OK lets break it down. Note, the following is an opinion only and if I sound confrontational its not intended, that's just how I write. Thanks for putting in the time to think of the original ideas!
1. Angels & Manes ideas
Fun:
- Allowing angels to fly! This only makes sense... and would have to be accompanied by a movement increase. Would also be cool to allow angels to rest/recover in mountains. This may increase their survivability.
- I can see manes being used to enhance units, but only standard military units. IE the demon can possess any mortal unit to give it a bonus, but a demon possessing another demon or an undead doesn't thematically work.
- Conversion is both fun and a fail. Its a good mechanic for getting angels & manes from generic combat since you actually NEED angels and manes for the civ to work and although the civ your fighting is neutral, individual units may be personally good or evil so a standard percent to become an angel or manes with ANY death makes sense.
Yeah i'm just trying to make the factions MORE manes/angles focused.
Fail:
- Manes used to purchase tech, this is unnecessary since Infernals already have a significantly flexible specialist build. Thematically, it also doesn't work. How does a jr demon teach you some new skill?
The goal here was to boost manes some since i was denying Hyborem other cities outside a capital. (Effectively) Any other ideas on how to boost manes usefullness are welcomed.
- Drafting 3 units from any order city? That means a single angel flying through an Order 10-city civ can instantly get 30 units. Thats insane. Even if there isn't any unhappiness, its overpowered... if there is unhappiness its even more messed up since you can screw over an entire civ without penalty. If they get pissed enough to declare war, you win again with free angels. In addition, thematically it wouldn't make sense for a unit that follows ORDER, which is essentially a religion that worships UNQUESTIONING OBEDIENCE, to abandon its post because a pretty angel flies by.
1. Typically these are "allies" of Basium that are being 'harvested' for units. This means, thematically, over-all, it's a trade. Your ally is less able to fight a prolonged war, since you just yanked a lot of his populace, but you can fight an immediate war now. The numbers could be adjusted for balance. This function should be 'self-balancing'.
2. Thematically it makes sense that the Angels are incarnations of Order. So "do what I say" Orderites are following the orders of the angel - "Come fight now." That makes sense to me at least.
- Why should an angel have the ability to enter enemy territory? The inability to enter enemy territory isn't necessarily physical... nothing physically stops a warrior from walking across the border. What's stopping the unit is the game mechanic representing the fact that an enemy seeing your military unit in their border is going to take that as an act of war. This includes enemy angels flying over your cities.
This was to allow the previous mechanic. Angels entering friendly, but closed-boardered Order-Good allies so that they could get units from their cities.
- Siphoning energy doesn't really make a lot of sense. Thematically, there is the knowledge to cast spells + the mana required to allow you to cast it. Just because you have the mana it doesn't mean you suddenly know how to cast the spell. I do support giving them standard priest spells though, that makes sense. IE cure disease and heal. Bless would also make sense as a free spell.
This was an invented mechanic to give the angels yet another tool at their disposal that wasnt strictly combat. Since I'm effectively trying to use a whole new level of resource, i was trying to intuit how they could be different from manes, fit thematically (being spellcasters) but not require any of the normal means of achieving spell casting - but still allowing for diversity.
And thematically - Angels are different, they're not moral. The primal energies that spells function on may be bread and butter to angels. They need not access it the same way mortals do. Essentially, the "how" of it could easily be explained if need be. I just didnt take time to suss that out.
- Conversion is a fail because it doesn't make sense that being killed by an angel suddenly makes you good aligned. If anything it would make you feel resentment and anger and become a manes. A more reasonable mechanic would simply be to make any living neutral unit death have say a 20% chance to show up as an angel or manes representing the idea that although the civ is neutral, the way individual units lead their lives can fall on the side of good or evil.
Again themes that "can" be sussed out. Here I envision either side making a bargin before the 'final blow.' We see this in good horror or 'epic' flicks all the time. Before the killing blow the Angel grants a reprieve in mercy. The life is still taken but the soul redeemed. Basically think of all those "Last great speeches" before a final blow. This works both ways, of course. We just dont see these little epics in motion, becuase we've the god's vew, instead of the passerby.
Not discussed:
- Manes can already purchase units and buildings since they can be sacrificed for shields.
- Commando promo was already covered. Fly vs Commando, I prefer fly. Raiders also already gives commando and is useful for produced non-angelic units.
I was unsure how the 'fly' mechanic works. I thought it was simply a "gets a movment = 1 on all squares". This means in opposing territories, movement is reduced to nominal, and cant use roads. But for friendlies - roads would be used. If flying units dont use roads ever anyway, then it's moot - but again, i was unsure of how it worked.
2. Start and Play style
Fun:
- There should not be any unhappiness or unhealthiness in the Mercurian capital city. That makes sense since you're surrounded by healing/curing angels flying around.
- Why would happyfaces create food? Why would health bonuses add food? The benefit of no unhealthiness and no unhappiness is that you don't need to waste shields building those buildings in the first place.
Was trying to invent a mechanic that was different from the infernals - would fit thematically, and still make the capital a powerhouse.
Essentially everything makes the capital bigger - which allows it to house more specialists - which would form the core of any "production" the city would need to have.
Also - more than likely the Mercurian capital will be a
already existing city. This city would have buildings that alloted for happiness and health - i just sought to not 'nerf' the city when the mercurians come.
If you've a better idea of how to reach the 'powerhouse' but 'different than infernals' for the capital - i admit this one is rough, and i'd like to hear it.
- I don't see any need for the new specialists for the Mercurians. See the big picture themes below... they're a cooperative civ and should be cooperating with their summoners. The angel as a specialist doesn't thematically make sense. That'd be like making a specialist called "Female". An angel isn't a job its just what they are.
Well then name it something else. I dont really care what it's "called" only that angels could provide something directly to the city. Manes can add directly to population - which can be steared to do anything. I sought to make "Angels adding to population" of the Capital more restrictive - but still beneficial.
Maybe instead of special citizenry, the Mercurians may just have unlimited specialists of all kinds? Then it becomes player choice.
I still think angels need to add something "Directly to the city" as manes can - so that they're also sources of production and not just soldiers. How doesnt really concern me. My idea was specialists.
How about "Divine Tutor" as a specialist name? That's just an angel settling in the city and teaching others - Gives +3 Science +2 Hammers and +1 XP or something.
3. Capital city bout
Fun:
- Nothing
Fail:
- This whole section is mostly a fail. Thematically it IS similar to the Kurio no matter how much you say it isn't. Small numbers of cities, useless conquered cities.
- I can't figure out any point of the ley lines. They only give 5 units for a conquered city? If I conquer a size 30 kurio city, I get 5 freakin units? I get that they affect the armageddon counter but if I'm playing a neutral civ, I HATE the idea that there's nothing I can do to affect the armageddon counter so I'm just waiting for one side or the other to win... or have to try and take them both on.
- Alternately, I lose my city to the mercurians and the whole place is trashed with no way of getting it back?
This is all nit-pickery.
I'm NOT providing "sum total final ideas". I"m providing brainstorming. Thematics (mechanically), design notations, etc.
This was just one way i could concieve of - for changing the "how" of the compact-factions.
It is NOT similar to the Kuriotates because the Kuriotates should have to juggle all the normal city processes - they just get 3 big rings of fun to do it in.
The Uber-Capital-Extraveganza is a departure from concentration on the City and focus on the other resources. Really they're just collection points for the grand battle. Angels/manes are the resources, more important than the meager food/trade/hammers output of the city. The city is providing, essentially - support troops, science, and a base of opperations. That was the goal in the idea. If this can be achieved some other way, or at least the "feel of the play" of the civ - then i'm all for it. This was just one way of accomplishing that goal.
Focus =/ Sameness. Yes you focus on "one city." So in that, it's the same as the Kuriotates. But its NOT in that you sholdnt be focusing on the city - you should be focusing on the roving bands of angels/manes - what they're being thrown in for, and the other insundry processes of war.
4. Ultimate consequences / New Armageddon counter rules
Fun:
- I sorta like the 0 or 100 victory condition. 0 may be strong since there's no real benefit from being at 0 armageddon counter and thematically it doesn't make sense especially if there are still AV cities and hyborem around... but at 100 the world is essentially blowing itself up so it should be just a matter of time for the infernals to mop up. Thematically it doesn't make sense for a 0 to be an instant win because they must always be on guard for evil to spread again, but I could buy a 100 being an instant win.
- I sort of like the idea where if all evil is eliminated, then Basium leaves the mortal realm and all his cities go to his ally. Alternately, the infernals are at war with everyone so they would never go away.
- If one side or the other gets eliminated a standard golden age for the opposite team is appropriate. IE if the mercurians get eliminated, all AV civs and the infernals get a golden age. If the Infernals get eliminated, the mercurians and their allies get a golden age.
Fail:
- All this talk of permanent golden age. No permanent golden ages. This is basically an instant win. Every age has an end... when future generations no longer believe history or just consider it all to be myth.
- The 100AC penalties are unnecessary. With everyone else losing 1/2 their population and rampant unit damage, Hyborem already has a huge advantage. If you're going to give him crazy bonuses you might as well just end the game.
- Why wouldn't AV cities also have unhappiness? They're not looking to end the world like the Sheaim are, they're just all selfish and out for themselves. Usually that doesn't include widespread pestilence and their own death.
This was thrown in rough-shod becuase I felt like there needed to be real consquences for conquering. I didnt want "all razing" since it was only the "capital" which is really needed. Admitedly this could be better - and was only meant to inspire or flush out (poorly) something for people to look at.
I'm completely ambivilant to that section.
Big-picture themes to keep in mind:
This is how I believe the 2 civs are intended to work, thematically:
The infernals basically don't care about anyone else. They want to rule to world. Their cities dont' require food with the idea being that they're self contained. They are the ultimate specialist civ (where the sidar is the ultimate great specialist civ) because they can have 100% specialists with each city producing culture/shields/cash/research as necessary.
Agreed in part. I dont think they "must" be specialist run. And i know that the AI doesnt play them as such. You're not wong, but i dont think they're limited just to specialists.
The Mercurians are a cooperative civ. They form an alliance with another civ and work together to stamp out evil. In theory, the mercurians are the military branch of the cooperative and the allied civ is the research branch.
Agreed in part.
That seems all well and good on paper - but as we can see, it's a hinderance to both military and scientific endeavors - therefor it needs reworking.
I figure that if the "good-aligned" civ sacrifices one city - which becomes the powerhouse of divine might of their now permanent ally - that it beneifts the primary civ regardless. One could stay primary or switch to baisum - or AI's will "just" benefit.
All in all ilt should be a "win-win" to produce Basium if that route (and therefor the time and effort) is taken. I do not feel it is like this now - hence all these ideas.
In practice, their combined research takes a huge hit because of the alliance penalty and the late start of the Mercurians make them a liability plus the original civ loses a city. One easy way to solve this would be to eliminate the ally penalty. In a long enough game, if the Mercurians start conquering like crazy the whole alliance gets an unnatural boost... but in practice the game rarely gets to this point. I think eliminating the penalty would go a long way in helping the Mercurians.
Agreed. As said above.
Thank you for your insightful analysis! Keep it up.
-Qes
![[to_xp]Gekko](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/74/74677.jpg?1475248346){kind=avatar}
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from each kill they make. Then you can drive your entire economy through war alone (since 
will be hard to come by with the single city, until you have managed to get up to size 300 or whatnot)
and 2 
per turn per 2 happiness in Basium's Capital. The culture would focus on that point - it wouldnt go to the capital - this is a means only of expanding boarders. (remember this is pillageable)
