Mining mountains
- Thread starter Fermongu
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Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
There should be an early mountain mine available at mining I think.
Yeah, it can only be built on mountains with resources.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
This is not quite right. Why? Because it eliminates the chance thru having a mine on a peak of getting a future resource to show up. Every other mine placed on a hill where there is No resource has this same % chance. That a mountain (ie Peak) mine by Not being allowed to be built does not afford. All Mines should retain this chance. All Peaks should be minable too. Exposed resource or not. You have changed this game mechanism by not allowingthe player and AI to place a mine on any peak once the tech that enables the mountain mine is achieved.
Please reconsider this and re-establish this mechanism to the mod.
Early mountain mine doesn't discover resources. It is one buildable only on peak with resources.
Mountain Mine can discover resources, and can be built on all peaks.
That is at Mining you can do limited mining on peaks and Mountaineering unlocks full-fledged mountain mines.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I don't think Joe was asking for clarification on WHAT the situation is. I got the impression he understood that later mountain mines would still work as normal, but felt that the early one should have the chance to work a normal peak and discover a resource there in the process as well. He was requesting we change it. Do you have good reason not to? I'm wondering why and can think of the arguments on both sides pro and con - was just hoping to hear the thinking behind it.
Originally I wanted early mountain mine to not be buildable on peaks without resources.
@Toffer90 do you think we should make it to be buildable on peaks without resources?
I'm of the opinion that mining peaks should be rarer than farming flatland in the ancient era, that it should not be mainstream for every owned peak plot to have a mountain mine before mountaineering tech.
There are two (3) scenarios I'm OK with:
- No peak mines before mountaineering.
- Makes the most sense from a game-design perspective. Simple and consistent, least confusing for players.
- Only peak mining if valuable resource is present in the peak before mountaineering.
- Current situation because players couldn't accept seeing a temporary inaccessible resource on the map.
(3) I guess I could accept not having a peak unlocking tech altogether, i.e. no mountaineering tech.
• Mountain mine unlocked at mining, no early mountain mine improvement needed, and all units in the game can enter peaks always, even prehistoric units.
• Effectively removing the uniqueness factor of peak plots. Consistent and simple, though not my preferred option.
• Effectively removing the uniqueness factor of peak plots. Consistent and simple, though not my preferred option.
P:S. I'm not against moving the mountaineering tech to an earlier position in the tech tree.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I'm personally at least wanting what we have at minimum movement towards not enabling peaks further until mountaineering. But at least this gives some reasoning behind why it's only limited to resource based peaks until then.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Correct. The % chance is never great anyway so it would not make New resources pop up at every mountain mine.
And from my point of view since we allowed resources to be "discovered" earlier in the mod tech tree time line then allowing peak mining earlier would go hand in hand with these changes already done to resource reveals.
Originally Mountaineering was not about mining at all. When, iirc, it was Afforess that added Mountaineering to RoM/AND it was for troop passages (ie Hannibal type scenario) to become possible. Mining had nothing to do with the original intent of the Mountaineering tech. (And realistically and historically mountains had been long mined before Hannibal took elephants over the Alps.) But somewhere down the line someone began to associate Mountaineering with Mountain Mines. Since Peak usage modding wise had now become available as well vs vanilla Civ IV where peaks were never used.
Is it Mountaineering that also allows Mountain cities to be built? I don't remember if it was allowed with Mountaineering but with a later tech. Any way this is my thought process and why it should be allowed
irishhombre
King
It is algebra that allows mountain cities to be built, if I remember correctly.
And if we go by history, it seems mining in mountains has existed in some form since the Bronze Age: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_Mountains#Economic_history (one of the earliest locations for tin mining - the mountain range itself goes up to 4000 ft). Of course, in Medieval times this greatly expanded to include silver and dye (cobalt blue), and much later, uranium.
Yudishtira
Spiritual/Creative
But they're not really mountains are they? If they were in-game, they would not be impassible. I grant it's a bit arbitrary, but I'd suggest a game mountain is at least 2000m, and steep-sided for a significant proportion of that.
Even if they were/are, they would be better represented as a wonder, being unique.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Real life experience, I have gone to Topaz Mountain located in Utah several times over the past few years. The caldera that produces the Topaz is at 6,000+ft. No climbing is really involved unless I want to get up on the ridges that go to the peak @ ~ 7900ft. I have climbed at age 67 2/3rds of the way up myself with only the aid of a staff/ walking stick. If I can do this then even in the Prehistoric/Ancient eras so did mankind in general.
But we are talking about a game and it's self imposed restriction for game play, that is not real life.
Peaks in the game of Civ IV do represent Mountains. Not tall hills.
But we are talking about a game and it's self imposed restriction for game play, that is not real life.
Peaks in the game of Civ IV do represent Mountains. Not tall hills.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I don't think it was too unique. The Incans were pretty much living all over one of the highest mountain ranges in the world. Mountains were considered barriers for civilization crossings and such but not because of one mountain so much as due to the larger range being nearly impassable on foot. But if one was to approach, incline and then begin to mine in that region, it's not all that difficult to conceive that it doesn't take huge technology to do so, much as Joseph is pointing out. Making use of that land is not all that hard, even if fully crossing it is. We don't have to imagine that the industrial activity requires crossing the ridgeline(s) of the mountainous region I don't think, but crossing the region as a whole would.
It requires some special efforts to get workers into position to be able to build the route and the improvement as it is, and I was hoping that we could make a set of buildings that could access certain mountain bonuses based on raw vicinity tags that would last until mining at which point the early mountain mine would fill that gap.
I think I'm happy with the way it is now because due to the inhospitable nature of the mountainous region, you wouldn't go trying to get something there that wasn't critical to get and you already knew it was there, not until later, particularly after further mining and metals prompts your civ to realize there's usually something of mineral value in any hole one can dig into a mountain anywhere and the mountain mine eventually opens up that can be constructed on any peak plot, which could then make discoveries.
So I suppose after hearing all sides, my vote is for leaving it as it is at least for now. We do still need that line of raw vicinity buildings for accessing early peak resources though. Obsidian and stone in particular, considering how valuable they are in the early game and how many of them end up on peaks.
Esfera
Warlord
- Joined
- May 28, 2018
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My understanding it's that climbing a mountain or establishing an insignificant community of hunter-gatherers there isn't the same thing as establishing a permanent settlement or a reliable system of transport and communication that allows trade, mining, etc...No climbing is really involved unless I want to get up on the ridges that go to the peak @ ~ 7900ft. I have climbed at age 67 2/3rds of the way up myself with only the aid of a staff/ walking stick. If I can do this then even in the Prehistoric/Ancient eras so did mankind in general.
But we are talking about a game and it's self imposed for game play, that is not real life.
The former situation is represented in the game as revealing the tile through an explorer or hunter unit, the latter situation is represented in the game by settling a city or improving the mountain tile with a mine.
In Civilization IV ice sheet is technically impassable, but in real life there are numerous expeditions to both the South (which technically isn't ice sheet) and the North Pole by scientists, geographers or tourists that have lots of money to burn.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Yeah that WILL be changing in C2C as well as soon as I can figure out how to do it properly. Most ice is over water and that's an issue for land units without some special programming (which will be done to enable this kind of travel in special cases, even as early as to enable land bridge crossings).
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Which is what I'm talking about in the 1st place now isn't it.
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