Liberty.

[tomtom5858]

Note: The Tradition opener is to get the +3 culture in the capital. That alone can push you to some key, early policies.

Please, the +3 culture? IMO, the best part of the opener is not the culture, but the faster border expansion. With Liberty, the maximum border expansion will generally be around 6 tiles unless you're seriously wonder spamming. For Tradition, you can expand to the full 6 tile radius in an OCC by turn 200 or so.

 

[kkapalk]

Traejun, yes it is pretty tempting to dip into other trees. I find It hard to resist the liberty one that gives plus one happiness for each city connected to the capital. The tradition tree has really helped me though. I have only won once on King before, but see quite a few victories in the near future. One thing I found strange In this game was that Greece allied 8 city states in the early game. I don't know how they managed this. There was no way they could afford all the gold/ complete the umpteen quests in such a short time. I completed a quest for a certain city state and became friends, and instantly straight after Greece became allies with said state. Alexander was pledging to protect all the states before he became allies, but surely that doesn't help the influence too much?

 

[tomtom5858]

Traejun, yes it is pretty tempting to dip into other trees. I find It hard to resist the liberty one that gives plus one happiness for each city connected to the capital. The tradition tree has really helped me though. I have only won once on King before, but see quite a few victories in the near future. One thing I found strange In this game was that Greece allied 8 city states in the early game. I don't know how they managed this. There was no way they could afford all the gold/ complete the umpteen quests in such a short time. I completed a quest for a certain city state and became friends, and instantly straight after Greece became allies with said state. Alexander was pledging to protect all the states before he became allies, but surely that doesn't help the influence too much?

It's a +10 boost to base influence. How early was this? I'm guessing that he used PtP and Aesthetics to be friends with everyone, then used Philanthropy boosted gold gifts to ally.

 

[Traejun]

Please, the +3 culture? IMO, the best part of the opener is not the culture, but the faster border expansion. With Liberty, the maximum border expansion will generally be around 6 tiles unless you're seriously wonder spamming. For Tradition, you can expand to the full 6 tile radius in an OCC by turn 200 or so.

Border expansion is certainly a major benefit, but unless you're playing on a large+ map, you probably aren't going to have that much space to expand anyway. I tend to like smaller maps myself. It leads to earlier conflict.

 

[kkapalk]

Tomtom, I am not sure exactly how early it was. I did check his social policies a little later,and he had opened only one policy in the patronage tree. The problem I had was being surrounded by city states as the map was small/inland sea. Obviously when Greece declared war on me they did too! I eventually took over two city states and overtook Greece as ally to another two. Looking much better now, but city states can be a big hindrance in such cases.

 

[Jelster]

Who mentioned opening tradition and switching to Liberty? PLEASE no one do this unless you intend on finishing tradition later. Just do the math on policy costs, remember that later in the game you will be charged 1000s of purples more because you opened that superfluous policy early on. 3 per turn will never be worth it. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=468130 for discussion.

ME !!

And it'snot "just" about the 3 CPT, it's the growth bonus you get from the Tradition opener.

I don't always do it, but I have found it effective in games where I want to play Liberty, but I'm only going to run 4 cities tops.

 

[shinchan820000]

Sorry.noobies question.what is ToA ? and when can i get all this civilization abbreviation stand for

 

[kirbdog]

Sorry.noobies question.what is ToA ? and when can i get all this civilization abbreviation stand for

This is a good place to start:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=442106

Temple of Artemis, by the way.

 

[shinchan820000]

This is a good place to start:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=442106

Temple of Artemis, by the way.

thank you so much.this is exactly what i search for

 

[Big J Money]

What do people think about Liberty now that puppets get the -25% to culture penalty?

I don't play CV because I don't know how to make it work yet, but how has that change impacted Liberty for puppets?

 

[Sabrina]

ME !!

And it'snot "just" about the 3 CPT, it's the growth bonus you get from the Tradition opener.

I don't always do it, but I have found it effective in games where I want to play Liberty, but I'm only going to run 4 cities tops.

Yeah, I do that too... Usually open tradition, get the SP that improves wonder production, switch to liberty, go it all the way. Go back to tradition and finish it, remembering to sell existing aqueducts before adopting the finisher. The 3 CPT from tradition opener are a lot in the early game, maybe it makes no sense adopting tradition after you finished liberty because by that time you should already making much more CPT than that.

 

[stii]

Actually, I don't agree with that 100%. That thread did indeed definitively answer the question of, "does Tradition opener help you get to the Liberty finisher faster?" The answer is no. But that's not the only question to be answered.

When I go for science victories, my goal is to open rationalism as quickly as possible (well, that's one goal). However, often my culture will exceed my science output and I am forced to take a filler policy after completing Tradition or Liberty and before opening Rationalism. That filler policy is usually Patronage or Commerce, but what if it were Tradition (taken at the start instead of as 7th policy of course)? Yes, putting 1 point in Tradition will delay the Liberty completion slightly. But, it speeds up the process to Rationalism!

Of course, there are tradeoffs: You're forgoing either 25% gold in your capital or 25% slower influence decay with city states, and you're getting Liberty complete a few turns later. But you get Rationalism a few turns earlier - assume you open Tradition at turn 15, and open Rationalism at turn 110 (I strive for 100, but if I weren't behind on science, I wouldn't need a 7th policy before Rationalism and this would be a moot argument). So that's 95 turns x 3 culture = 285 culture. Around turn 110 I'm typically making 40-60 culture a turn, so 285 extra culture means you get to Rationalism about 5-6 turns quicker than if you choose to open Commerce or Patronage.

In some cases isn't that worth it? I'm not necessarily advocating this approach, but isn't this at least worth thinking about?

While it is true that getting a 6th policy before you can get rationlism I feel that picking tradition is a bad solution. You are much better trying to limited your culture and tech up so you can pick rationlism as your 6th. It is certainly possible to doso.

 

[Justice1337]

Tradtion leads to better starts and better overall results for most empire sizes, but Liberty eventually provides more culture, hammers and happiness for empires beyond a certain size.

What I miss when I go Liberty of course is the early culture, the early bump to Wonder production, and the early growth. In short, the somewhat faster start. But what I miss about Liberty when I go Tradition is mid-game culture, the extra hammer in new cities, and the happiness. So by the end of the game where I have ~20 cities, I am usually glad when I picked Liberty and regret I hadn't when I've picked Tradtion.

Republic is actually a great policy. When I'm founding new cities past about 500AD I often find myself rush-buying Workshops or looking for per-city bonuses so that I can get things off the ground there, and Republic does a lot of work. Republic and the Collective Rule production bonus together definitely provide more Hammers over the long than Aristocracy, but the real consideration there is whether you get your Wonders.


I've heard it said that the Settler from Collective Rule is not nearly as valuable in light of the fact that you can get Gold from the AI to rush buy a Settler. I find that this argument is basically a red herring. You can buy a Settler the same way regardless of what Policy tree you open. You can then also build/buy an equal amount of additional Settlers, regardless of Tradition or Liberty. Collective Rule just gives you a Settler on top of that. The only real problem is if you can't or shouldn't found a new city past then. This situation is kind of rare, from what I've found. When opening Tradition, I really often find myself wishing I could just squeak one more Settler out before I have to start building NC/University in the Capital, but then end up not being able to postpone these things ~10 turns. Then I either end up Settling the location 40'ish turns later, or I just lose the location altogether. The 6th-7th city isn't always on prime terrain, but it's certainly much better to have it than not. Collective Rule really is as close as it gets to a free City. I still remember the super-busted France openings before the tree was changed. 20'ish turns later than that isn't as big of a deal as it's made out to be.


The main thing though is that the number of cities affected by Tradition (4) doesn't change at all with the map size. So on the small-ish Standard Pangea maps that are so popular, esp on Diety, space is already limited in a major way. There, you are really lucky to even get all 4 cities, and liberty is just not going to shine until very late game. Because whether you want it or not, you're playing a Tradition-style game of growing your cities pop's from T50 on. No one ever gets to see those 8 city games where you follow up with two Maritime allies on T100.