Maya Immortal - Do I need a 4th city here and where to place it ?

[dragonxxx]

Just started my first immortal game.
Doesn't look too good, but its not perfectly bad. I am a bit slow with the NC, but the cap doesn't have many hammers. I placed 3 cities in somewhat good locations (all on rivers and hills with many lux nearby). Did miss 2 mountains tho, but I read that hills and rivers are more imporant heh


So, now I have a dilemma - do I need the 4th and if yes, where exactly.
Options:

1) In the north in the secluded space near the coast - there is Citrus nearby and a Deer, and basicly thats it - some hills, some tundra and ocean (with no fish). Basicly the best spot will have 5 hills, 1 plains, grassland, citrus and Deer. Thats only 9 workable tiles in 3 rings and that some of them overlap with the cap. I kinda think that option will bring nothing ...

2) South of Palenque there is one hill, who could form nice triangle with tikal. Problem is - it only has cotton, and I got already 5 of these. But its surrounded by grassland and the city should grow very fast + I will fill the space that way + Cotton Monopoly.

3) North of Chichen Itza for 2 more Copper in the Hilly area - there is not much food there tho, and will piss Russia off.

4) South of Chichen Itza - there is Uluru, Gems (next to CS but not claimed yet, can steal it with GG anyway) and a Mountain (I can settle on the hill between the Wine and Horse). This one seems best, but the theritory becomes way too Wide (it already is), and this city will be like 20 tiles away from the cap ...

The current status of the game : I got 4 DOF (Russia, Portugal, Ethiopia and India).
Hit the long count on turn 86, so I already have an Academy running. Entered Medeaval first, technologically seems ok - England has only 3 techs more and I am 5th in literacy. Shoshones seem to be willing to fight someone, I guess I should point em at England, as they are close.

I can still found religion soon ( got faith from Quarries. That was wrong I guess, but I have 3 of these. Still DF would have been way way better, but I didn't see it in the list initially (thought its gone) and later I noticed that it still there.

Currently researching Civil Service (need 3 more turns) and things with the growth should improve a lot as well.


But, yeah ... That 4th city ? Do I need it at all I am wondering. I suppose I can pull off a SV with 3 cities, but its way way easier do manage things with 4 ...

Any comments are gladly received

P.S. Its not visible, but to the west there is a mountain wall from the ocean to Wittemberg (south of it). The only passage is trough the Palenque valley.

 

[joshua43214]

ummm, ya really late on the NC. What have you been building? I see only three workers, and a late NC...

You forward settled on Cathy twice, she will pretend to like you, bat her eyes at you then stab you in the back. Not that you had much option for expansion, but...

You are lucky you have this many unique lux's, if I settled a 4th city, I would be inclined to tuck it out of the way in a nice growth spot. You already have plenty of hammers in three cities, and 4th high food low hammer city will be nice, you just have to buy stuff.

Cathy will give you some time usually, so get education then get down to X-Bows and cripple her when the DoW comes. She is one of the hardest civs to beat late in the game.

 

[dragonxxx]

Well, I didn't build a worker. Stole 2 from Wittemberg and one from Portugal (she is west from Wittemberg). I wasn't building much, I just had no money to buy 2 libraries, as there were hell lot of barbs, that were constantly pillaging my cotton plantations. So I had to wait the library in Tikal to finish itself. Other than that - built just one setller, granary, some atlantist , library, Pyramid. And while waiting prebuilt 50% of National Epic.

About Cathy - well ... she placed St. Petersburg to the east on a dumb spot way before I was even ready to settle Tikal. She then offered DOF, and we even renewed it. So shouldn't be a problem for now. She never complained about forward settling btw. We had DOF at that time but still, I think the AI still complains, no?

Soo , yeah grass terain city and will probably steal the Gems from Florence with the general to even things up I guess

 

[joshua43214]

Cathy will never complain, she will just smile and offer a DoF. She is very cunning.

Ahhh, you build units and pyramids...

I would be inclined to go granary>library>pyramid in 1st city
then library>granary>pyramid in my next two.
That's just me though. You will still probably get your pick for religions unless the religious civs are in the game, then you won't no matter what you do.

You also need to build some workers. I pretty much always start with scout/scout/shrine/worker/library or scout/scout/shrine/worker/settlers.../library

I try to steal 3 - 5 from the AI too

 

[dragonxxx]

well, I started scout - monument - atlantist (as a 2nd scout) - pyramid - settler - library or something like that. I have 4 workers atm, maybe will need one more. 5 should be enough, most of the space for the smaller cities is improved already anyway.

For the expansions - library, granary. yes, but I had to buy one as it was kinda late for building the library.


Ethiopia is in the game and not far, also India ... And one of my cities already is converted to russian religion. All religious buildings are gone - guess swords to plowshares or +15% production is the only good founder belief that is left. Thats still better than just plant the prophet I suppose? That way I am gonna keep the 4FPT from the two quarries near Palenque.

Next long count should be in a few turns as well - any suggestions?

1) Prophet + plant (as it seems rather pointless to enhance)
2) GG - steal Gems and some tiles from Florence
3) GE - and save it for Pisa ? Petra is not gone, but for 4-5 Tiles in Tikal (except the plain desert) that seems weak ... Still its bonus caravan as well and some Engineer point?
4) Artist or Writer for some early tourism.
Merchant should be avoided at all cost as far as I know, Admiral seems not good for Pangea.
Hm ...

 

[dragonxxx]

Cathy's religion is not bad btw :

+1 Happingess from temples
+1 food from camps
Monasteries (very nice in Chichen Itza)
Jesuit Education - that one allows me to buy univercity for 150-200 faith, right?

but also has Just War ... +20% combat next to enemy city with that religion.

 

[Tachii]

I see a good city between Florence and Wittenburg. With the sheep/cotton/horse/river. The tile SW to the horse. The one NW is also good.

 

[dragonxxx]

I see a good city between Florence and Wittenburg. With the sheep/cotton/horse/river. The tile SW to the horse.

Well, I am thinking to settle on the sheep, as its on the hill and also river. And I will have plenty of space to grow the borders. The hill on the west of it is surrounded by plains and is not on river

 

[Tich]

If you Settle on the sheep you lose a Wheat and a Cotton. Doesn't seem worthwhile to me personally. That being said this seems like a no-brainer to me. Grab the Uluruu + Gems spot with a mountain. Wouldn't even think twice about it myself. Might even be able to buy your way to the Bananas.

Chichen Itza should have been 1 tile to the east. Would have gotten you 2 Copper, 1 Wheat and a mountain. You are severely underestimating the power of Observatories if you think that you're better off with a Water Mill + Garden + 1 hammer. Mountains are better than just about everything. You're never going to work a Wine tile anyways so you may as well get the gold and bonus science.

 

[homegrown]

I agree. Observatories are much more important on Immortal. You don't need all 3 of your expo cities on mountains, but if you can get one or two, it's a huge boost to science allowing you to possibly explore other policies besides full rationalism.

 

[dragonxxx]

If you Settle on the sheep you lose a Wheat and a Cotton. Doesn't seem worthwhile to me personally. That being said this seems like a no-brainer to me. Grab the Uluruu + Gems spot with a mountain. Wouldn't even think twice about it myself. Might even be able to buy your way to the Bananas.

Chichen Itza should have been 1 tile to the east. Would have gotten you 2 Copper, 1 Wheat and a mountain. You are severely underestimating the power of Observatories if you think that you're better off with a Water Mill + Garden + 1 hammer. Mountains are better than just about everything. You're never going to work a Wine tile anyways so you may as well get the gold and bonus science.

The Wheat is in the 3rd ring so I do not lose it, and the cotton ... Well I will have it eventually at some point, its not like I need 7 Cottons, I will have the other 6 and noone can settle in that triangle. Exept that the city there will grow pretty fast, I think its good idea to get it before the Shoshone place a city there too As the AI is not that picky, heh.

But about Chichen Itza, I think that that spot on the mountain is clearly inferior because that tile you talk about is on flat land and no river. And also, the 4 flood plains tiles become far, so I will have to buy em off. And there is no really good food in that part except these. And my reasoning for the hills is not really the extra hammer, but the better defensive position. If I go to SV, the most important thing is to have observatory in the capital as I am gonna plant all academies there anyway, so secondary observatories are not that good. I mean - I know that I am gonna have some BPT less than with it, but I really think its a good trade off in that position.

And also, stealing the Gems from Florence and some good land is better than some extra copper I think (I already have copper in Tikal).

And about the Uluru - I can probably make 5th city there, but I really doubt thats worth the effort, given the fact that I am not gonna be able to make strong religion. And I will be vulnerable from all directions as a bonus, thats the thing that I do not like here.

 

[MarshalN]

Sounds to me like you should just use the Russian religion. Jesuit education is no joke, and with your wine monasteries is nice, I don't think you can beat that yourself.

I would second the Uluru city. It's one of the best wonders - and with Jesuit education the Uluru will help you pump out those schools. There is also gems which will pay for the extra city in happiness. Other than the fur in the north I don't see any more unique luxes

Oh and using her religion might help keep her happy if that's what you want

 

[FrostK]

-Location near Uluru on hill with wheat near by seems a dream - you should have grabbed long ago.
-You took faith from quarries? Why then you didnt build them? (You have +8faith=6 from pyramids and 2 from cs)
-Caravans are good. There must be reason for having only one on turn 100.
-I think the best opening here was liberty with 5-6 cities. You have minimum 6 diff. lux here, so you can really settle that cities very fast without having any problems with smiles.
- Settling on river is not important for secondary cities at all. What it gives? Possibility to build garden, water mill and hedro plant? you can safely leave without them
- Settling on hills is good idea, but u can also settle on lux to get fast gold income.

 

[dragonxxx]

Do you really think, that this city next to Uluru (that late) is a good idea? I am forward settling that way to both Spain and Shoshone and will gain a faith giving NW without having a reasonable religion.

In case I know that everyone will be happy with me and don't attack - then good, but what if I piss the Shoshone off that way? I cannot mount a good defence as its way too far away from the capital ...

About the quarries - I simply didn't have the time for them because of the barbarians, and I also wanted to hit the long count ASAP (so didn't have masonary for a while).

 

[Txurce]

It sounds like you are understandably overly cautious in your first Immortal game. Taking that into consideration, I would build where you want to: south of Palenque. It's a good enough spot and, as you noted, a fourth city will speed your SV. (If you get lucky, a fifth city in the next 30-50 turns will then seem inoffensive to your neighbors.)

By the way, while having no NC yet is sub-optimal, it's by no means a problem. Your DoF's, on the other hand, are a huge asset that you ought to try to keep, and will work (in this game) with your cautious approach. My bet is you win a SV going away.

 

[dragonxxx]

Yeah, we will see what happens tonight. I did pause that game, because it seems that this is probably the most crucial decision I have to make. So I wanted to read what the others have to say about it

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

 

[kb27787]

Uluru calls I'd get one more city there after you finish NC... right on that hill adjacent to the mountain and horse. Pretty defensible too.

Worst comes to the worst, if you see someone is about to attack it, just sell it to someone else. No need to commit to that city that much, just treat it as a couple extra temples.

 

[dragonxxx]

Well ... T275 Diplo , followed by T279 Science (I won the vote when I researched the last tech for the engine) ... Next time should just disable diplo victory I guess. But its interesting when Alex is on the map.

Settled that Hill, and it became very nice city Stole the Gems from Florence.
Went to Education, then Machinery. Got Notre Dam (+10 happiness stuff) with the GE from the long count, as I was around 0 when I made the city.

Founded religion after all and even enhanced it - swords to plowshares, faith from wonders, 50 faith per GP expended and Tithe. Kept it for the capitol only, it did very good job

Then went for Astronomy. Because of that England became first host of the congress, and also made Pisa and Forbidden Palace. She also settled the Uluru after I closed all my borders (she wanted to settle in the middle between my 4 cities I think (at least thats where she was headed).

Finally at some point got the Consulates and the Culture started rolling and I was basicly unstoppable after it. Especially after Elizabeth denounced me out of the blue (she was culture leader), I did same, and shortly after she had 4 DOWs from my friends Then I passed the World Ideology for Order, and that was it. Cathy was only 3-4 techs behind when I got plastics, but she couldnt handle the thousand GS I bulbed around 20 turns later.

Ended up with just a few wonders (first time I have so few, but it was really not needed to have more. I could make 4-5 of the late wonders, but skipped em).

ONly these at the end:

Hagia Sophia (did very good job, basicly +13 FPT and some culture).
Machu Pickchu
Notre Damm
Hubble
Eifel Tower
Porcelain Tower

It should be noted, that my theritory contained 0 Coal, 0 Aluminium, 0 Uranium, and only one Oil plant in the 5th ring of my 4 city ... And only one CS had 3 Aluminium. If there was not, I'd probably have to delay the victory by a lot of turns, as the Hydro Plants in the 3 non-capital cities made huge difference.