes. Just make sure you're always asking that question. Usually the preferred path is (tradition or liberty) -> filler policies in honor, patronage, or commerce -> rationalism when unlocked. It isn't the only way, but it's a solid, battle-tested way. Some policies in honor are nice if you're planning on going domination. Really nice actually. If you plan on another victory, you don't need honor to defend against warmongers. If you're having trouble defending against AI rushes, try playing a few of the tactics-heavy scenarios (Fall of Rome comes to mind) to practice. If you have 4-6 composite bows you should be able to defend against anything the AI throws at you sub-turn 150 (window shrinks on higher difficulties for sure). Just be patient with your units, poke at them, try not to ever lose a unit. Fall back to your cities and defend there. Lure them into death traps in defensible terrain.

Hmm, there are two major scenarios where I'd say Liberty is clearly better: vanilla (where free settler comes at the top of the tree instead of 2nd tier) and multiplayer (where gold is much more scarce). I think Tradition was also buffed in G&K. So it's entirely possible what you read was dealing with either of those things.

OK as far as big cities vs small cities: The main reason I think it's easier to make more science in a tall empire is that you get your core buildings up in your tallest cities quickest (both by buying them and by virtue of the fact that they can work more production tiles). The multipliers against the big population is where the big beakers come from - along with academies a tall empire capital might produce 400+ beakers in the end game. Additionally, you "pay" 3 happiness per city that you don't get any extra science for, so in terms of happiness -> population -> science, you get the best bang for your buck with few, tall cities (it's a little complicated when you factor in that more cities also get more luxuries, but the multiplier building factor weighs strong). Now, there's a third option which is a wideish empire that also goes tall, you have to play well and be good to pull it off, but this is the best option and can produce ridiculous beaker totals like 1500 or 2000 in the end game. Wide empires on the other hand are good at producing a big army and conquering, so if you enjoy that, that is definitely a perk.
 
I was having problems till the guys here knocked some sense into me. I used to play the earlier civs where you got as many cities as you could. This was a culture shock. I also now play on king.

Now I go 4 maybe 5 city tradition with any civ early on. This allows me to get lib, NC and uni in all core citys. You build/buy 4 or 5 melee, double that in archers and as many cats as you can as they will become your core later. If you time it right you can actually get to Renaisance just as you finish Tradition and don't have to waste any culture but lately I get SP to fast and have been doing the commerce opener before going rationalism. The melee plus archers and cats make you unappitising as you are usually near the top in military strength. I like to throw a twist though to get the AI to come at me so I can improve my army after the xp runs out on barbs. Research for CB and/or crossbows but don't upgrade. You soon look very weak and someone will DoW you. Then use your gold to upgrade everything and own the AI and follow with your first puppet push. If it works right you get a nice settlement.

Now for what I have found works for me and fulfills the inner city spammer in me. Once I finish Rationalism I usually find I have a pretty good tech lead and I go Order. I am just getting the hang of beating the AI to Industrial and when I do they don't stand a chance. Order as you progress down it allows you to go wide with puppets while your core 4 or 5 citys grow like weeds.

I have been getting on for 1000+ bpt during the end game. Although the last game doing this method gave me 2500+ bpt by end game as I got lucky with desert folklore and petra plus a fantastic start. Happiness is key as you get to a point where it's a problem but only for a few turns and then your tech rescues you as the newer happiness buildings start to become available and you just forget about happiness. Plus as you puppet you get more unique lux and it really does start to become a none issue and you get into snowball territory. I think some civs may be better for this but I have managed to do it with Babylon, India and Russia now.
 
My first Civ 5 game was that way too, like jumping from the hot tub into a cold pool. I played standard prince map, and after getting the hang of 1UPT combat system, i destroyed all. Problem I had was after I conquered my first two civs, I was at -20 something happiness. I said "aww so what, I don't need them to produce anything." A few more city captures later, barbarian "rebels" start appearing. I was like "dude, FTW is that??" I finished that game with something like -49 happiness. :lol:
 
I will often take the Tradition opener first, then full Liberty. You get the growth bonus for your capital. If you can hit 2 culture ruins, this works a treat. If not I will often build/buy a worker and my 1st settler.

Let's face it, in a decent city a settler is going to take 8 turns that early ? got to be worth it while you're still scouting. Later in the game settlers should only be costing 4 turns max really. If I have the money, I'll build the settler and but a granary when I plant him, and a watermill too if I have the cash.

I will often take Liberty when looking to build a quick NC or other specific strategy, plus the bonus from Representation and the free GP make it quite a strong tree in my opinion.

But as with everything in this game, it depends on your map, your civ and your game plan etc...
 
Liberty is best when you want a fast start. As such you will often find it recommended for multiplayer (also because getting gold for settlers/workers from AI isn't happening).

Liberty is also best when you want to play "wide," which I suppose means 7 cities or more.

Liberty is also interesting if you find a beautiful Petra spot and want the Great Engineer or if you have another early wonder critical to your strategy.

Liberty is good for fast domination games, partly because it gives you a fast start and an extra hammer, but mostly because honor sucks and tradition takes a while to kick in fully with its growth benefits.

Tradition is usually best for science and diplo victories, while also being good for domination victories that take more than 150 turns.

In a culture victory, both Liberty and Tradition trees will get filled out.
 
Thanks guys, lots to absorb here! I will be an expert before long at this rate:) I was actually on level pegging with Greece in my most recent game, and have learned to keep units behind my cities rather than let them get destroyed. I did abandon the game, however, as I slowly started dropping back again. I had a good variety of buildings in my cities and a good sized army. Inland sea map against Greece and Russia was the setting, (King). The problem was the position of both Greece and Russia. I was at the bottom right of the map, with Russia above me. Greece was bottom left. And every time I managed to beat one opponent back and obtain peace, the other civ would declare war. So I had to keep sending my army back and forth to defend my land, ( a fair distance). This caused the gradual slip behind the other two,as they never declared war with each other (well, once for a very short time). I have started again, going tradition and will see how things pan out.
Thanks again,
Kev.
 
I always take liberty... I sometimes start with tradition for the expansion and 3 culture, but I can't resist the free worker. I just value hammers so much.

Am I just a mathematical moron? I just don't see the advantage of a free culture building until after I have a few cities to build them in. The extra hammer in Liberty seems to be as good as the boost to wonder building... and the city defense one? I've never really needed that.

am I just missing something obvious here about Tradition?
 
am I just missing something obvious here about Tradition?
The Tradition food bonuses and free aqueducts are worth more than an extra hammer, especially paired with ToA / religion / a Civil Service beeline, Tradition gives you a core of cities that are soon twice the size which can work a lot more mines. The wonder and unit output of a Tradition-vs-Liberty empire is night and day. And focusing on Great Persons by concentrating wonders by point-types and manually assigning specialist spots outdoes the Liberty closer.

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The billing in regards quick-vs-slow expansion is really a little backward. TRADITION GIVES YOU A FASTER START, in terms of infrastructure, culture, and science. Even to late medieval-era, a TALL empire with finished banks and universities tends to a lot MORE sophisticated than a WIDE neighbor that is still struggling to finish markets with 20-turn build rates.

It's not until late-Renaissance that a wide empire starts to "turn on" and approach higher gold and bpt ceilings. In higher difficulty levels, tradition is semi-essential because the player needs to catch up, there's no way to survive until late-Renaissance before getting into gear. Instead, the player uses well-timed but aggressive conquest to transition from a compact core to a wide economic super-power. Tradition let's you micromanage this expansion via military tactics rather than passively planting weak baby cities, waiting 200 turns and hoping for the best.

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Who mentioned opening tradition and switching to Liberty? PLEASE no one do this unless you intend on finishing tradition later. Just do the math on policy costs, remember that later in the game you will be charged 1000s of purples more because you opened that superfluous policy early on. 3 per turn will never be worth it. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=468130 for discussion.
 
I always take liberty... I sometimes start with tradition for the expansion and 3 culture, but I can't resist the free worker. I just value hammers so much.

Am I just a mathematical moron? I just don't see the advantage of a free culture building until after I have a few cities to build them in. The extra hammer in Liberty seems to be as good as the boost to wonder building... and the city defense one? I've never really needed that.

am I just missing something obvious here about Tradition?

I think Liberty has 3 main perks for a "normal" sized empire: the free worker, the free settler, and the free great person. I believe the free units are offset by tradition's advantages to getting your empire up - for example Monarchy gets you more gold and happy so you can sell more luxes. I don't really find Liberty starts to be any faster than Tradition. At least with the way I play, which is meet as many CS as possible, sell embassies, sell luxes, and sell GPT to get workers and sometimes settlers early (I usually rush NC, then spam out 3-6 more cities as quickly as possible).

On the other hand, the free great person is awesome. No doubt about that. But I'm not gonna take a tree for the one perk. Tradition gives loads more growth in both the capital and next 3 cities. Free culture buildings (you get the free buildings even if you haven't built the city yet, and if you already have say a monument you will get an ampitheater when you get the tech). Faster wonders, including the essential NC. And the garrison bonus is underrated, Tradition cities do a lot of damage. Only useful if you're being attacked and only if stressed, but that's often when I play. But if you're not stressed... why aren't you playing on a higher difficulty? Or building less military to try for a faster finish time?

As I noted earlier, in multiplayer Liberty becomes that much better because you can't generate nearly as much gold early in the game, which you need for Tradition to compete with Liberty's speed. In multiplayer Liberty is amazing. Liberty can also be nice if you have an isolated start and are having trouble making money, or if you have a wide open expanse and want to spam out 15 cities. I'm no expert, but I have tried out both openings quite a bit on immortal, and I don't find Liberty better than Tradition for a 1-7 city empire... except under exceptional circumstances.
 
(multiplayer)If you play with city states you can make better empires with Tradition. The free monuments are great. All you need is to build a couple of archers instead...then bully some cs ;)

kirborg pretty well summarized the whole thing.
 
Who mentioned opening tradition and switching to Liberty? PLEASE no one do this unless you intend on finishing tradition later. Just do the math on policy costs, remember that later in the game you will be charged 1000s of purples more because you opened that superfluous policy early on. 3 per turn will never be worth it. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=468130 for discussion.

Actually, I don't agree with that 100%. That thread did indeed definitively answer the question of, "does Tradition opener help you get to the Liberty finisher faster?" The answer is no. But that's not the only question to be answered.

When I go for science victories, my goal is to open rationalism as quickly as possible (well, that's one goal). However, often my culture will exceed my science output and I am forced to take a filler policy after completing Tradition or Liberty and before opening Rationalism. That filler policy is usually Patronage or Commerce, but what if it were Tradition (taken at the start instead of as 7th policy of course)? Yes, putting 1 point in Tradition will delay the Liberty completion slightly. But, it speeds up the process to Rationalism!

Of course, there are tradeoffs: You're forgoing either 25% gold in your capital or 25% slower influence decay with city states, and you're getting Liberty complete a few turns later. But you get Rationalism a few turns earlier - assume you open Tradition at turn 15, and open Rationalism at turn 110 (I strive for 100, but if I weren't behind on science, I wouldn't need a 7th policy before Rationalism and this would be a moot argument). So that's 95 turns x 3 culture = 285 culture. Around turn 110 I'm typically making 40-60 culture a turn, so 285 extra culture means you get to Rationalism about 5-6 turns quicker than if you choose to open Commerce or Patronage.

In some cases isn't that worth it? I'm not necessarily advocating this approach, but isn't this at least worth thinking about?
 
Tradition is the best. Liberty good for offensive players, IMO.
 
I personally prefer tradition over liberty. Not that Liberty's benefits are bad, tradition's benefit are visible immediately: double city garrison strength, 2 food in capital, faster tile grab (opener + monuments).

In comparison, the free liberty settler is too deep in the tree, the golden age is wasted so early in the game, the free worker is... okay I guess, while the 1 happy per road connection requires, well, cities. I would say that Liberty effects become really good at around T 100 (quick).

Truly, the only real benefit of Liberty over tradition is the Great Person.

Liberty Great Scientist is great for early aggressive strategies that want to stick to the bottom half of the tech tree (Chivalry or Steel), but overall, "Tradition First" makes much more sense to me, especially on small/normal maps.
 
Civilization choice give more or less points to Liberty vs honor, but also the map type. Bigger maps give points to liberty, also island maps.

Even France could work well with tradition. I don't see why you would do monument early, you already have the monument boost for free, so is not priority. Any civ with a great UB is also prone to go liberty.

My "default" liberty setup is scout, worker, and straight to the free settler, while buying the settler with gold when possible, landing the settler on resources on many ocasions, but it really depends a lot on situation.
 
Liberty works best on small or standard map size, and only if you get a 30 culture hut early. The quick boost will allow you to get to collective rule quickly.

Otherwise, stick to tradition.
 
Well, I started another game and picked Tradition this time, with domination victory again. I have still managed to expand to a decent degree, and am well on top of the game. Greece declared war as usual, but I held them back and got good progress with science. I got to dynamite and waited, like a poster on here said. Greece declared war again and I upgraded my cannons to artillery. Devastating! I slaughtered his army and he soon gave me peace with plenty of his gold. Since then I have declared war a few times, picking off his cities one by one. Well ahead on score and there is no way back for the opposition now. I would definitely recommend tradition to anyone now. I did still choose most of the liberty tree after I filled out tradition, then took rationalism as was recommended.
 
Well, I started another game and picked Tradition this time, with domination victory again. I have still managed to expand to a decent degree, and am well on top of the game. Greece declared war as usual, but I held them back and got good progress with science. I got to dynamite and waited, like a poster on here said. Greece declared war again and I upgraded my cannons to artillery. Devastating! I slaughtered his army and he soon gave me peace with plenty of his gold. Since then I have declared war a few times, picking off his cities one by one. Well ahead on score and there is no way back for the opposition now. I would definitely recommend tradition to anyone now. I did still choose most of the liberty tree after I filled out tradition, then took rationalism as was recommended.

Nice one, m8. Good win incoming.

I actually have a hybrid build I use on Immortal+ games. I start with the Tradition opener, then Liberty opener all the way to Collective Rule. Complete Tradition, then head to Rationalism.

This kind of cherry picking doesn't really work so well for Cultural victories, but can be devastating in more aggressive game styles.

Note: The Tradition opener is to get the +3 culture in the capital. That alone can push you to some key, early policies.
 
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