[MODCOMP] Inquisition Mod

[OrionVeteran]

Hey TheLopez,

Another 10 days have gone by with no response from anyone against my requested changes to your mod. Knowing that nearly 800 people have viewed this post without making a comment against making the suggested changes compels me to believe that most if not all of the readers want the mod changes to be made.

Although others have indicated privately to me that they might be able to make the changes (in the future) for me, I think it is only fair to give you the opportunity to make them first. After all, you are the author. Therefore, I humbly ask that you make these two requested mod changes to the Inquisition mod:

1. Set a pre-condition that insures a player’s state religion must exist in a city before an inquisitor can be used to remove any non-state religion.

2. Set a precondition to confirm the following before an Inquisitor can purge a religion from a city belonging to another civilization:

• There must be an open borders agreement with your civilization.
• The state religion of the civilization must match yours.
• Your state religion must be established in the city.

Very Respectfully,

Orion Veteran

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Has it occured to you that the reason he hasn't answered you is because (a) you were quite insulting towards him and (b) because he simply doesn't agree with your suggested changes (and has told you as much, btw). I reiterate his suggestion-that if you don't like this mod as it stands either (a) don't use it, (b) find someone to mod it for you to your liking or (c) mod it yourself.
But I really think you are wasting your time spamming this thread every week or so.

EDIT: oh and, btw, you use very specious reasoning indeed in claiming the number of SILENT people backs your call for changes. What is more telling is that over 250 people have downloaded either the Vanilla or warlords version of this mod-and not one of them (aside from you) has complained about balance issues or asked for changes. Perhaps this indicates that the problem is YOU and not the mod.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[OrionVeteran]

“I reiterate his suggestion-that if you don't like this mod…”

You really must have a reading problem, as my comment to TheLopez was: “I love this game and I like your mod.” Just where in my comment did I say, I “don’t like this mod?” I never said that; only you, GraveEatr and TheLopez have implied that I don’t like this mod. The truth in my comment is there for all to see. Therefore, it is inappropriate to re-iterate the false implication of your comment. So be an adult, admit that you were wrong and don’t bring it up again.

But I really think you are wasting your time spamming this thread every week or so.

Your comment about wasting time "spamming" this thread is a matter of opinion: Your opinion. I have an opinion too: I believe I am perfectly justified in making comments on this forum that asks the mod creator to make a couple of minor changes that would make the mod better and more in line with historical precedence. What better place is there to make comments on the inquisition mod than this thread?

oh and, btw, you use very specious reasoning indeed in claiming the number of SILENT people backs your call for changes.

If you care to notice, I asked for anyone to who disagrees with me to “present your side of the debate to justify why the proposed changes should not be implemented.” No one commented! The silence speaks volumes. That means no one disagrees with the proposals. I went so far as to ask, “Should I assume that everyone agrees in principle and is in favor of having TheLopez implement the changes?” Everyone had over a week to respond. No one did, not even you. Could it be that no one could actually come up with a logical reason or argument not to make the changes? Where are your logical comments to justify not incorporating the remaining two proposals? If you turn in a college term paper, without any support to back up what you say, then the college professor would laugh at your failure, as he lowers your grade to less than what your potential was. Fact is: You have no logical comments to make against my two suggestions; but instead, you have only posted emotional responses. Action talks and “B$” walks. Present a valid argument against the two proposals or concede the debate in defeat.

What is more telling is that over 250 people have downloaded either the Vanilla or warlords version of this mod-and not one of them (aside from you) has complained about balance issues or asked for changes. Perhaps this indicates that the problem is YOU and not the mod.

There you go making a false comment based upon an assumption. Perhaps you forgot that this mod comp was made to the specifications of Donegeal, who made the following suggestion:

In my post, I suggested that you only be able to purge religions from civs that have your founded religion as their state religion. Similar to how the Vatican has power extending way beyond its border...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/archiv.../t-142337.html

Do you disagree with Donegeal’s suggestion? If not, why are you not supporting my recommended change for problem 2, which is essentially the same idea, but is spelled out in greater detail? Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps the 250 downloaders, with few exceptions, have not taken the time to examine the mod in such detail, as I have? I would venture to say that many CivFanatics depend on people like me, who actually experiment with a single mod, in such great detail, does his research and makes recommend changes to the mod maker. You are going to have to do much better than making a false statement, if you want to justify why a matching suggestion from the originator, should not be implemented. Factual responses are better than making emotional responses. Try to concentrate on the merits of the suggestions, without being defensive. When you do, we can test the validity of the suggestions, without bruising any egos.

Very Respectfully,


Orion Veteran

 

[TheLopez]

Orion Veteran,

The reason why I haven't responded to you and to most people on my threads is because I have been very busy at work, enjoying time with my new son and developing the first module of my in-game mod editor... I am very close to releasing the first module of my in-game mod editor and after that I will go throught and make releases of my mod comps where needed (including this one).

EDIT: In other words Orion Veteran, don't feel bad about being ignored, you're not the only one...

 

[OrionVeteran]

The reason why I haven't responded to you and to most people on my threads is because I have been very busy at work, enjoying time with my new son and developing the first module of my in-game mod editor... I am very close to releasing the first module of my in-game mod editor and after that I will go throught and make releases of my mod comps where needed (including this one).

EDIT: In other words Orion Veteran, don't feel bad about being ignored, you're not the only one...

Congratulations on the recent arrival of your new son. Family always comes first and children are truly a blessing. Knowing this, I can patiently wait for your consideration of my two suggested changes to this mod comp.

Sincerely,

Orion Veteran

 

[OrionVeteran]

Quick note of importance: With the fresh installation of warlords, the new patch 2.08 and the inquisition mod; the mod fails to load and crashes at game startup. Obviously, if other people have the same problem I have just experienced, then this mod and possibly others will likely need an update to work with the new 2.08 warlords patch.

I encourage those who like this mod, to confirm whether or not you have the same startup problem after installing the new patch.

Truly,

Orion Veteran

 

[TheLopez]

I am going to go and buy the actual expansion since the copy I used to test for Firaxis does not like the patch. Expect updates to all my warlords mods in the next few days.

 

[spincrus]

I think this is a bug (well it doesn't really harm the gameplay, but is an annoyance nevertheless), but I'm not 100% sure. Let me fire it away anyway.

Let me summarize step-by-step:

1) Rival has inquisitors and used to be theocratic.
2) Rival is now non-theocratic (say, switched to Organized Religion following a peace treaty) but still owns the inquisitors.
3) Rival sends the inquisitors to your cities (say, the treaty also contained an open borders agreement).
4) Rival's state religion is A, mine is B, and the city in question has B and C.
5) In this case, when the rival tries to remove a religion from your city with the inquisitor of religion A (non-existant in the city), the game consumes the inquisitor and displays the message "C has spread in CityName!" - yes, "spread!"

When this happened, there were a couple of other conditions to add on top of this:

- The city in question was my capital.
- The rival had just capitulated to me three-four turns ago.


Thanks

 

[TheLopez]

Quick note of importance: With the fresh installation of warlords, the new patch 2.08 and the inquisition mod; the mod fails to load and crashes at game startup. Obviously, if other people have the same problem I have just experienced, then this mod and possibly others will likely need an update to work with the new 2.08 warlords patch.

I encourage those who like this mod, to confirm whether or not you have the same startup problem after installing the new patch.

Truly,

Orion Veteran

I am updating all of my Warlords mods to v2.0.8.0 including this one. I am almost done, so expect an update soon!

 

[TheLopez]

Updated both versions, the Warlords version is now compatible with the v2.0.8.0 patch!!!

 

[OrionVeteran]

Updated both versions, the Warlords version is now compatible with the v2.0.8.0 patch!!!

Hey TheLopez,

Thanks for making the changes to the Mod to include my suggestions. The configuration file is a brilliant idea, as it has 3 options that will allow players to customize the inquisitor abilities to how individuals want to play the game. Outstanding!

I tested the new inquisitor mod updated for Warlords 2.0.8.0 and came up with the following:

Only one bug or problem found so far: When I produced an inquisitor and tried to remove a non-state religion, the execution button does not light up or become visible. I am unable to use the inquisitor, as a result.

Facts: Goal is to remove the non-state religion from a city.

- I moved the inquisitor into a city owned by my civilization.

- The city has 2 religions, one state and one non-state religion.

- The configuration file has the first two options set to true and the last option set to false. Although changing any of these options did not help make the execution button become visible.

- I also tried moving the inquisitor into another city, with more religions: same problem, can’t use him.


Can you fix this button visibility bug?

Sincerely,


Orion Veteran

 

[TheLopez]

Hey TheLopez,

Thanks for making the changes to the Mod to include my suggestions. The configuration file is a brilliant idea, as it has 3 options that will allow players to customize the inquisitor abilities to how individuals want to play the game. Outstanding!

I tested the new inquisitor mod updated for Warlords 2.0.8.0 and came up with the following:

Only one bug or problem found so far: When I produced an inquisitor and tried to remove a non-state religion, the execution button does not light up or become visible. I am unable to use the inquisitor, as a result.

Facts: Goal is to remove the non-state religion from a city.

- I moved the inquisitor into a city owned by my civilization.

- The city has 2 religions, one state and one non-state religion.

- The configuration file has the first two options set to true and the last option set to false. Although changing any of these options did not help make the execution button become visible.

- I also tried moving the inquisitor into another city, with more religions: same problem, can’t use him.


Can you fix this button visibility bug?

Sincerely,


Orion Veteran

Alright, I missed one condition when adding the variables... I have posted a new version that should fix the bug.

 

[OrionVeteran]

I have posted a new version that should fix the bug.

First: I want to thank you for such a quick response. Your work on this mod is incredible!

Second: I want to let everyone know that the fix works perfectly. I have tested the new mod and all of the options work great! No question about it, the inquisition mod for Warlords is ready to play.

Third: My next goal is to look real hard at the mathematical numbers, which determine the chances for an inquisitor to remove a religion, under certain conditions. Pending that research, I might have one last minor recommendation to make.

Lastly: As it stands right now, I want to say this mod is outstanding and deserves to be put into the next major patch Firaxis Games turns out. Congratulations to TheLopez for turning out a really good mod.

Sincerely,

Orion Veteran

 

[Mexico]

some logical issue found:
because missionary is "upgradeable" to inquisitor, when you have theocracy civic, you are unable to build state-religion missionary, only inquisitor
so what about add ability to spread religion also for inquisitor? (add UNITAI_MISSIONARY)

 

[OrionVeteran]

some logical issue found:
because missionary is "upgradeable" to inquisitor, when you have theocracy civic, you are unable to build state-religion missionary, only inquisitor
so what about add ability to spread religion also for inquisitor? (add UNITAI_MISSIONARY)

Mexico,

1. You are correct about not being able to build the missionary when you have theocracy civic. I didn’t notice this because in the games I tested, I had already spread my state religion into all but one of my cities before I changed over to theocracy. We definitely need a fix to allow production of the missionary to continue, while in theocracy.

2. However, missionaries and inquisitors have mutually exclusive rolls to play. The missionary spreads the state religion, while the inquisitor removes non-state religions. History shows the inquisitor is not a missionary, but rather seeks to prevent the out break of heretic religions. Therefore, I must disagree with your request to add the ability for the inquisitor to spread the state religion. That is the exclusive job of the missionary, who by the way is actually cheaper to produce. Hopefully, TheLopez can fix the missionary to work under theocracy to restore the ability to spread your state religion.

Very Respectively,

Orion Veteran

 

[Grave]

Why not just have Organized Religion have the Missionary, and Theocracy have the Inquisitor? Would that clear up this upgrading issue?

It would help balance the game, so that way one religious civic doesn't horde all the powerful religious units. This would make the player (and the AI) think a little more carefully as to which religious civic they choose.

 

[Mexico]

Mexico,

1. You are correct about not being able to build the missionary when you have theocracy civic. I didn’t notice this because in the games I tested, I had already spread my state religion into all but one of my cities before I changed over to theocracy. We definitely need a fix to allow production of the missionary to continue, while in theocracy.

2. However, missionaries and inquisitors have mutually exclusive rolls to play. The missionary spreads the state religion, while the inquisitor removes non-state religions. History shows the inquisitor is not a missionary, but rather seeks to prevent the out break of heretic religions. Therefore, I must disagree with your request to add the ability for the inquisitor to spread the state religion. That is the exclusive job of the missionary, who by the way is actually cheaper to produce. Hopefully, TheLopez can fix the missionary to work under theocracy to restore the ability to spread your state religion.

Very Respectively,

Orion Veteran

i understand what you mean, but when we want both units under theocracy, then missionaries can't be upgraded to inquisitor - if upgrade is possible, previous unit can't be build
so there is 2 solutions:
1. missionaries can upgrade to inquisitor -> missionaries can't be build when inquisitor is available (theocracy) -> inquisitor can spread religion (we can imagine, that inquisitor "convert" some citizen to his religion)
2. if we want independent units, then missionaries cannot upgrade to inquisitor

 

[OrionVeteran]

i understand what you mean, but when we want both units under theocracy, then missionaries can't be upgraded to inquisitor - if upgrade is possible, previous unit can't be built.

Excellent point to consider! My first impression is to recommend your idea for having independent units. But first let’s examine both of your recommended solutions:

1. missionaries can upgrade to inquisitor -> missionaries can't be build when inquisitor is available (theocracy) -> inquisitor can spread religion (we can imagine, that inquisitor "convert" some citizen to his religion)

The question I ask is: Why would I want to use the inquisitor to do the missionary’s job of spreading the state religion?

First: The inquisitor is far more expensive to produce than the missionary. Unless you really need to spread your religion into a city, the use of the inquisitor instead of the missionary does not make good economic sense.

Second: I’m not sure that there is historical precedence to show how an inquisition trial spreads the faith. The inquisitor holds a trial to help purify the faith by ridding the empire of heretics, who profess a non-state sanctioned belief or religion. Perhaps an option could be made for those, who still want the inquisitor to spread the state religion, available in the configuration file.

Third: If we have no missionary that gives us the capability, other than the AI, to spread the faith while under theocracy, then that becomes a limiting factor under that civic. Again I see no historical evidence that indicates that missionaries should not be available in a theocracy. Actually, the opposite is true, as spreading the state religion is especially important to theocracies, where the religious faithful can be very fanatical in their beliefs.

2. if we want independent units, then missionaries cannot upgrade to inquisitor

First: Independent units will allow both the missionary and the inquisitor to be produced during theocracy. Both capabilities of spreading or removing a religion would be maintained. What’s the down side? No upgrade capability for the missionary. The upgrade capability would simply have to be removed from the mod.

Second: There may be another alternative to independent units. Perhaps coding could be developed to prevent the missionary from becoming obsolete, which could allow both the missionary and the inquisitor to be available during theocracy. Under this option, the upgrade from missionary to inquisitor could still happen, without loosing the ability to produce more missionaries. IMO this is the best option of all.

Very Respectively,


Orion Veteran

 

[flyerec]

This sounds really cool. The inquisition is a section of religious history that I think Fraxis really sleeked away from.

Question though, is there a benefit to removing a religion from one of your cities? If it can make your neighbors angry at you then is it really worth it?

Also you mentioned how you can send an inquisitor into another civ’s city, this sounds a little problematic, do you have to have the holy city of the religion your trying to “protect” so historic example, the Vatican could send an inquisitor into a foreign country but that was because the Vatican was seat of Christian power. Also, if you just have “open boarders” would that really be enough? Like if Italy was a true nation state, with the Vatican functioning inside the county would they be able to send an inquisitor into say France with only a basic treaty (I assume “open boarders” would count as a very basic treaty in historic terms) Wouldn’t it be more realistic to only be able to send an inquisitor into another country who is your vassal?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Just so you know, it is very difficult-almost impossible in fact-to remove a religion in a city where it has been established for a very long time.
Beyond that, you will just have to wait on TheLopez's answers .

Aussie_Lurker.