Malakim Ashen Veil Theory

nealhunt

Warlord
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
253
Still theory because I haven't tested it, but it seems to me that AV would be a rather nice choice of religions for Malakim and Varn Gosam. To a certain extent, any Spiritual Civ can do some nice things with AV but Malakim w/ Varn have some added benefits for Disciple units. The basic idea is an army of arcane and disciple units.

The key is the upgrade path for Lightbringers and Savants, which can make some strong disciple units, but which can also move into the Arcane path.

Lightbringer -> Savant -> Ritualist
or
Lightbringer -> Savant -> Mage

Any spiritual civ will grant Savants Potency and Mobility. However, by upgrading from a Lighbringer, Malakim can also give them Sentry. It's not huge but when it comes to defending stacks via things like Fireball it can be quite useful.

Another major piece is Varn's Adaptive trait. By the time you get the first choice of traits you should have 2-3 cities with 1-2 Shrines (half price shrines from Spiritual) and be running Priest specialists. Switching to Philosophical should quickly net several Prophets. One can go to the shrine and the others can go to Altar stages.

Malakim can give all Disciple units +2XP from Desert Shrines. With an Altar level or two starting disciple units should have 6 xp easy (Shrine, 1 Altar, Apprenticeship) and probably more like 8-10xp. If not immediately promotable, Lightbringer-Savants will age into Mages quickly. The new Mages will be short on spheres, but they'll have Potency to help them rapidly gain XP. If you promote the Savants through Combat III up to 4th level, your Mages will have CIII, Potency, Medic and Sentry. They won't need Combat promotions so they can spend all promotions on spheres and rapidly expand their available spells.

Another nice feature of AV is Diseased Corpses. They provide a decent melee unit option without detouring from the religion and arcane lines. Later when you can spare time to run down the metal lines they will benefit from the weapon upgrades.

This strategy can use Ritualists' Ring of Fire and Mage spells to bypass the need for siege weapons.

Weaknesses are, obviously, the fact that a major portion of the military is Arcane and Disciple. There aren't many good options for guarding the stacks other than massed Diseased Corpses and assassins will cause problems. Death Mana will be quite useful for summoning stack reinforcements (and for using Liches to maximize Channeling III units later on).

As far as spheres for magic, Elementalism will provide good spells for both offense and stack protection if you can see the enemy coming. It can also provide water mana for Spring on deserts if you want it. Necromancy will be useful for death mana as described above. Divination would be my next choice, as with Life and Mind mana from the palace it won't take much to allow the Tower of Divination for that free tech.

For mid-game military, the religion path provides Profanes and Eidelons. A little later Rage comes off the religion path, allowing Berzerkers. There should also be time by then to divert down the metal path for late-game which improves Diseased Corpses as well as allowing melee units (which upgrade into a bunch of different national units).

Eidolons: You should be able to hit Eidelons mid-game if you focus. Ritualists can, of course, be upgraded to Eidelons so they can benefit from all the promotion stacking from the disciple upgrade paths described above. Or if you have a highly promoted Diseased Corpse walking around, you can upgrade them as well. Medic and March are a really nice combo for keeping on the move, not to mention a Life mage in the stack casting Regenerate on top of that. 30% healing per turn while moving 2, with direct damage that bypasses city defense makes for a heck of a blitz. Picking up Command for the Eidolons should help out some with making sure you can garrison cities as you blitz as well. Since your Ritualists and Mages should be pounding down the enemy for the Eidelons to finish off, they can pick up Command fairly early.

Malevolent Designs for Eidolons also opens up Mardero. He has Channeling III so you could make him a heavy arcane unit, but as a Disciple unit with Channeling III he is eligible for Command III. A 50% chance of converting every defeated unit will be a huge benefit in a blitz campaign as above.

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It's a work in progress. I'd like to get feedback about improvements - mainly overcoming the weak strength of units early on and assassins or other marksman units later on.
 
combat 3 -> guardsman for your corpses would prevent assassin attacks, so that's pretty easily covered.

How would you add your world spell into the mix?
 
Ashen Veil kicks ass for Malakim until you realize all your lands have become burning sands. I always use Malakim to summon Hyborem because they can do so by turn 120 which sets me up to kick the crap out of the entire map while the AI has nothing but axemen at best.

I don't think ashen veil works out too well with Malakim though because burning sands don't let normal units move through them if they're on fire. (I think so, I couldn't get my slaves to move through them unless they were orcish or demonic).

My strat is simple: Malakim cities grow big fast, Malakim founds religions fast, Malakim will be surrounded by burning sands and be crippled when Hybo is summoned, Hybo can find Malakim, kill them off and get a TON of manes thanks to huge pop cities and ALSO get the Ashen Veil holy city.

A strong mid-end game for Hybo if these objectives are met.

If I don't spawn by Malakim... oh well. :rolleyes:

Anyways back to the Malakim-AV issue: The upgrade lines are interesting but you have to keep in mind that Malakim has hammer issue at the start of the game and if you're going to main with them and not switch to hybo then you're going to want to get Mining pretty early. Malakim DOES have a powerful early anti-barb capability with a 95% default chance to win on a desert if attacking a barb warrior with one of your own.

When looking at if a civ will be successful or not it's usually best to look at early-mid game. The end game is decided when one person makes it to those final techs because they units they provide are pretty game-breaking. (Subject to opinion but I think a strong early game is all the difference between winning and losing). Malakim's AV early game is pretty powerful with religion founding but if those burning sands do stop their unit movement that would be annoying. (They also lose their desert advantage because desert != burning sands so say good bye to that extra commerce.)

ALSO: If you fail to get mining before you're ready to build your first settler YOU WILL have issues building that settler... (This only applies if you don't begin near the Mirror of Heaven or in an unflavoury start with forests and floodplains)

Just my opinion and I'm not positive burning sand's fires will impede your movement but I think it will.
 
combat 3 -> guardsman for your corpses would prevent assassin attacks, so that's pretty easily covered.

The problem is that just a couple of Guardsmen become suicide troops because they keep defending after being wounded.

How would you add your world spell into the mix?

I think the Malakim spell is one of the best in the game and the same strategies apply to using it almost regardless of the overarching strat.

I often keep it for defense or use it for a trap. If the AI starts an invasion (or gets a stack past your front line in a war you started) a wave of priests will put a hurt on them, especially in this case with Ritualists that can basically bombard the stack before it can attack a city. Once that's over the priests can rush forward to the front lines.

If you bait an enemy into attacking your "weak" empire, you can snap a trap shut on them. It's always helpful to vassalize an opponent when you don't have the -3 "you declared war on us" penalty.

The spell can also be used for an offensive build up. Get all your other units in place, kick off the war, hit the spell and you have an instant wave of troops (all with Mobility) to race forward to join the fight. You don't pay the hammer costs and you don't pay maintenance until just before you start to use them. With high XP out of the gate they can often be upgraded to fill in High Priest and Paladin/Eidolon/Druid slots as they are lost. Sometimes if you're in a strong position just the spike in power score from using it will cause the AI to offer capitulation.

Finally, if you find yourself within striking distance of a religion victory, there's nothing like a wave of priests pounding out temples and inquisitions.
 
Very interesting. I would argue that starting the upgrade path with Lightbringers rather than with Savants is not ideal, because I don't believe that Sentry is worth the promotion gold. If you really want Sentry, you can always promote one Lightbringer this way, and he can Sentry for the whole stack. For most of the units though, I would just do the Savant-> Mage upgrade (and build Ritualists from scratch). The rest of the strategy seems very powerful though.

BugReportage's mention of burning sands is a good point; I wonder if other religions might be better overall? Order is another religion with strong combat-oriented Priests, but their Bless spell is a little less attractive when you're going to build the Altars and give your units an (initial) Bless anyway. I wonder if FoL might not be the best option? On first glance it seems silly to go FoL when you're in the desert, but the Priest of Leaves tiger summon is very strong, particularly when your Priests are nicely leveled. And while FoL doesn't gain you anything economically in the desert, as it might if you had forest around, it doesn't lose you anything either, as Veil's burning sands do. And frankly, I would argue that you don't need the Diseased Corpses for defense when your Altar-boosted Priests start with 10xp+ and can get C2-Shock. Really, since all your priests are going to have free Mobility, 1-move Diseased Corpses would just slow you down.
 
Ashen Veil kicks ass for Malakim until you realize all your lands have become burning sands.

I wouldn't summon Hyborem with this plan (I actually dislike hell terrain in general).

But that shouldn't be a problem. Malakim have Life and Mind mana from the palace. Inspiration will more than make up for the maintenance cost of Adepts, so you can have a "bucket brigade" of Adepts in the border cities casting sanctify to keep hell terrain back. For moving elsewhere you can just put Life adepts/mages in the stacks and sanctify as you need to move.

Also, even with the current bonuses on desert trade I would still convert them all to plains ASAP because the benefit is so much better than the desert bonus (except for one or two rare combinations of circumstance). Water mana provides another means to move a stack and by the time someone else summons Hyborem later burning sands should not be a problem.

The upgrade lines are interesting but you have to keep in mind that Malakim has hammer issue at the start of the game

I haven't really found this to be a problem in my non-AV Malakim games. Mining is pretty cheap to pick up compared to the mid-game techs the strategy relies on.

ALSO: If you fail to get mining before you're ready to build your first settler YOU WILL have issues building that settler...

I don't understand this comment. I haven't found problems with producing settlers. With a desert start the extra food from farmed floodplains goes to the settler. Non-Eberon starts are just like anyone else, of course.
 
Cabbagemeister: You're right about the lightbringer upgrade path. As long as you have a few units scattered around with Sentry you get the full benefit. It would be primarily for Mages as the Lightbringer-Savant upgrade is just a few gold and I think it's worth the cost to transfer the disciple advantages to the Mages. The only reason to use it extensively for Ritualists than that is if you're in a position to stockpile Savants before you can build Ritualists.
 
Cabbagemeister: You're right about the lightbringer upgrade path. As long as you have a few units scattered around with Sentry you get the full benefit. It would be primarily for Mages as the Lightbringer-Savant upgrade is just a few gold and I think it's worth the cost to transfer the disciple advantages to the Mages.

Couldn't you just do the Savant->Mage upgrade with built Savants instead of building Lightbringers? I thought that Tier-I Disciples units got the same nice promos as Lightbringers (except for Sentry, of course).
 
Couldn't you just do the Savant->Mage upgrade with built Savants instead of building Lightbringers? I thought that Tier-I Disciples units got the same nice promos as Lightbringers (except for Sentry, of course).

Yeah, you could and they do. I didn't express that well.

Since they are readily available and don't burn a promotion, you want to have a few sentry units around. The Lightbringer->Savant upgrade is dirt cheap (5 gold, iirc) because they cost the same number of hammers. You're going to upgrade from Savants to Mages while the other upgrade paths I outlined can start with Ritualists.

That means the logical place to pick up some sentry units is in the upgrade path to Mages. For the 5 gold conversion of Lightbringer-Savant you get sentry on your Mages. You can skip it if you don't think you need it but for the paltry expense I'll take it most of the time.
 
I wouldn't recommend converting until you have a few levels of the Altar of the Luonnatar, and also have a lot of life 1 adepts. Too bad the Altar itself doesn't keep hell away anymore...
 
Mages are not Disciple-type units and therefore receive no benefit whatsoever from Potency (which only provides XP to Disciple-type units, and, more specifically, only to units in the Priest line, not Disciple-type Heroes and whatnot). A minor hitch. The Malakim have been one of the best civs for the Veil and for summoning Hyborem (and switching) for a while.
 
Mages are not Disciple-type units and therefore receive no benefit whatsoever from Potency (which only provides XP to Disciple-type units, and, more specifically, only to units in the Priest line, not Disciple-type Heroes and whatnot). A minor hitch. The Malakim have been one of the best civs for the Veil and for summoning Hyborem (and switching) for a while.

That is incorrect.

The Potency promotion granted to disciples by the Spiritual trait is the same as the Potency promotion granted by Arcane to arcane units.

Unitcombat is irrelevant when it comes to whether a unit gets free xp. Any unit with <bFreeXP>1</bFreeXP> will get free xp from xp-granting promotions. Priests have this tag, and so do all arcane units.


Given how Spiritual can be exploited to give Mages the Potency promotion and that that is pretty much all the Arcane promotion does, I'm thinking that Arcane needs some new bonus. I think a research bonus would be good.
 
Eidolons: You should be able to hit Eidelons mid-game if you focus. Ritualists can, of course, be upgraded to Eidelons so they can benefit from all the promotion stacking from the disciple upgrade paths described above. Or if you have a highly promoted Diseased Corpse walking around, you can upgrade them as well. Medic and March are a really nice combo for keeping on the move, not to mention a Life mage in the stack casting Regenerate on top of that. 30% healing per turn while moving 2, with direct damage that bypasses city defense makes for a heck of a blitz. Picking up Command for the Eidolons should help out some with making sure you can garrison cities as you blitz as well. Since your Ritualists and Mages should be pounding down the enemy for the Eidelons to finish off, they can pick up Command fairly early.

Actually I've often debated with myself over whether to upgrade my ritualists to eidolons.
Pros: medic II, ability to cast ring of fire
Cons: -25% str from unholy taint
If I had an extra highly promoted ritualist that wasnt slated to become a high priest sometimes I would upgrade him to an eidolon. However, if I had a decent champion (esp with CR promos) I would definitely take him over the ritualist.
In the event that you have no promoted ritualists or champions lying around would you guys prefer to build an eidolon from scratch or to upgrade it from a ritualist (and suffer the -25% taint)?
 
mix it up, 1-2 upgraded from ritualists, the rest champions. Even though they've got the -25%, they're still a lot tougher than the ritualists, making sure they won't get taken out as easily.
 
Pros: medic II, ability to cast ring of fire
Cons: -25% str from unholy taint

Don't forget mobility. At one point priests upgraded to Paladins and Eidolons were getting the free XP as well, but I think that's gone now.

I thought taint was changed to -1S (instead of -25%)/+1 Unholy strength. so, it hurts you against good disciples and such but was otherwise a break even. Am I wrong on that?
 
Don't forget mobility. At one point priests upgraded to Paladins and Eidolons were getting the free XP as well, but I think that's gone now.

I thought taint was changed to -1S (instead of -25%)/+1 Unholy strength. so, it hurts you against good disciples and such but was otherwise a break even. Am I wrong on that?

I believe taint's -1str +1 unholy combat, increased spellcaster autogain experience rate, +10 spell dmg, -25% str (which hits eidolons kinda hard since they were meant to be heavy hitters, compared to medics/aoe spellcasters ritualists are used for)

Hmmm... I believe eidolons can get mobility promos too? Since they are disciple class iirc they get the mobility with spiritual as well?

Sometimes I just simply build an additional ritualist to tag along the eidolon to perform the same tasks w/o the 25% penalty. What do you guys think?
 
Very important to note: You won't even need to convert to AV to do that.

To upgrade Lightbringers / Savants to mages you just needs a temple of the veil and a mage-guild. :)
(Stigmata might be enough of a reason to found it, but no reason to hurry to get the tech or call Hyborem unless you want to play him.)

In the meantime the other Religions do allright for another main strat. :) (OO might be neat due to the worldspell. Empyrean might be neat if you go down the route to trade early... :) Fol if you have lots of forests around of course.)
 
I believe taint's -1str +1 unholy combat, increased spellcaster autogain experience rate, +10 spell dmg, -25% str (which hits eidolons kinda hard since they were meant to be heavy hitters, compared to medics/aoe spellcasters ritualists are used for)

You're probably right.

Hmmm... I believe eidolons can get mobility promos too? Since they are disciple class iirc they get the mobility with spiritual as well?

Disciple units only get the bonuses on creation. If you upgrade from the melee path they don't pick up Mobility. You could, of course, always build them from scratch.


Very important to note: You won't even need to convert to AV to do that.

To upgrade Lightbringers / Savants to mages you just needs a temple of the veil and a mage-guild. :)

A most excellent point that I hadn't considered. I tend to be very one-religion focused in my game plans.

Maybe it's time to reconsider. A religiously cosmopolitan Malakim could take advantage of other cross-line disciple upgrades, like making Medic Rangers with Move 3 and good starting XP out of Disciples of Leaves.
 
There was a thread some time ago on Malakim + Empy + Overcouncil. Get Chalid and the Malakim hero and you have 3 votes on the overcouncil (Malakim + 2 hero votes). Add Basium and you get a fourth. Then start adding vassals. For me the big drawback of the overcouncil is the potential banning of death or shadow mana, especially if you're getting either for free from a feature or holy city (you could capture nox noctis) -- if you're running the council, no problem! Get free trade routes, and maybe Public Healers before you have medicine.

The Malakim Empy strategy is well worth trying -- did it on .33 but have not tried it yet in .34.

And the Empy temples provide nifty bonuses.
 
Interesting, I'm not sure if you even need to get AV as your state religion to do the Bringer-Savant-Mage path.
 
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