MOD PREVIEW: Medieval Europe Vs Medieval Japan

[Hygro]

A project I'm sure many have thought of was something I began in August of 2003. Technically.

Maybe one or two people remember me refering briefly to a secret project. Well I've decided to break the secrecy because I wasn't getting very far!

THE CONCEPT
The idea behind the game started from the simple question: who would win, a knight or a samurai? Which evolved into: what army would win, a european army from its fuedal days or a Japanese one from its fuedal days?

THE GOAL
The point is to create a mod with a new tech tree starting, units, buildings, governments, etc, from pre middle ages, going into the early gunpowder days.

In this first version, it will be reminiscent of Warcraft 2, in which units and techs will be equivilents. When and if I make a version 2, I will change units and whatnot for greater historical accuracy.

Another thing that I intend to do is only use official content (nothing usermade) This is for a few reasons. One is that if I download one unit, I'll download a whole bunch and have a never-ending project. A second reason is that I want to keep things small, simple, and easy to deal with. A third reason is that a lot of the units aren't as professionally done, up to par, or even simply match designs with existing units.

The Problems (a lot of you will like the first one!)
I don't have enough ideas. I know a lot of you guys always have these great ideas but you don't do the work. Well oddly enough I'm willing to do much of the work, but I don't really know what to work on! I need people to help me decide where to put techs, what techs to put, how to incorporate various things, that sort of thing.

My second problem is that I don't have enough firaxis made units avaliable unless I choose not to use direct equivilents. Currently the Japanese do not have enough offensive foot soldiers. The Europeans lack cavalry (I'm considering considering the conquistador as a filler, which makes a pretty cool generic cavalry unit if it werent for the dog, or the way he holds his lance). Artillery isn't as big a problem but there's most definitely concern!


What say you all?

 

[Mithadan]

I say it sounds like fun. Clash of Feudalisms! Not much else I can do to help you with, though, sorry...

 

[Primordial Moon]

Hygro- I really think that, to deal with your second problem, you should use user-made units. If you really look, there are some high-quality ones out there that are about as good as the units that came with the game. Also, there's something about feudal Japan that you may not know. When the Japanese had contact with the europeans (1500s or possibly earlier), they learned from the europeans how to manufacture muskets (or whatever gun there was at that time). I looked it up (at one time I did a report having to do with Japan) and the Japanese, at one point, had created more guns than all of Europe combined had ever made. This may surprise you. Well, that's what the Japanese are good at! They are taught an idea or invention by the West and then they take it and improve it (e.g. cars, saws, electronics [too many electronics to list specifics, which include computers, televisions, etc.], etc). So, I think your mod should include something to do with that. However, later on (in the 1600s, I believe), Tokugawa Ieyasu (who had recently united Japan, thus ending Japan's feudal period) issued an edict that put a severe limit on or banned (I don't know which) the creation and use of guns. He also outlawed Christianity (except in one city. I believe it was Osaka) and didn't allow anyone to enter or leave Japan (even Japanese citizens abroad). Foreigners, like the Christians, were allowed to live only in one city (which I think is Osaka). Tokugawa Ieyasu (as you may know, in Japan, the family name is the first one and the personal name is the second one [like in China]) also created strict laws on almost every aspect of Japanese life, even placing a limit on the size a child's doll could be. Why did he do this? He wanted to preserve his dynasty of Shoguns (translates into "Barbarian-quelling generalissimo") for many years (and they did continue to rule until 1850 or so). Also, however, he wanted to save Japan from destroying itself. European influence so far had had terrible effects on Japan, particularly the introduction of muskets. In fact, if Tokugawa Ieyasu hadn't limited or banned muskets and tried to preserve Japan and limit outside influence, Japan might have destroyed itself completely. He had saved a nation, but at the expense of obsolete technology and governing strategies and systems. These were the same for 250 years! I think you should expand this mod to be more than just a "Europe vs. Japan" thing. If not, maybe someone else will be willing. I think that, even if you leave it as a hypothetical East vs. West confrontation, you should try and incorporate some of the info I posted (if not all of it, at least some of it). Some of those things might be difficult or even impossible to implement in Civ3. But, for all those that are possible, I urge you to include them.

*gasp* Whew! I had to take a breath before I passed out! Anyhow, consider what I said and good luck to ya!

-Primordial Moon

P.S. Sorry it's off topic, but how do you give yourself an avatar (little picture under your name)?

 

[Hygro]

Primordial Moon, I loved the information you gave me. I'm not sure how to incorporate all of that but it's definetly something to make use of!

I want to add that while it's more or less titled 'europe vs japan' it's not going to be doing things like featuring locked european kingdoms vs locked Japanese clans. Everyone can fight and befriend everyone.

About the avatar, click "user cp" on the top left of the page, and on the left side you will see how to give yourself an avatar. You need 300 posts before you can upload yourself a custom one, but there are a lot of good ones to choose from.

A question to you all: should I stress myself and try to include other regions and civilizations? I keep wondering if I should add the mongols. Of course then I think maybe I should add the arabs. (both are sort of E v W connecters) Then I'm wondering about teams such as Ghana/Mali/Songhai and China. I'm thinking no, because then it loses its direct European knights vs Japanese Samurai, and is a lot of work, but it's something to consider.

My next question: should I import user made graphics, which is definitely being considered but is to me not idea? I mean, am I alone in wanting to utilize only official unit graphics?

 

[Justus II]

I agree with your idea of doing the mod using all build-in graphics, at least for the first version, mainly for the ease of playtesting and portability. It makes for a much smaller file to download, and 'should' remove problems of missing graphics/ini/wav/ etc. files from someone who didn't install correctly. I think you will also get more people willing to playtest it, if it doesn't mean installing dozens of new units/folders/etc.

Once you get the mod up and running, and have had several people playtest it, so you know it works and is pretty balanced, THEN you can go to the effort of modifying units and picking the best graphics. I think there should be plenty of units available, if you look at the units used in Senguko and the Middle Ages scenario, there's quite a variety there, that would already be existing for anyone who has conquests.

BTW, are you considering a 'real-world' type map, or just a mod for random maps? Not sure from your description which you intended. Good Luck!

 

[Tholish]

How about a map based on the world columbus expected to find, ie without the Americas. Just the old world. That way Japan and Europe are just across a one square wide ocean from each other--and its just sea if you go the northern route.


As for units, are you kidding? Graft Sengoku and Middle Ages, along with some roman stuff. Put some of asia in there maybe. Loot the old PTW stuff for Teturkhan. Steal units from non Eurpoean cultures and the past--use Ancient cavalry and the Rider and the Ansar.

The outrageously expensive, but free-to-some-at-the-start, "flavor" techs are Shinto and Christianity. All subsequent techs of each line depend on these. That way you simulate flavors without actually using flavors.

You can downplay the rest of Eurasia, or just leave it an impassable back wall, for an early version, but eventually an entire "old world only" mod would be cool.

 

[Rita Poon]

World Columbus expected-that's an ingenious idea, Tholish! Would be a great way to negate any advantage Europe would gain from colonies.

Another possibility is to ignore every continent save Eurasia. Would take place during the 16th century. Suppose Japan invades Korea (like they did under Hideyoshi) & sucessfully moves on to China. Rather than looking to expand west, say Europe directs all its efforts to defeating the Ottomons. After a long, costly confrontation, they take East Europe. Of course both scenarios demands a big leap of imagination. But that's exactly what you need to get this scenario started.

 

[Tholish]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25908

Theres a map in the maps forum by El Mencey that would be a good start. I downloaded it using this link, which I think will work.

 

[Hygro]

If you guys want to work on a scenario version with a map and everything, that would be really cool. Personally, I'm just going to make a mod.

 

[mister T]

very good idea, i don't know, didn't even look, how old this thread is, but for the makers of this japanese-european-clash...don't forget, the japanese may be good in technology, but europe knows how to use it in a more realistic, functional, life-quality-improving, more-power-giving way and ten I am also talking long term,


greetsss

 

[Hygro]

welcome to the boards mister T Maybe one could translate this into game terms by making many japanese techs faster, but the european ones giving slightly better results?

To the few people who may possibly be vaguely following the developement, I have not forgotten about this project!

 

[thestonesfan]

Clever idea!

I don't think you really need many user-made units, but I don't see why you can't include a few if you are missing some things. Actually, I think you probably should use one of aaglo's medieval cannons for the Europeans(the Japanese have the Hwach'a and Fire Cannons), and some of his ships for the Japanese. Other than those, the official units cover most everything.

I think building it for a random map might be best, but I did have an idea - how about a map with just the British Isles and Japan as the "official" mod map? That might be cool.

 

[Tathlum]

You Gonna make a couple of civs for each side? Great Clans versus European Kingdoms? The Great Clans had equivalent manpower to many European nations. Should probably leave out the Mongols who despite all the pomp and ceremony of Europe and Japan, could kick the crap out of Both. Same goes for the Arabs.

I'd make it on a random map, with as many Great Clans as you can find Asian Leaderheads for, an equivalent number of European Nations and have at it. Simple ass kicking fun for all the family. Don't worry too much about real life and embrase the imagery......Knights vs Samurai....Sweet.

And I believe Nagasaki was the city Primordial Moon was on about not Osaka (the Capital).

 

[Vimacosi]

don't forget that was the portuguese nation that arrive in japan ( all that region ) for the first time to trade, today in japan exist one celebration that is the first rifle that enter in japan an offer of the portuguese king. Then arrived the english after a century of portuguese domination.
if you want detail of portuguese history i can help you with that
i have a complain about the game civ3, they forget the portuguese civilization in the standart version of the game, in the XIV, XV and XVI century, Portugal was the first civilization of the world.
of course i am portuguese

 

[Mallek]

I think you should down load some of the excellent units made by many in the unit graphics forum there hundreds of medieval units both japanese and european.

It is perhaps usefull to consider that although the japs made the best swords known to man i.e. the katana, the murusame and the boken. Spanish toledo steel is not to be sniffed at and milanese armour/ italian armour is the strongest armour ever made. Also the two types of armour the two sides wore are designed to deffend against differant weapons and fighting styles ie. the japs used manly slashing weapons and the euros use mainly thurting weapons

 

[Colonel Kraken]

Ooh, I could go for something like this.

 

[Hygro]

This may sound funny but I don't think I'll have too much time to work on this until school starts.

So far, it seems I will download units, but will be very picky about it. I will try to incorporate your guys's suggestions, but I want to keep it real simple to start with. We'll see how things go

And welcome to CFC Vimascosi!

 

[odintheking]

this is one of the best Ideas for a mod ever,

 

[waTTe]

A somewhat "aged" idea now, regarding the date of the first post , but still inspiring.

And maybe this will stay true?

To the few people who may possibly be vaguely following the developement, I have not forgotten about this project!

Anyway some remarks have to be made to the post of primordial moon, they are not meant offensive, but there are a lot "facts" here, that are only half true:

Hygro- I really think that, to deal with your second problem, you should use user-made units. If you really look, there are some high-quality ones out there that are about as good as the units that came with the game. Also, there's something about feudal Japan that you may not know. When the Japanese had contact with the europeans (1500s or possibly earlier),

The first portuguese entered japanese soil in 1542 or 1543

they learned from the europeans how to manufacture muskets (or whatever gun there was at that time). I looked it up (at one time I did a report having to do with Japan) and the Japanese, at one point, had created more guns than all of Europe combined had ever made.

?????????????????????

This may surprise you.

Yes indeed - k the japanese started copying european weapons early and with success, - I think I remember something about the first contact was a portuguese shipwreck in Kyushu? and there were muskets (arquebuses) that started it all, but for the amount that were produced by the japanese ..... as you tell by yourself the were banned only 60 years after!

Well, that's what the Japanese are good at! They are taught an idea or invention by the West and then they take it and improve it (e.g. cars, saws, electronics [too many electronics to list specifics, which include computers, televisions, etc.], etc). So, I think your mod should include something to do with that. However, later on (in the 1600s, I believe), Tokugawa Ieyasu (who had recently united Japan, thus ending Japan's feudal period) issued an edict that put a severe limit on or banned (I don't know which) the creation and use of guns.

Banned, he also limited the use of all weapons to the samurai, finsihing what Hashiba (Toyotomi) Hideyoshi has started.

He also outlawed Christianity (except in one city. I believe it was Osaka)

It was step by step. First only new missionaries, then new mission was forbidden the pressure was on christians was always raised a little bit to drive them into rebellion and destroy them. Christian Samurai were replaced by Tokugawa (zen-)budhist and shinto followers, taxes raised and raised again. There were fearsome peasant-revolts, the last and blodiest (the word holocaust is used for) was the revolt of the region of shimabara - around 1635 I think.

and didn't allow anyone to enter or leave Japan (even Japanese citizens abroad). Foreigners, like the Christians, were allowed to live only in one city (which I think is Osaka).

Should be Nagasaki I believe (later artificial island of deshima?) and the island of Hirado, west of Kyushu. Only dutch and english traders were allowed there.

Tokugawa Ieyasu (as you may know, in Japan, the family name is the first one and the personal name is the second one [like in China]) also created strict laws on almost every aspect of Japanese life, even placing a limit on the size a child's doll could be. Why did he do this? He wanted to preserve his dynasty of Shoguns (translates into "Barbarian-quelling generalissimo") for many years (and they did continue to rule until 1850 or so).

1868 although the Shogunat was weakend before (1853/perry)

Also, however, he wanted to save Japan from destroying itself. European influence so far had had terrible effects on Japan, particularly the introduction of muskets. In fact, if Tokugawa Ieyasu hadn't limited or banned muskets and tried to preserve Japan and limit outside influence, Japan might have destroyed itself completely.

Shurely you can argue like this, but it seems somewhat one-eyed to me. Ieyashu and his long-time ally Nobunaga had used firearms to a great extend, destroying some mighty, but more traditional clans like the Takeda with them. I think the Tokugawa banned firearms, because they`ve seen the threat these weapons were for all samurai and also for their clans shogun-title. I believe this to be true (in a lesser degree) also for general european influence. Of course as you say the Tokugawa undoubtly preserved the unique japanese culture from being surpressed by europeans:

He had saved a nation, but at the expense of obsolete technology and governing strategies and systems. These were the same for 250 years! I think you should expand this mod to be more than just a "Europe vs. Japan" thing. If not, maybe someone else will be willing. I think that, even if you leave it as a hypothetical East vs. West confrontation, you should try and incorporate some of the info I posted (if not all of it, at least some of it). Some of those things might be difficult or even impossible to implement in Civ3. But, for all those that are possible, I urge you to include them.

*gasp* Whew! I had to take a breath before I passed out! Anyhow, consider what I said and good luck to ya!

-Primordial Moon

Well again good luck with that, a great idea, but something hard to be done (especially with the somewhat poor possibilities and AI of Civ), even if you focuse only on who will kick whose ass on the battlefield

If there will be a project trying to get this to work, i´d like to help if I´m welcomed, but unfortunately I´m lacking the time to give more than some assist.

Have fun,

waTTe

 

[ptclouds]

I like it.

Though the Japanese always have a distinct disadvantage when I place them in position on their island, as do the English, using Kal-El's World Map. The islands, I guess, are just too small to develop prooperly and sea use is limited. You could offer these civ's an earlier tech which allow them to transport settlers earlier and more cheaply in ancient times. Otherwise this whole thing may ne'er happen!

And yes, the Columbus style map is a great idea - although I have no idea what sort of ships the Japanese had in those days - they didn't seem to get around as much as the Europeans did! I believe the Europeans used their ships to some very decisive victories.

Maybe you could make roads more difficult to build - and slow passage (movement) down them so ancient armies need to be more defensively placed and ships become more useful in transport and attacks of this nature - though God knows the AI can't use ships too well.

I also like the idea of civ-specific (or group specific techs) like Shinto-ism and Christianity. Perhaps you could expand on these to include Islam and Buddhism?


I think the civs you could consider include:

Asian:
Japan
Mongolia (with great mounted units for attack, but poor defensive units if you need to go and wipe them out - they probably shouldn't have too much access to roads either - make workers for Mongolia v. expensive)
Han Chinese
Manchuria / Korea?

European:
Portuguese
Dutch
English
French?

Middle Eastern:
Afghanistan?
(really not sure about these but they seem kind of necessary)

Polynesian:
Thai
Cham
Malay

Not big on history, but willing to learn