Middle-Earth:Lord of the Mods (XI)

[mrtn]

Mithadan, I never meant he was religious per se, just that those traits fit from a game point of view. But if people scream for industrious I won't quarrel. Much...

@the mormegil: the speed isn't the problem, the animation itself is. Think of it as running in a very tight long skirt... The steps are too short.

Mithadan: I suggest the French peasant

No no, I suggested that! But if you agree with me I won't quarrel.

The french farmer is in the lead...

 

[AlcTrv]

Originally posted by mrtn
The french farmer is in the lead...

...oh wait, the German farmer has crossed his border riding a very efficient cow! The French farmer has run home to his house, found a surrender document, and is waiting with a pen at the door for the German! The German peasant now has taken over the French Peasant, his land and his votes!

Sorry, can't resist after French classes (DAMN LES FRANCAIS!)


But yeah, sci/ind

 

[Sarevok]

Originally posted by PCHighway


What should Isengards civ traits be?

Who wants Scientific and Militaristic?

Who wants Scientific and Religious?

Who wants Scientific and Industrious?

Who wants some other combination?

(Edit, got you The Last Conformist, added Ind.)

I think they should be Sci/Ind.

As I had said a few months ago, when you get this mode done or at least in its closing stages, PM me. Id be more than happy to help with a scenario.

 

[[Ant]Wimp]

Sci/Ind it is then?

 

[The Last Conformist]

That conclusion seems inescable. Has PCH voted?

 

[the mormegil]

I don't think so, but unless he has a veto vote it won't count for anything. So far it's been unanimous.

 

[PCHighway]

The Last Conformist: Yes, mrtn and I both proposed our side of the argument. I proposed Sci\Mil, mrtn proposed Sci\Rel. Neither of us wanted an excess of Militaristic civs (which probably drove Mrtn to choose Religious) but I figured Militaristic would be better than Religious.
I have no problems with Scientific and Industrial, but two things to bear in mind: 1.) How helpful would it be for a 1-4 city civilization? 2.) The only other civ that has the Industrial attribute is the Dwarves.

THE HOBBITS

1st Era Offensive
Defense: 2
Movement: 1
Shields: 25
Extra: +0HPB

2nd Era Offensive
Attack: 5
Defense: 2
Movement: 1
Shields: 45
Extra: +0HPB

3rd Era Offensive
Attack: 8
Defense: 4
Movement: 1
Shields: 60
Extra: +0HPB

4th Era Offensive
Attack: 10
Defense: 7
Movement: 1
Shields: 75
Extra: +0HPB

1st Era Defender
Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Movement: 1
Shields: 15
Extra: +0HPB

2nd Era Defender
Attack: 2
Defense: 4
Movement: 1
Shields: 35
Extra: +0HPB

3rd Era Defender
Attack: 3
Defense: 5
Movement: 1
Shields: 50
Extra: +0HPB

4th Era Defender
Attack: 4
Defense: 7
Movement: 1
Shields: 70
Extra: +0HPB


3rd Era Missile
Attack: 9
Defense: 4
Movement: 1
Shields: 70
Extra: 0 Range Bombard(8)

4th Era Missile
Attack: 11
Defense: 6
Movement: 1
Shields: 80
Extra: 0 Range Bombard(10)

The Logic: Since the Hobbits actually did not become how we remember them until the 3rd age (for gameplay purposes the 3rd era in our mod) it would serve us in many ways to make them simply have mediocre (at best) units until this time. Many people believe that the Hobbits should be able to take over the world if it is in their power. Tolkien had it so that the Hobbits, the weakest of race, were ignored because they posed no threat. Unfortunately, in civ3 terms weakness equates to a ripe fruit waiting to be picked. Thus I believe we should make this civ a 'boom' civilization. Give it twice as many buildings after the 3rd era, make them able to build 'outposts' earlier, give them cheaper upgrade-able workers and settlers that have a defense bonus. The downside is that their first government would require 2 gpt for units, while the second government alleviates this problem.

If this route seems feasible, the question now is "How do we make them able to survive to the 3rd era?" well, I offer something drastic. Why not make all their non-combat units invisible? Now you are probably thinking I'm insane at this point, but bear with me. In civ3 terms invisibility does not equate to the unit actually being invisible (i.e. Submarines). We would then assume that these units are able to hide, and now invisibility equates to camouflage. This would be how we could make the Hobbits go unnoticed, and since we have upgrade-able workers and settlers, once the civilization is 'booming' (3rd era) these units loose their invisibility in a world which is forcing them to be part of it.

Since these units are now surprisingly powerful, how would they be combated? Well, we could give certain units from certain civs the detect invisible option. This would actually add much more depth to the game. Imagine, that Wargs from Angmar could see the Hobbit workers and settlers; Bullroarer Took anyone? Or how the Nazgul could see said units. Or the later Elves could see them? We could give Arnor and Rohan the ability to see them from the outset. The possibilities open wide enough to add more depth to the game in a balanced way.

The only minor problem I see is that the AI would escort the settlers with a spearman 80% of the time.

Another (more dangerous) idea I've been musing over is to make the workers upgrade to a 'militia' unit, with "just ok" all around defense\offense. The worker-militia then could upgrade back to a worker. Both would cost the same in shields so it would be free, but the militia itself would not be build-able. The problem as usual would be the AI. Would the AI upgrade the workers if it was in danger, or needed more combat units? Would the AI upgrade to something that costs the same in shields? This idea seems implausible thanks to the AI. But still we may want to entertain the idea, as we could always give the AI bonuses when playing as the Hobbits via the player properties and make this feature simply open to the human player. It could not be overly exploited, because hobbit workers themselves could cost a fairly hefty amount.

Sarevok- I have been working on a private Beta MSN groups page, when it is done I'll post how to get in there on this thread. I will PM you to alert you of the post.

 

[Foehammer]

Excellent work going into this but let me lend some of my knowledge:

Remember that the Lord of the Rings was written by Tolkien as the lost Saga of Britain. Middle-Earth IS an early Britain, Ireland region that has undergone many landmass changes previous to the incarnations we now see as islands in our modern world.

When dealing with the Easterlings and Southrons, keep this in mind. We aren't talking about ANY tribes from southern Africa, as we are almost assuredly dealing with far more propinquitous tribes from the ancient lands of Eastern Europe/Germany/Russia (Easterlings) and the Southrons probably are comprised almost entirely of tribes from the Mediterranean region -- pre-Egpytians, Sumerians, Phoenicians, etc.

One interesting point that I just realized from reading up this thread a bit, that the Southrons are noted for having scarlet banners, tents, clothing, etc. -- this would make perfect sense. You see, if they come from the region I'm guessing then the use of bright dyes would be a given. The Phoenicians were literally named by the Greeks "people of the purple dye."

Another thing to take into consideration: the Corsairs of Umbar (from the SOUTH) being the most notable sailors is no coincidence. The tribes from the Mediterranean were amongst the most advanced sailors of the ancient world, and foremost amongst these were, once again, the Phoenicians!

Fascinating, eh?

If you approach the creation of units from this vantage things take on a whole new light of clarity, imho.

Think of Middle-Earth as predating our most ancient historical knowledge and it kind of "fits" naturally on its own.

I think I mistakenly posted about some name clarifications on an older thread. Sorry about that -- I wish some admin would start locking these things when appropriate.

The hard work involved on this Mod is appreciated and I look forward to trying it out soon. In the meantime, I will attempt to offer my knowledge of Tolkien to help things along when I can.

 

[PCHighway]

Welcome (back?) Foehammer. I agree about locking the threads, but for some inexplicable reason they won’t give any of us that ability!
I hear you about the ‘missing’ English mythology, but I believe is goes farther than that. Don’t forget that Tolkien himself was born in South Africa (while still under The Empire) and he has related his relatively small amount of time there into his books. Tolkien was bitten by a poisonous tarantula back when living in South Africa, and survived because his nanny sucked out the poison in time. You can see how much giant spiders appear in his story (especially as foes to the small joyous Hobbits). He make many notes of saying how the Haradrim were black skinned. His quest to create an English mythology was in fact to create roots for a ‘pre-England’. Some would argue of Númenor’s importance in this aspect. What could he be trying to relate that to? Surely not England herself, as it wouldn’t have sunk.

Thanks for your post.
Food for thought indeed.

 

[the mormegil]

I've always thought as the Shire as England. Rolling hills, moorland, old forests and green pastures all remind me of England. I can't see it encompassing the whole of middle earth, I haven't seen any towering mountains with icy peaks around recently .

 

[Mithadan]

Originally posted by Foehammer
Excellent work going into this but let me lend some of my knowledge:

Fascinating, eh?

Welcome to the mod, Glamdring. We welcome your input, but if I (not speaking for anybody else) may say so, the last three posts of yours that I've read come off as a little preachy. Maybe I do too sometimes (somebody please let me know if and when that happens), but I hope not to. Your knowledge will be happily received if you share that hope too. (I hope I've managed to say this nicely. )

Edit:

Originally posted by mrtn
Mithadan, I never meant he was religious per se, just that those traits fit from a game point of view. But if people scream for industrious I won't quarrel. Much...

Ahah! Gameplay considerations? Do tell, I don't know about that stuff. Maybe we shouldn't take the unanimity of the 'vote' to be conclusive until we address this issue. Mrtn?

Another edit:

Originally posted by the mormegil
I've always thought as the Shire as England. Rolling hills, moorland, old forests and green pastures all remind me of England. I can't see it encompassing the whole of middle earth, I haven't seen any towering mountains with icy peaks around recently .

Good point. I recall Tolkien likening the Numenoreans, and later the Men of Gondor, to the Romans. Probably why PJ depicted soldiers of Gondor wearing lorica segmenta-style shoulder armour (ack!)...

 

[Foehammer]

Welcome to the mod, Glamdring. We welcome your input, but if I (not speaking for anybody else) may say so, the last three posts of yours that I've read come off as a little preachy. Maybe I do too sometimes (somebody please let me know if and when that happens), but I hope not to. Your knowledge will be happily received if you share that hope too. (I hope I've managed to say this nicely.

A little background on myself: I'm a professional writer working on my first novel. Yes, Fantasy. No surprise.

I'm 37 years old and I've probably re-read LOTR over a dozen times but have purposely avoided reading it while the movies were being made so I could go in with a "clean slate" attitude. However, I've acquired quite a bit of information I haven't managed to yet forget about that book over the years and I don't mind sharing it.

Now, these things being said I think it is extremely important to understand that if I have come off "preachy" in a couple of posts it is not intentional -- I am simply trying to share my knowledge.

But most importantly, I do NOT deal well with forums where people attempt to censor others, cry foul whenever there is something they don't understand or agree with, or otherwise try to curb the rights of others to be heard in a natural fashion - and that is, being human and not having to cross every T and dot every I in every post just to be sure someone isn't going to ridicule it.

My very first post on these forums was immediately put upon in such a manner and I have seen it too many times before. I have been on the Internet since before most people even knew it existed and old schoolers learn to avoid forums that are "trolled" because, quite frankly, we don't have the patience any longer for such behavior and I definitely do not have the time for it either. This is why I overreacted but have since come to my senses and decided to post again.

But I'm a cautious poster.

I hope very much that I can come to these forums and enjoy them, contribute, educate and be educated as the case may be, but I have pointed out now what I will not tolerate. None of us should, frankly.

Unlike you, I do not hope that you contain yourself and are perfectly polite all the time. By all means be yourself and I will have enough wit to know when you are being serious and when you are being sarcastic. You have not offended me at all so far and I'm grateful for your reply and the opportunity to clarify my thoughts on the subject.

That being said, hopefully I have managed to explain myself clearly enough that I don't have to go into this subject in the future, but I know it's not a perfect world.

As a side note, I have to laugh because I saw an episode of the West Wing just last night that went into these very concepts and the whole idea of power brokering on forums, thought-crunchers, Internet control freaks, etc.

How's that for irony?

Glamdring, the Foe-Hammer = just a random nick? Now you know the answer to that one.

He make many notes of saying how the Haradrim were black skinned.

Very interesting. I'd like to read these for myself if you could provide a reference, I'd really appreciate it. I know there is still a lot of Christopher Tolkien material out there that I have not yet had the time to read and I would not be surprised to find out more and more unexpected facts about the creation process behind Middle-Earth. I never tire of learning about this either because it is such an essential part of my own work.

 

[Mithadan]

Hey Foehammer,

Thanks for the background and clarification. Glad you don't want to come off as preachy. Just wanted to make sure that future "knowledge sharing" didn't come off as a top-down type affair. Knowledge is a social activity, so the aforementioned approach is usually counterproductive (unless one makes a mod all by one's self). There are a few such folk around here, old, young, credentialed, whatever -- and we value their smarts, but try to keep them on a leash of civility and openness. (Do note that I expressed no hope to contain myself and be polite all the time. I hoped that I haven't come off as preachy in the past. But I'll add: I do hope not to be rude or condescending. I don't want to be an ass, or a know-it-all.)

So let's get to work!

Any opinion on the stats for our "hobbit line" of units? I know nothing of such things. How do you like the waistcoats on the various graphics suggested for the hobbit "worker"? Seems the "French" dude is winning in the polls. Any thoughts on the two civ-traits for our Isengard civ? Scientific/Industrial is the favorite, although there may be (yet unknown) gameplay advantages to Scientific/Religius. And so on... We are working within limits (e.g., Isengard in all four eras of the game), so it does call for a fair dose of extra-textuality and well-grounded creativity, both of which are sifted through various persons' gut-reaction-filters (aesthetic meter? I dunno what to call it). It's fun work.

On Haradrim being dark skinned, I do believe that's why the Professor referred to them as (none too PC) "swarthy men." I don't think you have to hit the Chris texts to find that (bit of background: I have no texts at hand where I'm at [overseas], so it's all from memory and some imperfect internet resources).

 

[the mormegil]

I realise that I hadn't welcomed you in my last post. So anyway welcome Foehammer, your knowledge should prove valuable.

On a side not, from what you have said, I would seriously discourage you from venturing into Off Topic.

@PCH - I don't think the AI would be able to utilise those skills. What about making their combat units invisible aswell to reflect the ability to hide in the terrain? Why not have the workers as permanent militia? I think it would make just as much sense. They work the fields but as soon as trouble arrives they get ready for combat. So workers have a reasonable defense score and maybe a small attack score. What do you think?

 

[AlcTrv]

Just about invisibility...I'd say that non-combat units should possibly KEEP invisibility into 3rd. If they do have to drop it, maybe give it to some of their military units (we definately need invisible hobbits in the scenario at least)

 

[Mithadan]

I wish I had something constructive to say about hobbit invsibility, but I don't. I'll just say that I think hobbit invisibility sounds really cool, and anything the AI can handle I'll go for! (Maybe I'll regret that later?)

Anyway, have a good night, folks.

 

[PCHighway]

The AI could definitely utilize invisible workers. Giving an attack bonus to the worker wouldn’t do much, as the AI never attacks with terraform units anyway so unfortunately that would defeat the purpose of the milita .

Giving the Hobbits both invisible units as well as average in strength would be bad. We would also loose the need to give them so many buildings which would in effect take away their “boom” aspect. So the only unique thing about The Shire would be small units and unrealistically invisible combat units. No, I don’t believe that makes any sense, as giving them invisible combat units will open the door for aggressive offense. I don’t think you guys are comprehending how good an invisible settler can be. You can virtually escape an entire hoard of settlers through enemy territory and box him in. Or travel through his territory directly and settle on iron not quite in his territory.

Foehammer: You say that you have not read the other Middle-earth works of Tolkien at such a high degree as the trilogy. I would suggest them to you, as personally I never pick up a fantasy book unless it looks to have high depth in background. Just a consumers point of view .

I can relate to your view on forumers. I personally despise nearly all forums except this one . I hate the spamming, pointlessness of topics and posts. This is the primary reason I have never exceeded 1.50 posts per day, and often drop below the 1.00 mark. If nothing needs to be said, I won’t say it, no point.

You mention how people jump on ‘newbs’ and the like, I understand your point, but you will have to live with the moderators. They try and run a tight ship, and sometimes will get rid of off-topic posts as well as ‘flame war’ inducing posts. That is just how it goes, and you should never take it personally.

The Return of the King
"[...] had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."

The Two Towers
"[...]'Tis said that there were dealings of old between Gondor and the kingdoms of Harad in the Far South; though there was never friendship."

The Two Towers
"[...] His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword."

The Fellowship of the Ring
"[...] I have crossed many mountains and many rivers, and trodden many plains, even into the far countries of Rhun and Harad where the stars are strange."

The last one I thought was interesting, as pointing almost to a spherical world, i.e. hemispheres.

 

[Sarevok]

Originally posted by PCHighway
Sarevok- I have been working on a private Beta MSN groups page, when it is done I'll post how to get in there on this thread. I will PM you to alert you of the post.

Understood. I am very interested in this topic and I would like to help out as much as I can because I am seeing little left in my future for scenario creation and I would like to help with a good LOTR scenario rather than my mediocre ones from a year ago. I will wait for your PM, whenever that comes.

- Sarevok

 

[Foehammer]

Any opinion on the stats for our "hobbit line" of units? I know nothing of such things. How do you like the waistcoats on the various graphics suggested for the hobbit "worker"? Seems the "French" dude is winning in the polls. Any thoughts on the two civ-traits for our Isengard civ? Scientific/Industrial is the favorite, although there may be (yet unknown) gameplay advantages to Scientific/Religius.

Definitely Scientific/Industrial. Saruman would not fit a Relgious mode at all, especially considering that he is a betrayer of the higher powers he serves and his Istari Order. Religion means nothing to him, but the powers availed to him via his own mastery of Science and Industry definitely matter.

On Haradrim being dark skinned, I do believe that's why the Professor referred to them as (none too PC) "swarthy men."

This is true. I'd completely forgotten that "swarthy" line from the books. However, I'd still have to disagree that they are black in an African degree. I'd tend to lean towards my earlier statements -- dark skin is actually present in many races, especially Asian Indian (Aryan) and Semitics (Arabs) and even my own (part) Italian heritage. I guess I'm of a mindset that African tribes would just be far, too far away from the region that I envision the stories to be encompassing, and therefor the odds are far greater that these "swarthy" men are forefathers of the Moors/Arabs and other Mediterranean tribes. I seem to see a logical line on the globe ending at Egypt, but that's my interpretation only.

Either way, it makes no real difference in the end, does it, as long as the Haradrim are wielding appropriate weapons and gear, the degree to what shade of dark they are is just detail and open to the unit creators own judgement first and foremost.

.

Just about invisibility...I'd say that non-combat units should possibly KEEP invisibility into 3rd. If they do have to drop it, maybe give it to some of their military units (we definately need invisible hobbits in the scenario at least)

On Hobbit Invisibility, I'd say this makes good sense. You will notice that Hobbits in the stories can make themselves scarce when they really are of a mind to, and there is even a reference in one of the appendices where Prof. Tolkien infers that they still walk amongst us but are so quiet and small now to be almost, well, invisible.

With that in mind, if anything, the Invisibility aspect of Hobbits should only get better with time, not the other way around.

Also, Hobbits should be flat out deadly with bows and missile weapons and military units should be given ranged attack: short range compared to Men and Elves, but within that range they practically never miss. This characteristic is covered in the chapter Scouring of the Shire in ROTK in detail and in the Foreward of Fellowship of the Ring also.

PCHighway:

Foehammer: You say that you have not read the other Middle-earth works of Tolkien at such a high degree as the trilogy. I would suggest them to you, as personally I never pick up a fantasy book unless it looks to have high depth in background. Just a consumers point of view

There's hardly anything out on the Fantasy market that can even come close to the background time invested by Tolkien. I may be a bit rusty in my direct knowledge of Tolkien, as shown by me forgetting some of the above quotes, but I do have two books on my shelf that should prove very interesting and helpful here: War of the Ring and Treason of Isengard. Now if I can just find the time to finally read them.

If you appreciate detail, then you'll probably end up purchasing one of my books someday. I'm a detail fanatic.

Thanks for the Welcomes all.

Foe

 

[Celeborn]

Hello FoeHammer/Glamdring/Bob...

Input is always valued...

On a side note you might want to read the Silmarilion... That clarifies the positions a bit in my opinion... I dont have my copy with me at the moment but when I do i'll look for some evidence...

But I know that in the fall of Numenor the nature of the world was changed, and it was thrown back upon it self, ie made spherical...

But anywho Welcome! Any and all input you can give would be appreciated...

Now, considiring that we are going to have the hobbits a bit weaker than other races, the invisbilty would help them out...

In my warped mind I can just see hobbits sneaking up to an enemy outpost out of sight and then taking it by suprise... Also in the end of RotK the hobbits ambush Sarumans men...

Edit, I would go for Sci/Ind for Isengard...