Modscenario: Playable Byzantines, 610AD.

[BurnEmDown]

Well if we take my suggestion of having a UHV that doesn't let the player discover any key technology, it could be merged with another criteria (just like how "Constantinople having highest culture" holds within it a hidden "survive" criteria).
Maybe something like "hold on to X by Y without researching gunpowder, tech, tech"
Then, it is possible to also insert another criteria regarding the conquests, Christianity, or something else (as Christianity can be seen as a cultural UHV, and there's probably going to be one already, and the conquests relate to a military UHV, which holding on to possessions seems to fit already).
So we've ruled out military, cultural, and technological related UHVs, that leaves wonders (which the Byzantines didn't really build), exploration (which the Byzantines didn't do), Colonization (which the Byzantines didn't do), and I guess there are other categories but none come to mind right now, any suggestions guys?
On a side note, It had just occured to me that another UHV could be "build 2 cathedrals by X", this basically means holding on to 8 cities, each having a temple and two of them having cathedrals (Athens and Const. would be the best places to build I'm guessing). So this criteria forces survival and holding on to possessions while also including a cultural aspect (and religious).
Then the 2nd criteria could be related to the conquests, and include "without discovering gunpowder, tech, tech".
And then I still can't think of a 3rd criteria, suggestions people???
BTW, Sorry for the long writing with nothing accomplished

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

On a side note, It had just occured to me that another UHV could be "build 2 cathedrals by X", this basically means holding on to 8 cities, each having a temple and two of them having cathedrals (Athens and Const. would be the best places to build I'm guessing). So this criteria forces survival and holding on to possessions while also including a cultural aspect (and religious).

This is a good idea, especially because the Byzantines can't build settlers, so it forces you to hold on to part of your empire.

EDIT: Also, if we incorporate the schisms mod into this scenario we could have a UHV to do with spreading Orthodox Christianity, which would be much better than just Christianity in general.

 

[wolfigor]

In every UHV, two of the victories are something the nation managed to accomplish and then one UHV is always something that the nation failed to accomplish.
The Byzantines' UHV should not defy this logic to be consistent with all other civs.

If we could start the Byzantine adventure before 600AD (sometime in late 4th century or early 5th century) then the first UHV could be the reproduce the exploit of Justinian I and retake parts of the west roman empire:


In terms of UHV: control Spain, Italy, and Carthage in 600AD
Purely a military enterprise that will force you to dedicate large amount of military forces to the conquest of the west.
At the same time, if the Byzantine have the same stability map as the Greeks, it will hurt stability.

The 2nd UHV could be cultural: Make Constantinople the most cultural town in 1000AD

Finally the 3rd (unhistorical): Control Italy, Carthage, Egypt, and near East in 1000AD
This will force you to keep all empire together (you are allowed to loose Spain) against the Arabic advance.
A military and stability challenge, made more complicated by the fact that Constantinople cannot dedicate itself 100% to military production because of the 2nd UHV.






If, instead, we start the Byzantines in 610AD the UHV has to be different.
1st UHV: Control Near east in 1000AD
This is a bit of a stretch; historically the Byzantines were able to defeat (temporary) the Arabs in Sicily and Near East at 1000AD, however never controlling those lands completely.



From the point of view of UHV it's a good way to force the player to go head-on against the Arabs with the aim of regaining what the empire is likely to loose from them.
It would be good for gameplay to have a hugely negative diplomacy modifier between Byzantines and Arabs.
Else it would be too easy for the human player to win against the AI in the region.

2nd UHV: Make Constantinople the most cultural town in 1000AD

3rd UHV: Control Constantinople, Balkans, Anatolia, Near East (Jerusalem), and Control or make vassal: Egypt, Carthage, Rome. All of it in 1500AD
This will force the player to a fight 'till death against the Turks, and to reconquer the lost empire: a very historical, but frustrated, aspiration of the Byzantine state.

 

[BurnEmDown]

I still think something must be done to represent how the Byzantines didn't advance in technology very much. This should be represented by them starting with a good amount of techs but their UHV should limit their discovery of techs like education and gunpowder, which they didn't discover in reality. Not only will this force the player into creative thinking of how to win the UHV's while all the other civs keep discovering techs, it will also be very unique (no other civ has a "do not discover Y until X" UHV.

 

[Lean]

I still think something must be done to represent how the Byzantines didn't advance in technology very much. This should be represented by them starting with a good amount of techs but their UHV should limit their discovery of techs like education and gunpowder, which they didn't discover in reality. Not only will this force the player into creative thinking of how to win the UHV's while all the other civs keep discovering techs, it will also be very unique (no other civ has a "do not discover Y until X" UHV.

Unture. In fact, the Byzantines led education throughout the Middle Ages. "...The widespread literacy and education among men and women of various segments of society would not be matched in Europe until, perhaps, eighteenth-century France."

 

[Zagoroth]

that was most likely knowledge that the Greeks had, they did not invent new concepts.

 

[BurnEmDown]

Yes, as far as I know (and sorry if I'm misleading anyone here by being not correct) Education in the game stands for universities and schools which where common in Arabia until the Europeans adopted the same method of passing knowlage.

 

[Lean]

They did actually. They invented an entirely new governing process, and avanced quite far. They were the most advanced European civlization. They wouldn't just mooch off the Greek knowlage of ancient times..

Edit: That was meant for Zagoroth, not you Burn.

 

[Zagoroth]

May I ask in what ways they advanced and what their new governing process was?

 

[BurnEmDown]

Well in CIV RFC that would be represented by them starting with many good techs (guilds, civil service, music, engineering, all the techs they start with now). But I also know that they rejected new technologies, for example the gunpowder which was an Arabic invention (Chinese, I know, but they saw it as Arabian).
Edit: Oh and forgot to say, their rejection of new technologies should be represented in-game, I guess as UHV. (so players who want to play them with a not-so-historical point of view can).

 

[Lean]

May I ask in what ways they advanced and what their new governing process was?

The themes or themata were the main administrative divisions of the middle Byzantine Empire. They were established in the seventh century in the aftermath of the Muslim conquests of Byzantine territory and replaced the earlier provincial system established by emperors Diocletian and Constantine the Great.

With the Empire improving in stability in the 9th century came measures to improve the quality of higher education. In 863 chairs of grammar, rhetoric and philosophy (includes mathematics, astronomy and music) were founded and given a permanent location in the imperial palace. These chairs continued to receive official state support for the next century and a half, after which the leading role in the provision of higher education was taken up the Church. During the 12th century the Patriarchal School was the leading center of education which included men of letters such as Theodore Prodromos and Eustathius of Thessalonica.

In addition, the Byzantines came up with what is commenly known today as Greek Fire. This "medieval napalm" played a key in repulsing the Arab invaders, and holding onto Constantinople during the seiges. To this day, modern historians and military scientists still do not know what the exact ingredants went in to produce the advanced weapon.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

In 600 AD nobody starts with philosophy or literature.
So maybe we can do a UHV like:
Discover philosophy, literature, astronomy and chemistry first.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

I think that's better than don't discover a technology and we already have a cultural and military goal, so it fits fine.

I think this looks like a good set of UHV's

1. Build two cathedrals (must hold onto eight cities with christianity)
2. Make Constantinople the most cultural city in the world in 1450 (need to hold onto it as well)
3. Be the first to discover Philosophy, Literature, Astronomy and Chemistry

 

[Lean]

Something has to be done to show Byzantium's conquests also, to make it harder for them.

 

[Positronic]

Something has to be done to show Byzantium's conquests also, to make it harder for them.

Yes, I still think some manner of Justinitian's reconquests need to be put in. Controlling Italy, North Africa, and Spain by some certain date (kind of weird, considering Justinian died in 565AD... but, oh well).

 

[Lean]

In every UHV, two of the victories are something the nation managed to accomplish and then one UHV is always something that the nation failed to accomplish.
The Byzantines' UHV should not defy this logic to be consistent with all other civs.

If we could start the Byzantine adventure before 600AD (sometime in late 4th century or early 5th century) then the first UHV could be the reproduce the exploit of Justinian I and retake parts of the west roman empire:


In terms of UHV: control Spain, Italy, and Carthage in 600AD
Purely a military enterprise that will force you to dedicate large amount of military forces to the conquest of the west.
At the same time, if the Byzantine have the same stability map as the Greeks, it will hurt stability.


The 2nd UHV could be cultural: Make Constantinople the most cultural town in 1000AD

Finally the 3rd (unhistorical): Control Italy, Carthage, Egypt, and near East in 1000AD
This will force you to keep all empire together (you are allowed to loose Spain) against the Arabic advance.
A military and stability challenge, made more complicated by the fact that Constantinople cannot dedicate itself 100% to military production because of the 2nd UHV.






If, instead, we start the Byzantines in 610AD the UHV has to be different.
1st UHV: Control Near east in 1000AD
This is a bit of a stretch; historically the Byzantines were able to defeat (temporary) the Arabs in Sicily and Near East at 1000AD, however never controlling those lands completely.



From the point of view of UHV it's a good way to force the player to go head-on against the Arabs with the aim of regaining what the empire is likely to loose from them.
It would be good for gameplay to have a hugely negative diplomacy modifier between Byzantines and Arabs.
Else it would be too easy for the human player to win against the AI in the region.

2nd UHV: Make Constantinople the most cultural town in 1000AD

3rd UHV: Control Constantinople, Balkans, Anatolia, Near East (Jerusalem), and Control or make vassal: Egypt, Carthage, Rome. All of it in 1500AD
This will force the player to a fight 'till death against the Turks, and to reconquer the lost empire: a very historical, but frustrated, aspiration of the Byzantine state.

I think this would work well.

 

[Metal Alloy Man]

Did you mean the 1st, 3rd or everything, because it'll be near impossible to make Constaninople the most cultured city in only 1000 AD.

 

[Lean]

Well yes, the 2nd UHV could be moved back a bit more, to say, 1250 AD or so. But other than that, they're fine. Also, I think we shouldshoot for the 470-500 AD spawn date, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Shawmane]

Well yes, the 2nd UHV could be moved back a bit more, to say, 1250 AD or so. But other than that, they're fine. Also, I think we shouldshoot for the 470-500 AD spawn date, but that's just my opinion.

A start before 600 A.D. would be impossible for the 600 A.D. start no?

Say they started with Constaninople, Athens, 1 city in Anatolia (?) and Alexandria, Egypt (all others Independent or even Barbarian and possibly at war; at war with Rome) and maybe an extra pike or 2, x-bow or 2,an extra Cataphract, 2 Trebuchets, a galley and a great general perhaps? All classical techs + Theology, Machinery, Engineering, Philosophy, Literature and Drama (they are the "Greeks" afterall). No Feudalism, no Civil Service, and no Music.

For the UHV:

1. Build 2 Christian Cathedrals (8 Christian cities, start with 4 have to conquer 4) and the Hagia Sophia (would have to remove it from being automatically built obviously) by 1150 A.D. (Historical-esque builder + military conquest goal).

Similar to China actually but a later date since no music (I think China still starts with music right? If not, push the date back to 1000 A.D. just like China).

2. Make Constaninople the most cultural city in 1100 A.D. (Historical-esque cultural goal and would be hard I think without a GA .)

3. Collapse the Arabs and the Turks by 1350 A.D. (ahistorical military goal and perhaps hard to take out the Turks by that date since you most likely wont have gunpowder and some of your units will probably flip when you attack)

I haven't tried out this scenario yet, so I'm "flying blind" so to speak on these suggestions. With auto-war vs Rome and possibly vs. anyone in the new patch, it would make it a challenge I think to wage so many wars in so short a time and build a wonder, 2 cathedrals + culture + military and research music and the military techs in time to build the cathedrals and conquer the Arabs and Turks.

I also don't really like the unique power for them. IMO it should be like the Arabs where it spreads the state religion and a unique building (Hippodrome? I can't recall what their building is but not the temples/cathedrals like the Arabs) since they already start with mostly coastal cities and the GL in Alexandria for extra trade routes, plus they don't know anyone to trade with for a while and the civs they will know, they will likely be fighting for most of the game and unable to trade with.

1 condition of this would be Jerusalem flipping to the Arabs when they spawn (it doesn't in the 600 start I don't think) forcing you to Crusade (since Europe never does). Also Pseudo-Historical

I've been keeping up with this thread but have held off on trying it out til it was a bit more "complete." I'm very glad someone has taken this on. The exclusion of the (playable) Byzantines from this mod has always rather baffled me . Kudos for the work!

 

[Zagoroth]

There is a rather large likely hood that you will have gunpowder by then, and will have enough time to make a plethora of cannons.