Managing Greece

[prince_caspian]

Hi all, I am very new to Civ 5 and am looking for a way to win my 1st victory. I tried Greece on Chieftain level a few days ago and am pretty hooked with the concept of city states and diplomatic victory as I've won that way in Civ 3 before. But I'm not sure about city and army management. I gathered that founding/conquering cities will generate unhappiness which is bad and since the UA doesn't confer any bonuses for culture/science, it seemed to me that I should neither have too many cities or too little and I should probably have just enough numbers to deter enemies or help CSes. Would that be a correct approach? Looking forward to your suggestions.

 

[SirWozzel]

When you are going for a diplo victory you need only 2 things, LOTS of money, and a large enough army to fight of the inevitable attacks from other civs. As long as you can keep the majority of CS on your side and you don't get conquered you have a good chance of winning. Just keep enough cash flow to buy off the CS and try to prevent any other civs from getting cultural one so they have no chance of a victory from culture.
good luck

 

[bpower]

And probably the best way to get lots of money is conquer early and build trading posts in your puppets. Let your self-built cities focus on production.

 

[prince_caspian]

And probably the best way to get lots of money is conquer early and build trading posts in your puppets. Let your self-built cities focus on production.

Sorry but I'm not sure why puppets are better for money. Could you explain for a bit?

 

[The Pilgrim]

Sorry but I'm not sure why puppets are better for money. Could you explain for a bit?

Puppets automatically set on gold focus and prioritize commerce buildings. The only reasonable thing is to increase the output of those buildings by constructing trade posts around puppets and let cities to work them.

 

[civIII]

greece is pretty much made for a diplo win. Go for a hoplite/companion rush and conquer the closest 1-3 civs. Get puppets going in them and cruise to a diplo win with your massive gold amount. Patronage is a must for this, while honor, liberty, rationalism, and freedom can be a decent choice.

 

[Kaosprophet]

Puppets automatically set on gold focus and prioritize commerce buildings. The only reasonable thing is to increase the output of those buildings by constructing trade posts around puppets and let cities to work them.

Also, puppets don't increase the cost of social policies (or, I believe, national wonders) and come at the expense of a rival AI, which is what really makes them better for low-production high gpt cities than settling your own.

 

[prince_caspian]

Thanks for the newbie tips, this time I did much better though I didn't manage to build the UN required for a diplo win as it was already 2050. I rushed CC and hoplites and before AD (I think) already wiped out America and puppeted some of Egypt and Mongolia's cities on my continent so I think that somewhat sealed the fate of the game. After the game I realized why puppeting made a lot of sense for Greece - the money made it easy to gift CSes which in turn add culture, science via patronage and food for the puppets to grow and work more tiles. It's a cycle that I like so thanks so much for the tips!

 

[bhavv]

Honour and Patronage are definate must haves for Greece. Early rushing and spending into city states works best.

I'm not sure I'd bother with freedom for Greece though, Commerce would be better to increase GPT, with focusing the capital on gold output.

 

[Haig]

Remember that next month after the expansion using money to buy city-state favor isn't going to be as powerful anymore, so you'll need to come up with a bit new strategies then..

Of course Greece's UA and Patronage will help probably.

 

[bhavv]

Wow they are nerfing city state influence? It used to be how I started playing, then I found out how to win without spending on city states or RAs which is my preferred playstyle.

Back before maritime city states were needed the first time, I was a patronage addict.

 

[tetley]

I like to play raging barbarians and then farm the barb camps to get influence with the CS's, so I'm optimistic about the gold-CS-influence nerfing. What I am not so optimistic about, though, are all these missions CS's issue requesting you to take out another CS. I don't want to complete those missions--if I did, there wouldn't be any CS's left to ally with.

 

[bhavv]

I thought I'd try out Greece after reading this thread, starting right off on immortal difficulty, and I get a map like this:

Spoiler :

What do you in such a case? I have lots of city states, and space for 4 more decent coastal cities with lots of seafood, but there arent any nearby AI. Its also a pangaea map, and a very strange one at that.

Rather than focusing on early conquest, just turtle up with such a strong easily defensible location? Its a very good map for taking Liberty, Patronage, and Commerce. I want to start it again though because I opened honour first, and I dont need that at all on this map.

Heres my progress up to 160 AD with a save file attached:

Spoiler :

The mountainous isolation gave me no need for any military at all, I focused on settling my coastal patch of land with 5 cities, and focused on building monuments, granary, lighthouse, library, colosseums and currently markets.

I also managed to build TGL and Colossus in my capital very late after training 4 settlers and several work boats, but Machu Pichu was taken the turn after I finished of the Liberty branch so I couldnt rush it in one of my mountainside cities. Instead I used up the liberty GE on Hagia Sophia, and have a second GE waiting to rush Notre Dame.

Im going to focus Athens on producing Great Merchants, conduct trade missions and dump the gold into City States, being a small map theres only 12 of them anyway.

So far I spent 2000 gold into both cultural states I had found, I would hopefully like to be able to fill Patronage and most of Commerce on this map at least.

 

[prince_caspian]

Yeah it seemed kinda weird that the map generator would place you in an isolated coast/mountain area. You'll have to be allies with Warsaw - there's no horses in your area which sucks. I think you'll definitely have to play defensively by using the CSes as buffers in case Iroquois attacks and pump some hoplites and save the CCs you can build from Warsaw's horses for offense? My newbie instincts say restart.

 

[bhavv]

Iroquois did attack, but I have 7 allied city states already and they provided plenty of distraction:

Spoiler :

All my cities finished markets and aqueducts, plus a couple of universities. Currently I'm getting harbors built to replace my roads and boost production before finishing off the rest of my universities, then I need workshops and banks.

Why start this game again? This start location is uber, loads of fish, pearls to sell, and Atols, an no one can attack me

I have the top two policies in Patronage done, then I'm taking the science boosting one before opening commerce and taking the left side of that.

If I ally Sidon too, that completely blocks of Hiawatha, but its a military city state and I focused on buying all the cultural, and maritime ones first. My trireme got killed by barbs so Im getting another one done to explore the north coast line and look for more CCs.

Also you dont want to waste time with any land units here, the trireme I just completed was all I needed to take out Hiawathas invasion force because theirs only a single hex pass to my land on both sides. He embarked loads of crap, my trireme killed it all for free, LOL.

Heres the 4000 BC initial save if anyone wants to give it a go, its a super easy map for Immortal difficulty.

 

[RedRover57]

I think your problem is that you have neglected science. I have found that science is the key to EVERY victory condition, with one exception. That exception would be the case where you can win a very quick domination victory by beelining and then mass producing a dominant early unit, e.g., keshiks, Mand. cavs, samurai, etc. In the case of a unit like keshiks you can often run a standard pangaea type map by around T150-T170 with just the keshiks (plus one horseman to cap cities), so science is not really needed past Chivalry.

For all other victories, particularly those that require going deep into the tech tree, it is best not to neglect science as establishing a tech advantage over the AI is hugely important, not just for better troops (since you can get away with less troops if you have better tech) but also to get to the later wonders quicker.

In your game above, which is set up for a turtle-type strategy due to the isolation, I would have settled 4 cities ASAP (full Liberty tree), built the NC and then universities in all cities by about T120 at the latest. Focus on growth with a maritime CS ally or 2 (and probably a cultural ally as well), but no need to go overboard with CS allies yet. Build your empire and economy, set up RA's, build the important wonders (HS, PT, HG if possible), create GS's, blast your way up the tech tree and then later when your economy is cranking you can buy up all the CS, probably after taking out a neighbor or 2 for puppets and trading posts to further boost your gold. A tech advantage will make this strategy easy - you can easily have artillery and rifles (maybe even infantry) before T200 and run over the hapless AI who will likely still have mostly longswords, pikeman and maybe cannons on Immortal difficulty or below.

 

[bhavv]

I have several research pacts signed atm, and science is catching up by buying more city states including military ones. I was slowed down along the middle path by having to tech optics very early to bring my captured workers back, and then astronomy.

Both my mountainside cities had universities built and 2 scientist specialists being worked asap, and they will be building observatories next. Those are my science focused cities, my capital needed to build every workboat, 3 triremes and a caravel too, and has also completed a university a bit later. My last two cities are very production poor, and all my gold is going into every city state.

It would have been even slower if I also needed land defense

I'll see how the rest of the game goes and start again if I lose.

Buying the cultural city states first got me the top two and middle left policies in patronage a lot quicker, and I really need more production next from the commerce left side.

 

[tetley]

Even the early domination victory is all about science. When I did that as Rome and Germany, their early conquest is what offset the difficulty level and gave me the science edge. I have more science simply because I have more cities.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Agree with previous posters. You'd better invest into RA's than into CS's. Scholasticism simply cannot give you as much as RA's would. And at this point you won't go far by your own raw science. Whether you go for diplomacy or any other win you still need to progress through the tech tree. Cash comes easier than beakers. First get to the modern era then worry about money. With substantial tech lead you'll be able to finance your allies by plunder money and puppets.

 

[bhavv]

I'll try it again then, but I want to finish this game off first.