Second: There may be another alternative to independent units. Perhaps coding could be developed to prevent the missionary from becoming obsolete, which could allow both the missionary and the inquisitor to be available during theocracy. Under this option, the upgrade from missionary to inquisitor could still happen, without loosing the ability to produce more missionaries. IMO this is the best option of all.
hmm..maybe with python hook (GameUtil.canTrain()) we can allow both units - i will test this
UPDATED: canTrain allow to select missionary for building, but in same turn unit is automatically upgraded to inquisitor - so IF this is possible, must be done in SDK - will look later
and i also like idea from this forum - after successful removing old religion, inquisitor also can spread (with probability 66%) "true faith" - what you think?
...and i also like idea from this forum - after successful removing old religion, inquisitor also can spread (with probability 66%) "true faith" - what you think?
If you look at the configuration file, I like playing the mod with all of the options set to true.
-Require State Religion For Religion Removal = True
-Require City Owner State Religion Match For Religion Removal = True
-Require Open Borders For Religion Removal = True
Under this scenario: Notice the second and third options. If you want to remove a non-state religion from a city, which belongs to another civilization, then your state religion must already be established in that city and you must have an open borders agreement. For example, you have already sent a missionary to spread your religion in the foreign city, before you send over an inquisitor to remove a religion that does not match your state religion. Under this scenario, you cant spread your religion with the inquisitor, because your religion already exists. The purpose of the inquisitor is to remove any competing religion in that city. A successful inquisition will not only remove the heretic religion, but also the associated religious buildings.
Now if you were to set the first 2 options to False, then the inquisitor turns into, what I like to call, a religious terrorist or a spy. The inquisitor is sent to a foreign city, where your state religion does not exist and removes an existing religion. If the religion you remove is the state religion for the foreign civilization, then the response might not be very good. Imagine these words, How dare you come into our city, destroy our religious buildings and kill our religious people! He might even declare war on you. Under that situation, I certainly would.
Back to your idea: Having the inquisitor spread the true faith would certainly make the inquisitor even more powerful than it already is, but it wouldnt be historically accurate. However, it could be useful for players who want to play the mod with options 1 and 2 set to False (religious terrorist).
Question though, is there a benefit to removing a religion from one of your cities? If it can make your neighbors angry at you then is it really worth it?
Yes it could be. Everyone knows the amount of money you have can make a huge difference in this game. The benefit of removing a non-state religion from one of your cities, would be to deny another civilization from collecting additional gold. If a competing civ owns a shrine in {Change} a holy city and attempts to spread his state religion into foriegn cities, he will get 1 extra gold for each city where his competing state religion exists. If you have a huge game and a lot of cities, the amount of gold collected from foreign cities could be very significant.
flyerec said:
Wouldnt it be more realistic to only be able to send an inquisitor into another country who is your vassal?
History shows the Spanish inquisition extended into France, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Each of these countries were autonomous or sovereign states, yet the Catholic religion had spread throughout each of them. To answer your question, I would have to say limiting an inquisition to only vassal states is not more realistic, based upon the example I provided.
If you look at the configuration file, I like playing the mod with all of the options set to true.
-Require State Religion For Religion Removal = True
-Require City Owner State Religion Match For Religion Removal = True
-Require Open Borders For Religion Removal = True
Under this scenario: Notice the second and third options. If you want to remove a non-state religion from a city, which belongs to another civilization, then your state religion must already be established in that city and you must have an open borders agreement. For example, you have already sent a missionary to spread your religion in the foreign city, before you send over an inquisitor to remove a religion that does not match your state religion. Under this scenario, you cant spread your religion with the inquisitor, because your religion already exists. The purpose of the inquisitor is to remove any competing religion in that city. A successful inquisition will not only remove the heretic religion, but also the associated religious buildings.
Now if you were to set the first 2 options to False, then the inquisitor turns into, what I like to call, a religious terrorist or a spy. The inquisitor is sent to a foreign city, where your state religion does not exist and removes an existing religion. If the religion you remove is the state religion for the foreign civilization, then the response might not be very good. Imagine these words, How dare you come into our city, destroy our religious buildings and kill our religious people! He might even declare war on you. Under that situation, I certainly would.
Back to your idea: Having the inquisitor spread the true faith would certainly make the inquisitor even more powerful than it already is, but it wouldnt be historically accurate. However, it could be useful for players who want to play the mod with options 1 and 2 set to False (religious terrorist).
I have an idea for TheLopez... maybe you could use it for a future release of the Inquisition mod, or make it an entirely new MODCOMP when you have the time. But here it goes...
What about making certain religions create "tension" in a city? As it stands in the game right now, if you have a city with all the religions in the game, they're all living together, happy as can be. We know in the real world that's not always the case!
BUT... what if there was a mod that would create +1 if say, for example, Judaism and Islam were in the same city? Or even +1 for each religious building, etc? So if Islam and Judaism were in the same city, and Judaism had a Synogoge and Islam has a Mosque in the same city, each building would produce an additonal +1 ontop of what they already produce. This could also be added to the Happiness/Unhappiness that Religious Civics can produce for Non-State Religion. So, if say for example: Theocracy was modded to allow for all Non-State Religions, and if Islam was the State Religion, and Judaism was in the same city, there would be an additional +1 for Judaism in that city. In this case, the Inquisitor would need to be able to destroy religious buildings of the religion it's purging from the city.
This would simulate religious tensions, and would make the Inquisitor more useful, because as a Theocracy you would want to "purge" the infidels out of your lands. It makes no sense to have a Theocracy and have all these happy religions in the city, living in harmony. It would also have more impact on diplomatic negotiations between civs, too.
This new feature in turn could also make the Immigration Mod a bit more interesting, too, because certain religions could "flee" from percecution in that city (or civilization all together).
But to make it work for everybody, the religious tensions would have to be configurable by the end user. So the player can choose which religions have tensions with each other. They could be as varied, or as few as the end user wishes. They could have Christianity have tensions with EVERY religion, or just with Taoism.
I think this would make the game alot more interesting, and make choosing religions more critical.
I have an idea for TheLopez... maybe you could use it for a future release of the Inquisition mod, or make it an entirely new MODCOMP when you have the time. But here it goes...
What about making certain religions create "tension" in a city? As it stands in the game right now, if you have a city with all the religions in the game, they're all living together, happy as can be. We know in the real world that's not always the case!
BUT... what if there was a mod that would create +1 if say, for example, Judaism and Islam were in the same city? Or even +1 for each religious building, etc? So if Islam and Judaism were in the same city, and Judaism had a Synogoge and Islam has a Mosque in the same city, each building would produce an additonal +1 ontop of what they already produce. This could also be added to the Happiness/Unhappiness that Religious Civics can produce for Non-State Religion. So, if say for example: Theocracy was modded to allow for all Non-State Religions, and if Islam was the State Religion, and Judaism was in the same city, there would be an additional +1 for Judaism in that city. In this case, the Inquisitor would need to be able to destroy religious buildings of the religion it's purging from the city.
This would simulate religious tensions, and would make the Inquisitor more useful, because as a Theocracy you would want to "purge" the infidels out of your lands. It makes no sense to have a Theocracy and have all these happy religions in the city, living in harmony. It would also have more impact on diplomatic negotiations between civs, too.
This new feature in turn could also make the Immigration Mod a bit more interesting, too, because certain religions could "flee" from percecution in that city (or civilization all together).
But to make it work for everybody, the religious tensions would have to be configurable by the end user. So the player can choose which religions have tensions with each other. They could be as varied, or as few as the end user wishes. They could have Christianity have tensions with EVERY religion, or just with Taoism.
I think this would make the game alot more interesting, and make choosing religions more critical.
Your comments are intriguing. However, I have a basic problem with your attempt to penalize religion, without including a corresponding bonus. Seems to me that you are trying to limit or lesson the positive impact of religion in the game.
Here are some thoughts: I agree that the presence of other religions in a Theocracy should cause some sort of unrest. However, I disagree that you should have any differentiation between non-state religions, because a theocracy will despise all other religions and attempt to rid the empire of any foreign religious influence. As they stand now, your proposed penalties could quickly paralyze an empire, when you switch to a Theocracy. ...Kind of makes both Theocracy and playing the inquisitor mod really unappealing. A mod should have some sort of benefit.
The penalty: As stated previously, I do agree there should be unrest. I offer this solution. The presence of a non-state religion, in any city, irregardless of the number of them, should cause one unrest every 20 turns in that city. So when you convert to Theocracy, every city with a non-state religion, receives a one unrest penalty in the city. After 20 turns, if the city still has a non-state religion, then the city gets an additional unrest penalty. This penalty is applied every 20 turns, until your inquisitors have eliminated all non-state religions from the city.
Now for the bonus: If you are going to penalize a civ for religious unrest, then to balance the game properly, you must reward a civ for religious unity. When a city has eliminated all non-state religions, all unrest penalties are erased and the city gets a plus 3 happiness bonus to signify religious unity. To take this one step further; if you are able to successfully eliminate all other non-state religions from all of your cities, then your shrine bonus should double from 1 to 2 gold per city that has your state religion established. This signifies the prestige of "universal religious unity" in your empire.
These are just a few thoughts for TheLopez and this forum to consider in case TheLopez decides to expand the mod in this direction.
Very Respectively,
Orion Veteran
Note: Edits made to this post were to correct spelling and grammar.
Your comments are intriguing. However, I have a basic problem with your attempt to penalize religion, without including a corresponding bonus. Seems to me that you are trying to limit or lesson the positive impact of religion in the game.
Here are some thoughts: I agree that the presence of other religions in a Theocracy should cause some sort of unrest. However, I disagree that you should have any differentiation between non-state religions, because a theocracy will despise all other religions and attempt to rid the empire of any foreign religious influence. As they stand now, your proposed penalties could quickly paralyze an empire, when you switch to a Theocracy. ...Kind of makes both Theocracy and playing the inquisitor mod really unappealing. A mod should have some sort of benefit.
Religions already give a happiness and culture bonus. And if it's not good enough in Vanilla form, you could always beef it up in XML. As it stands with the game right now, religions have NO cons to them at all. Only pros. IMHO, Theocracy is one of those civics that should be at the extremes. If you use it wisely, you get extreme benefits, heavily favoring one religion over all others. If you use it incorrectly, it should have extreme drawbacks. The reverse applies to Free Religion, and to lesser extemes, Organized Religion and Pacifism. If you switch from Free Religion to Theocracy, of course there should be some penalties... until you start cleaning house with Inquisitors.
My idea is for certain religions to "not get along well" with each other, in an attempt to simulate real-world tensions that exist in certain areas of the world, as well as certain timeframes of history. Certain Civics, for example like Pacifism, could negate all hostilities between religions all together, and everybody is happy campers. Other ones like Theocracy should amplify these tensions.
That's why I made the suggestion of using an external INI parser, or an equivilent, so that the end-user can decide WHICH religions don't get along, and HOW BADLY the penalties are. With this approach, ultimately it's up to the end-user how far they want to take it. The other option would be not to download the mod at all.
OrionVeteran said:
The penalty: As stated previously, I do agree there should be unrest. I offer this solution. The presence of a non-state religion, in any city, irregardless of the number of them, should cause one unrest every 20 turns in that city. So when you convert to Theocracy, every city with a non-state religion, receives a one unrest penalty in the city. After 20 turns, if the city still has a non-state religion, then the city gets an additional unrest penalty. This penalty is applied every 20 turns, until your inquisitors have eliminated all non-state religions from the city.
You can already do this. If you set the Non-State Religion Happiness in the XML to -1, -2, etc. the city should display that amount of unhappiness for all the non-state religions in that city, as long as the IsStateReligion is set to "0", I believe (I'm not sitting infront of Civ4 right now). And that's a constant penalty. Having "unrest" happen every 20 turns is too predictable, and unrealistic. 20 turns in the Ancient Era is what... 400 years? 20 turns in the Modern area is what... 20 years?
OrionVeteran said:
Now for the bonus: If you are going to penalize a civ for religious unrest, then to balance the game properly, you must reward a civ for religious unity. When a city has eliminated all non-state religions, all unrest penalties are erased and the city gets a plus 3 happiness bonus to signify religious unity. To take this one step further; if you are able to successfully eliminate all other non-state religions from all of your cities, then your shrine bonus should double from 1 to 2 gold per city that has your state religion established. This signifies the prestige of "universal religious unity" in your empire.
Like I said with NonStateReligionHappiness, you can also set the StateReligionHappiness as well to +1, +2, etc. But what you're saying is to put an additional bonus to happiness once all non-state religions are wiped out? I don't know if the AI would see it the same way as we do, unless there are penalties involved (hence... the religious tensions I mentioned earlier).
Anyway, I'm sure my idea needs fine tuning. I just quickly typed it up, so that way I didn't forget anything later on in the day.
My idea is for certain religions to "not get along well" with each other, in an attempt to simulate real-world tensions that exist in certain areas of the world, as well as certain timeframes of history. Certain Civics, for example like Pacifism, could negate all hostilities between religions all together, and everybody is happy campers. Other ones like Theocracy should amplify these tensions.
That's why I made the suggestion of using an external INI parser, or an equivalent, so that the end-user can decide WHICH religions don't get along, and HOW BADLY the penalties are. With this approach, ultimately it's up to the end-user how far they want to take it.
First: I would like to draw your attention to the original intent for religions in Civilization 4. The game designers gave equal weight to all religions and they didnt punish some religions in comparison to others.
Firaxis said:
We have tried to handle them {religions} in as respectful, fair and even-handed manner as possible. All religions in the game have the same effects, the only difference being their technological requirements.
Your proposal clearly indicates an attempt to stratify religions, by creating good and bad religions. This stratification will result in distinct advantages and disadvantages between the religions. Seems to me, creating religious differences (i.e. creating more tension for some, but not all religions) is an under handed way to exploit your opponents in a civ4 game. The first person to get the best religion will put all the other players at a severe disadvantage. IMO, it is only fair that ALL religions have the same capability to assist or penalize a civ in a game. I also believe we can still simulate your idea of increased tensions without sacrificing equal abilities between the religions.
GraveEatr said:
If you set the Non-State Religion Happiness in the XML to -1, -2, etc. the city should display that amount of unhappiness for all the non-state religions in that city, as long as the IsStateReligion is set to "0" I believe (I'm not sitting infront of Civ4 right now). And that's a constant penalty.
Second: You have not specified which XML file you would modify and did not describe whether the change will affect tensions for the entire game or just for those who choose the Theocracy civic. At first glance, it appears you want to create religious tension penalties throughout the entire game. Again, this sounds like a great way to penalize other players for not having the correct religion.
Third: This mod affects Theocracy, which occurs about midway through the game. I have already pointed out how severe penalties could cripple a civ with the Theocracy civic. In my example, the cumulative penalty over time is representative of the increased unrest, when non-state religions are not removed. Forcing a civ to devote significant resources to building large numbers of inquisitors to purge their empire is a penalty in itself that makes Theocracy an unattractive civic. This civic becomes even less attractive in war, where you would be forced to send inquisitors in immediately after conquering a foreign city, if you had any hope of making that city productive. In reality, a Theocracy wouldnt need any inquisitors to eliminate any non-state religions in newly captured cities, because the military would put to the sword any non-believers. Historically speaking of course. By default, the game will not let a non-state religion spread in a Theocracy. So why would a Theocracy let any non-state religions exist in conquest?
Fourth: Based upon this historical concept, I offer the following suggestion for a benefit and a penalty for any city captured in war by a Theocracy:
Benefit: All non-state religions and associated religious buildings, in the captured city, should be eliminated. Only exception(s): The source religion in a Holy City.
Penalty: For each non-state religion removed, a one person population penalty is imposed. Example: If a captured city has 5 people, with 3 non-state-religions, then the city will loose an additional 3 people, and be left with only 2 people. The population penalty will always leave at least one person in a captured city. If the state religion of the Theocracy is found in the captured city, the state religion and associated religious buildings remain intact. If the state religion does not exist in a captured city, then a missionary will need to be sent to establish the state religion of the Theocracy. If a non-state Holy City remains, then you can try using multiple inquisitors to remove it.
Bottom Line: IMO, I do not think equal abilities between the religions should be sacrificed to create specified exploitations in the game. Religious tensions can be increased without loosing fairness for all.
First: I would like to draw your attention to the original intent for religions in Civilization 4. The game designers gave equal weight to all religions and they didn’t punish some religions in comparison to others.
Actually, Firaxis made all the religions equal in the game so as not to offend anybody. In this day and age, you can't be too careful. Here...
By Firaxis said:
We know that people have extremely strong opinions about religions - in fact, many a war has arisen when these beliefs collide. We at Firaxis have no desire to offend anyone. However, given the importance that religions have had in human development, we didn't want to simply leave them out of the game altogether; instead we have tried to handle them in as respectful, fair and even-handed manner as possible. In fact, all religions in the game have the same effects, the only difference being their requirements.
There are seven religions in Civilization IV (testing having determined that seven was the optimal number for gameplay). When determining which seven to include, we picked those religions that we thought would be most familiar to our audience. We do not mean to imply that these religions are more important, better or worse than any other religions.
We offer no value judgments on religion; we mean no disrespect to anyone's beliefs. We're game designers, not theologians.
Perhaps in your eyes it indicates that, but I never stated that. I just mentioned penalties between certain religions (based on end-user adjustments). Not once did I ever suggest giving one specific religion an unbalancing advantage over another. That is why end-user adjustments are the key to this. The player can make them what ever they want. Who am I to say which religion is better than another? Different user created scenarios can call for different religious relations, good or bad... which is where this idea will soar.
OrionVeteran said:
This stratification will result in distinct advantages and disadvantages between the religions. Seems to me, creating religious differences (i.e. creating more tension for some, but not all religions) is an under handed way to exploit your opponents in a civ4 game.
Again, that is why I suggested an INI parser. Let the end-user determine how religious relations are in their game world. By doing this, the mod creator can wipe his hands clean of doing this for them. Flexibility is key.
OrionVeteran said:
The first person to get the best religion will put all the other players at a severe disadvantage. IMO, it is only fair that ALL religions have the same capability to assist or penalize a civ in a game. I also believe we can still simulate your idea of “increased tensions” without sacrificing equal abilities between the religions.
Show me where this "best" religion idea comes from. And while you're at it, show me where I say the religions should unequal?
Put it this way... say you leave all the religions in the game as they were shipped from the factory. Perfectly equal in every way. Now, with this mod, all you do is add +1 between two religions... let's say for the sake of argument, the end-user decided Taoism & Hinduism shouldn't get along. Now, let's say in the Indian civ, Taoism spreads to Bombay. Hinduism is already in place. There will now be +1 in the city because the two religions are in the same city. With me so far?
Ok, great... now if we look at the way the game is set up in vanilla form, each religion in your city gives +1 and +1 . If you have something like Organized Religion or Theocracy (and even Pacifism, I think) a State Religion can give you an additional +1 .
NOW back to Bombay... with Taoism and Hinduism in the same city, without taking Civics into consideration, the only benefit you would receive from Taoism and Hinduism in the city is +2 Culture . You would have received an additional +2 as well, but since the religions don't get along you now get +2 instead. This balances the game out a little. You get to decide if the extra culture is worth the extra unhappiness that comes with the two religions residing in the same city. If you can live with it... fine. If not, you can send in an Inquisitor to remove one of them. Once one of them is removed, you now receive +1 and +1 Culture in the city again.
Let me make it easier for you to digest:
Spoiler:
(with Taoism & Hinduism in Bombay)
+2
+2
(with Taoism or Hinduism in Bombay, one removed via Inquisition)
+1
+1
Now if we start throwing Civics into the mix, you could now make certain Civics negate religious tensions by removing the between religions all together, like Pacifism, or even Free Religion. All you would need to do is give those civics a downside, so that the AI can decide if the costs outweigh the benefits.
OrionVeteran said:
Second: You have not specified which XML file you would modify and did not describe whether the change will affect tensions for the entire game or just for those who choose the Theocracy civic.
Sorry, I didn't think I needed to specify. I'll give you a hint though... they have to do with Civics and Religion.
If you set the NonStateReligionHappiness for Theocracy to either a positive or negative value, it will affect that Civic for the entire game.
OrionVeteran said:
At first glance, it appears you want to create religious tension penalties throughout the entire game. Again, this sounds like a great way to penalize other players for not having the correct religion.
There's just no getting through to you sometimes, is there?
There IS no "correct" religion. YOU can make the religious tensions what ever you want them to be, or non-existant at all. Keep in mind you don't have to make every religion in the game hate each other. It's not penalizing anybody, because as in the example with Bombay above, even with two religions that don't get along with eachother in the same city, you're still getting the bonus, but at the price of Unhappiness .
It can affect any Civic you want. Theocracy was just an example. It could also affect Organized Religion, Free Religion and Pacifism. Or even new Religious Civics that you add to the game.
OrionVeteran said:
Fourth: Based upon this historical concept, I offer the following suggestion for a benefit and a penalty for any city captured in war by a Theocracy:
Benefit: All non-state religions and associated religious buildings, in the captured city, should be eliminated. Only exception(s): The source religion in a Holy City.
Penalty: For each non-state religion removed, a one person population penalty is imposed. Example: If a captured city has 5 people, with 3 non-state-religions, then the city will loose an additional 3 people, and be left with only 2 people. The population penalty will always leave at least one person in a captured city. If the state religion of the Theocracy is found in the captured city, the state religion and associated religious buildings remain intact. If the state religion does not exist in a captured city, then a missionary will need to be sent to establish the state religion of the Theocracy. If a non-state Holy City remains, then you can try using multiple inquisitors to remove it.
You know, we should stop right now with this. At least in this thread. I don't want to hijack the Inquisiton mod thread any further, because we're now starting to detract from the Inquisition Mod itself.
If you think this debate should continue, create a new topic in the Civ4 - Creation & Customization main directory, or you can PM me about it.
I’m happy we agree on the proposed suggestion in point 4 and I believe we can find a good compromise for what you are proposing. I’ll try to be brief so we can finish this line of thought, as you suggested.
GraveEatr said:
Show me where this "best" religion idea comes from. And while you're at it, show me where I say the religions should {be} unequal?
…Gladly. I'll show you where the idea is implied even though you never said the word "unequal" out right. First, I will reveal the "fallacy" of the idea and then make a proposed compromise.
GraveEatr said:
Now, with this mod, all you do is add +1 between two religions... let's say for the sake of argument, the end-user decided Taoism & Hinduism shouldn't get along. Now, let's say in the Indian civ, Taoism spreads to Bombay. Hinduism is already in place. There will now be +1 in the city because the two religions are in the same city.
The Fallacy: In your example, Taoism and Hinduism are set to have +1 . These two religions now have an unequal disadvantage of additional unrest compared to the other remaining 5 religions. The wise player would be aware of this disadvantage between these two religions and would seek to avoid them and even eliminate them if they establish themselves in any of your cities. Logically then, the best strategy would be to choose a state religion from one of the other 5 religions that don’t have any unrest penalties associated with any of the other religion(s). The 5 other religions would be considered as the “good” religions to go after, while the 2 religions would be considered the “bad” religions to avoid, strategically speaking of course.
GraveEatr said:
Keep in mind you don't have to make every religion in the game hate each other.
The Compromise: I think your comment reveals the answer for a Theocracy, as a Theocracy despises any and all non-state religions. Since this mod concerns Theocracy, any religious tension should be limited the Theocracy civic. The presence of a non-state religion, in any city, irregardless of the number of them, should cause one “unrest” every 20 turns in that city. So when you convert to Theocracy, every city with a non-state religion, receives a one unrest penalty in the city. After 20 turns, if the city still has a non-state religion, then the city gets an additional unrest penalty. This penalty is applied every 20 turns, until your inquisitors have eliminated all non-state religions from the city.
GraveEatr said:
You know, we should stop right now with this. At least in this thread. I don't want to hijack the Inquisiton mod thread any further, because we're now starting to detract from the Inquisition Mod itself.
I agree this thread has gotten off topic, as this mod only concerns Theocracy and a new unit, the inquisitor. Religious tension affecting all religions and all religious civics should be proposed in a new mod. I suggest that you start a new thread proposing a new mod concerning religious tension of which I will happily contribute to. This will allow the refocus of this thread back to the inquisitor mod where it should be. A new thread will allow TheLopez to concentrate on thread comments concerning the inquisitor mod without the religious tension distraction. If others are interested in a religious tension mod, then it should be able to stand alone on it’s own merits.
Please, feel free to send me a personal email, when you start the new thread, so I can contribute.
I would like to resume discussion on the latest issue yet to be resolved on the inquisitor mod: namely the missionary problem under Theocracy.
In a previous discussion with “Mexico,” three options were brought up for how we might fix the problem.
1. Have the inquisitor spread state religion. Having the inquisitor spread the true faith would certainly make the inquisitor even more powerful than it already is, but it wouldn’t be historically accurate. Also the inquisitor is far more expensive to produce than the missionary. Unless you really need to spread your religion into a city, the use of the inquisitor instead of the missionary does not make good economic sense. However, it could be useful for players who want to play the mod with options 1 and 2 set to False (religious terrorist). See earlier thread for complete discussion on this option.
2. Independent Units: Independent units will allow both the missionary and the inquisitor to be produced during theocracy. Both capabilities of spreading or removing a religion would be maintained. What’s the down side? No upgrade capability for the missionary. The upgrade capability would simply have to be removed from the mod. This option is probably the easiest way to solve the problem.
3. Alternative to independent units: Perhaps coding could be developed to prevent the missionary from becoming obsolete, which could allow both the missionary and the inquisitor to be available during theocracy. Under this option, the upgrade from missionary to inquisitor could still happen, without loosing the ability to produce more missionaries. IMO this is the best option. The Mexico indicated there might be a way to code this:
Mexico said:
hmm..maybe with python hook (GameUtil.canTrain()) we can allow both units - i will test this
UPDATED: canTrain allow to select missionary for building, but in same turn unit is automatically upgraded to inquisitor - so IF this is possible, must be done in SDK.
After playing two complete games this Thanksgiving weekend, I can accurately describe the exact symptoms of the missionary problem, while in Theocracy. It is not as bad as it first appeared to be. A minor programming change and I think this problem will be fixed. First some facts: All concerning the state religion, while in Theocracy, unless otherwise stated:
1. It is possible to build a Monastery or a Temple or both in a city.
2. You must have a Monastery to build the Missionary. Exception: Organized Religion can produce the Missionary without the Monastery. After converting to a Theocracy civic from Organized Religion, any city that does not have a Monastery can no longer build the Missionary. This can make it appear as if, you lost the capability to produce the Missionary, but in reality, all you really need is to build a Monastery.
3. You must have a temple and be a Theocracy to build the Inquisitor.
4. You can build and field a maximum of only 3 Missionaries and/or 3 Inquisitors at any one time. Those units in the build cue are added together with what is already produced to get 3 units, respectively.
5. If you have both a Monastery and a Temple in a city, the city will allow you to build the Inquisitor, but not a Missionary. Problem!
6. If you have a Monastery, but no Temple in a city, the city will allow you to build Missionary. (This fact proves the missionary is not obsolete).
7. If you have already built 3 Inquisitors, and you have a city with a Monastery and a Temple, you can build the Missionary in that city. Take away one of the 3 Inquisitors and you cant produce a Missionary in that city.
8. The problem is not about preventing the missionary from becoming obsolete, for testing clearly shows that the missionary is not obsolete. Rather, the problem is about making the Missionary appear, as an option, on the list along with the Inquisitor, when a city has both a Monastery and a Temple. This last fact clearly narrows down the focus of the missionary problem for TheLopez to solve.
After playing two complete games this Thanksgiving weekend, I can accurately describe the exact symptoms of the missionary problem, while in Theocracy. It is not as bad as it first appeared to be. A minor programming change and I think this problem will be fixed. First some facts: All concerning the state religion, while in Theocracy, unless otherwise stated:
1. It is possible to build a Monastery or a Temple or both in a city.
2. You must have a Monastery to build the Missionary. Exception: Organized Religion can produce the Missionary without the Monastery. After converting to a Theocracy civic from Organized Religion, any city that does not have a Monastery can no longer build the Missionary. This can make it appear as if, you lost the capability to produce the Missionary, but in reality, all you really need is to build a Monastery.
3. You must have a temple and be a Theocracy to build the Inquisitor.
4. You can build and field a maximum of only 3 Missionaries and/or 3 Inquisitors at any one time. Those units in the build cue are added together with what is already produced to get 3 units, respectively.
5. If you have both a Monastery and a Temple in a city, the city will allow you to build the Inquisitor, but not a Missionary. Problem!
6. If you have a Monastery, but no Temple in a city, the city will allow you to build Missionary. (This fact proves the missionary is not obsolete).
7. If you have already built 3 Inquisitors, and you have a city with a Monastery and a Temple, you can build the Missionary in that city. Take away one of the 3 Inquisitors and you cant produce a Missionary in that city.
8. The problem is not about preventing the missionary from becoming obsolete, for testing clearly shows that the missionary is not obsolete. Rather, the problem is about making the Missionary appear, as an option, on the list along with the Inquisitor, when a city has both a Monastery and a Temple. This last fact clearly narrows down the focus of the missionary problem for TheLopez to solve.
this is the same as i wroted, but with other words
i don't said that missionary is obsoleted forever....but IF you have POSSIBILITY to build inquisitor, you CAN NOT build missionaries (because of upgrade missionary -> inquisitor)
this is the same as i wroted, but with other words
i don't said that missionary is obsoleted forever....but IF you have POSSIBILITY to build inquisitor, you CAN NOT build missionaries (because of upgrade missionary -> inquisitor)
I'm sorry to tell you that your statment is not totally correct. There is a work around. I can produce a missionary and an inquisitor at the same time, but in different cities. Here is how you can repeat my results, while in Theocracy:
Setup:
City1: Build a Monastery, but do not build a Temple
City2: Build a Temple, but do not build a Monastery
City3: Build both a Temple and a Monastery
City4: Same as City3
City5: Same as City3
City6: Same as City3
The Results:
In City1, you can build a Missionary, but not an inquisitor.
In City2, you can build a Inquisitor, but not a Missionary.
In City3, you can build a Inquisitor, but not a Missionary, unless you already have three inquisitors in the cue in different cities, (i.e City4, City5 and City6) or already have three inquisitors produced. If you have 3 inquisitors produced and on their way to their respective cities, then cities 3, 4, 5, or 6 will let you build Missionaries.
Assume you have not exceded the count limitation of 3 inquisitors or 3 missionaries: The problem occurs in City3, 4, 5 or 6; where we need the Missionary to appear, as an option, on the list along with the Inquisitor, when a city has both a Monastery and a Temple.
Try it, as I have duplicated these results now on three different games.
I'm glad you're looking at this, Head_Serf... my only concern is that the AI uses it. The AI doesn't seem to build missionary units (at least in the European Medieval mod, I've yet to see an AIautoplay civ build one) so I'm worried that it likewise, won't build Inquisitors.
The AI doesn't seem to build missionary units (at least in the European Medieval mod, I've yet to see an AIautoplay civ build one) so I'm worried that it likewise, won't build Inquisitors.
In my latest single player game, I saw a couple of AI missionaries running around in foreign territory, spreading the faith for a rival civ. Currently, I have a clean install of Warlords, with the 2.08 patch and the inquisition mod. So, if in your game, the AI does not produce missionary units, then you might want to re-examine the European Medieval mod for a possible problem or conflict.
There is only one problem that I am aware of concerning the inquisition mod and that is getting the missionary to show up along with the inquisitor on the build list in a cities having both a Temple and a Monastery. This will likely be an easy fix for TheLopez.
First, let me say I'm sorry for falling off the face of the earth there for awhile Lopez. It's been a crazy couple of months (the little girl started to walk... and wife is due with #2 in a couple more months).
Next, I think I should bring up to OrionVet, that despite me making suggestions to Lopez, and being an inspiration for the mod and having it to my specs, there was some... negotiating... that went on between myself and Lopez before he started working on it. Yes, I made the suggestion of a population decrease and I wanted it to be limited to same state religions when going into different civs, but this is Lopez's mod. He would ask for explanations as to why I suggest something and I'd give my reasons and he'd considered them with respect to the entire game balance. Plus, he was the one doing the work, and I was NOT gonig to push someone who was doing me (someone he'd never met) a favor.
Anyway... Thanks again for this Lopez. You're an AMAZING modder. :b:
First, let me say I'm sorry for falling off the face of the earth there for awhile Lopez. It's been a crazy couple of months (the little girl started to walk... and wife is due with #2 in a couple more months).
Next, I think I should bring up to OrionVet, that despite me making suggestions to Lopez, and being an inspiration for the mod and having it to my specs, there was some... negotiating... that went on between myself and Lopez before he started working on it. Yes, I made the suggestion of a population decrease and I wanted it to be limited to same state religions when going into different civs, but this is Lopez's mod. He would ask for explanations as to why I suggest something and I'd give my reasons and he'd considered them with respect to the entire game balance. Plus, he was the one doing the work, and I was NOT gonig to push someone who was doing me (someone he'd never met) a favor.
Anyway... Thanks again for this Lopez. You're an AMAZING modder. :b:
1. Congratulations to you and your wife, as a new addition to the family is always a special time. After delivery, infants dont stay small for long, so enjoy it while it lasts.
2. With all due respect, I wouldnt sell yourself short, as TheLopez gave you credit for inspiring him to write this mod and you also received credit, as one of the testers. Much of what you envisioned and negotiated came to reality, thanks to the amazing programming skills of TheLopez. All the contributors are to be commended for their individual roles they played in this outstanding mod. Id like to think my ideas helped a little to make the mod a bit more realistic in terms of historical accuracy. Yet, none of this would have been possible at all without TheLopez. He has done everyone a big favor, by developing this mod. I thank all of you, who played a role, large or small, in the development; for I truly enjoy playing each game of Civ4, with the inquisitor mod.
Let me also congratulate you on your upcoming arrival Donegal . Wow, seems everyone around me is "in the family way" right now .
Also, I know what you mean about your second point, as I often feel myself being a little 'embarrassed' when TheLopez acknowledges me for doing what-in my eyes-is little more than having fun with one of his great creations (albiet with the specified intention of finding flaws, possible areas of improvement and bugs). I get even more embarrassed when I get an acknowledgement merely for suggesting something that TheLopez then turns into reality . I guess though that this shows what an amazing, stand-up kind of guy TheLopez is .
Oh btw OrionVeteran. I apologise for any previous harshness towards you on my part. I do kinda get very defensive when it comes to TheLopez, who I admire so greatly, and your original posts just came across sounding much more critical than you probably meant them to. I notice that the 'tone' of your posts has changed markedly, and I hope that we can put any previous 'Bad-blood' behind us .
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if say, for example, Judaism and Islam were in the same city? Or even +1 
. If you have something like Organized Religion or Theocracy (and even Pacifism, I think) a State Religion can give you an additional +1 .
He has done everyone a big favor, by developing this mod. I thank all of you, who played a role, large or small, in the development; for I truly enjoy playing each game of Civ4, with the inquisitor mod. 
