[MODULE] Scions Healthcare

[Vorpal+5]

Well for example I like the Animals Totems of Orbis, or the fact you have more buildings to build (duh!) overall (plus the specials whih are exclusive between each other like Castra Legionis).
On the other hand, I like the item shop of RifE (it is in RifE or I'm mistaking with yet another mod), like buying plate or bow to some of my units.

Also in Orbis, you get some races which are not in the mod, like the Dao.

Plus you can gift units, as in vanilla Civ. I really don't use it often, but it is very cool nonetheless to help a friend on a particular need, say give him some disciples, a boat or two or an archer with city promotions.

Oh and I forgot one big thing that Orbis has and not your mod Valkrionn: Spying!! I'm a spy nut, I really like that

 

[Valkrionn]

Well for example I like the Animals Totems of Orbis, or the fact you have more buildings to build (duh!) overall (plus the specials whih are exclusive between each other like Castra Legionis).
On the other hand, I like the item shop of RifE (it is in RifE or I'm mistaking with yet another mod), like buying plate or bow to some of my units.

Also in Orbis, you get some races which are not in the mod, like the Dao.

Plus you can gift units, as in vanilla Civ. I really don't use it often, but it is very cool nonetheless to help a friend on a particular need, say give him some disciples, a boat or two or an archer with city promotions.

Oh and I forgot one big thing that Orbis has and not your mod Valkrionn: Spying!! I'm a spy nut, I really like that

Animal Totems are kinda in 1.3; Recon only, and different (Blood/Heart/Soul), but same idea.

The Mastery buildings and their promotions are in RifE; Come from FF.

Already have permission to merge the Dao.

Gifting can get rather OP... Particularly for limited units or certain UU's. That's why it was removed in FfH.

Espionage ala BtS will never be in RifE. I feel it is a poorly designed system... Anything that forces you to accumulate points to protect yourself from enemies, but also use the same points to carry out actions, thereby making yourself more vulnerable, is a bad system. It was a hack, and never really implemented well.

 

[Torugu]

+ proper espionage requires tremendous amounts of micromanagement, which might be fun if you're into it but is incredibly annoying for everybody else.

 

[Vorpal+5]

ok, points taken

 

[Jabie]

Espionage ala BtS will never be in RifE. I feel it is a poorly designed system... Anything that forces you to accumulate points to protect yourself from enemies, but also use the same points to carry out actions, thereby making yourself more vulnerable, is a bad system. It was a hack, and never really implemented well.

The passive abilities could be used without ever implementing the active ones. Thus if your overall espionage budget was high enough you could Investigate Cities, See Demographics and See Resarch. I wrote a bunch of notes on how to do this with XML hacks a long time ago in the forums. Then the Espionage code got blocked out in the .dll in version .34-ish and the project died off.

Of course, there's a big cost-benefit question here. Is removing the code block on espionage - which would presumably entail having the background code run a whole bunch of extra subroutines and thus make RifE a little less efficient - worth the benefit of piggybacking off the in-built BtS code for passive espionage?

 

[Valkrionn]

The passive abilities could be used without ever implementing the active ones. Thus if your overall espionage budget was high enough you could Investigate Cities, See Demographics and See Resarch. I wrote a bunch of notes on how to do this with XML hacks a long time ago in the forums. Then the Espionage code got blocked out in the .dll in version .34-ish and the project died off.

Of course, there's a big cost-benefit question here. Is removing the code block on espionage - which would presumably entail having the background code run a whole bunch of extra subroutines and thus make RifE a little less efficient - worth the benefit of piggybacking off the in-built BtS code for passive espionage?

It is not, no. Not just the passive effects.

 

[Vorpal+5]

Perhaps this thread must be split...

I don't think you are very fair with spying has it has been done by Firaxis, Valkrionn. It is not just 'an hack' or a poorly implemented feature...
You basic premise, that doing offensive spying should not weaken your defense is (1) not totally absurd and (2) can be circumvented...

First ... sorry but yes... it can be seen has somehow logical that if you do offensive spying, then you have less personel to make counter spy missions. Ok, in the real world, this is not the same personel anyway, but still... I don't strike me as absurd that if you commit resources to attack your enemy, you have less for your own defense.

And (2) ... in any case, if you don't like that, why don't you hack sightly the system? For example the spy points are just used on attack, and the number of spies you have in your cities is the only factor to consider to how your defense is efficient? This way (or any other system) you would differentiate clearly attack and defense. And I'm sure you can come with a better system... But really, throwing the whole spying concept just because there is something in it you don't like is sad, because we waste a huge feature!

And for those who don't want to do spying... hey, a simple check box at start of the game can do the trick... as with people who uncheck 'barbarians' etc.

 

[Valkrionn]

Perhaps this thread must be split...

I don't think you are very fair with spying has it has been done by Firaxis, Valkrionn. It is not just 'an hack' or a poorly implemented feature...
You basic premise, that doing offensive spying should not weaken your defense is (1) not totally absurd and (2) can be circumvented...

First ... sorry but yes... it can be seen has somehow logical that if you do offensive spying, then you have less personel to make counter spy missions. Ok, in the real world, this is not the same personel anyway, but still... I don't strike me as absurd that if you commit resources to attack your enemy, you have less for your own defense.

And (2) ... in any case, if you don't like that, why don't you hack sightly the system? For example the spy points are just used on attack, and the number of spies you have in your cities is the only factor to consider to how your defense is efficient? This way (or any other system) you would differentiate clearly attack and defense. And I'm sure you can come with a better system... But really, throwing the whole spying concept just because there is something in it you don't like is sad, because we waste a huge feature!

And for those who don't want to do spying... hey, a simple check box at start of the game can do the trick... as with people who uncheck 'barbarians' etc.

1. My point is not that it is absurd, but that it makes for bad game play. It leads to a situation in which you are best served by NOT making use of your points, and instead simply hoarding them in order to protect yourself. Not fun. This is what I meant by it being a hack; It is forced on the player, yet making use of it weakens you! That is simply NOT good design, in my opinion, and will never be in RifE in that form.
2. Yes, can be circumvented. But that requires time and effort from the team, which we frankly don't have. Better features to work on.

So no, it is not simply because I dislike it. It could be done well, and I even have a design document detailing how I would do it. That does not change the fact that we simply do not have the time to do so, and I refuse to utilize espionage as-is.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Does this mean that in some future version, say 2.0 or 25.0 we will have some sort of espionage system in place?

 

[Valkrionn]

Does this mean that in some future version, say 2.0 or 25.0 we will have some sort of espionage system in place?

Not at all. It means that I know how I would do it, but does not imply in any way that I particularly intend to do so.

 

[odalrick]

Just wanted to point out that this module works with Rise from Erebus 1.30.100 .

 

[Sjru]

Some balance suggestions:

Otherwordly Beacon: (Lighthouse replacement) cost as much as the Lighthouse itself, but have more bonuses. Perhaps you could raise the cost of this building?

Citizen council: (elder council); seems to be a nerfed version of the Elder council; It cost as much as Elder's but doesn't allow you to turn a citizen into healer. Suggestion: +4 perhaps could do the trick? (Else allow another elder).

Ghost house: Overrall this building is OK, but seeing as being Ghost house... Perhaps this building could give some bonus from nearby Haunted Lands?

Poison well: The Well is already expensive, and this UB raises the cost to 75 for +1 instead of +1.
The cost for this building seems to be, high? Comparing to what you get.
BTW: What does the description of the Poison Well "Celebrate the victory of death over life" means? Does it have a special ability or something?

Water sculpture: It requires Water mana, which means that the AI is not likely to build it (they don't upgrade mana nodes). However, it cost the same as the Sewer building, but gives more bonuses.
Perhaps, raise the cost of this building, and remove Water mana requirement?

That's all.

 

[odalrick]

Some balance suggestions:

Great, everyone eles has been to busy discussing espionage.

Otherwordly Beacon: (Lighthouse replacement) cost as much as the Lighthouse itself, but have more bonuses. Perhaps you could raise the cost of this building?

Does it provide more bonuses? It's not intended to. It gives more yields, but scions get less yields from water to begin with so it needs more to give the same effect.

Ghost Crew shouldn't be stronger than regular crews, but I think they are slated for removal. Don't know what I'll do with the promotion. Any ideas?

Citizen council: (elder council); seems to be a nerfed version of the Elder council; It cost as much as Elder's but doesn't allow you to turn a citizen into healer. Suggestion: +4 perhaps could do the trick? (Else allow another elder).

When I removed it, Scions didn't really need Healers and it was mostly a way to distinguish the Citizen Council from Elder Council. I'll probably restore it next version as Scions need health again and I'll add a unique Great Healer.

Ghost house: Overrall this building is OK, but seeing as being Ghost house... Perhaps this building could give some bonus from nearby Haunted Lands?

Any ideas? It exists for the sole purpose of changing the name of the Smokehouse. Maybe a bonus for the Recon line? Allow them to send out a ghost familiar, to compensate for the loss of a Hawk.

Poison well: The Well is already expensive, and this UB raises the cost to 75 for +1 instead of +1.
The cost for this building seems to be, high? Comparing to what you get.
BTW: What does the description of the Poison Well "Celebrate the victory of death over life" means? Does it have a special ability or something?

The help text is just flavour. The loyal citizens work harder (id est +1) when they remember they don't need to drink, eat, sleep or worry about being poisoned.

The cost is higher because I thought is worth more than .

Water sculpture: It requires Water mana, which means that the AI is not likely to build it (they don't upgrade mana nodes). However, it cost the same as the Sewer building, but gives more bonuses.
Perhaps, raise the cost of this building, and remove Water mana requirement?

The AI does a lot of things badly. Researching Sanitation as Scions could very well be one of those things. Should I limit what use to that which the AI can use, or balance for what a human can do? For the Scions, I'd say balance for humans. The AI can't work the Scions anyway.

As far as the bonuses: My thinking is that by the time you have Sanitation and Water mana health has been made a non-issue by Necropolis. The health changes are just to show the ancestry of the building. Happiness tends to be a non-issue for all non-capital cities.

Leaves the for river. Do you think this is better than Sewers, considering the place in the tech tree?

 

[EugeneStyles]

Does it provide more bonuses? It's not intended to. It gives more yields, but scions get less yields from water to begin with so it needs more to give the same effect.

For fallow civs, I would consider every square to produce 2 food, or at least 1 food. Because not having to worry about food is just as good as producing plenty of food.

The cost is higher because I thought is worth more than .

I would consider 1 to be worth about 1 1 1 . For Scions, probably equal to 2 , I'd say.

 

[odalrick]

For fallow civs, I would consider every square to produce 2 food, or at least 1 food. Because not having to worry about food is just as good as producing plenty of food.

Not really, since implies population is easier to get. Scions will never work a square just because they happened to have an extra pop and working the tile is free.

Different for each Fallow civ I suppose, but Scions have lower population than other civs. Each pop must produce more for balance to be maintained.

I would consider 1 to be worth about 1 1 1 . For Scions, probably equal to 2 , I'd say.

One thing that is definitely true is < .

Other than that, all I can say is that I build more Poisoned Wells as Scions than I do Wells as other civs.

 

[Sjru]

Great, everyone eles has been to busy discussing espionage.

Does it provide more bonuses? It's not intended to. It gives more yields, but scions get less yields from water to begin with so it needs more to give the same effect.

Ghost Crew shouldn't be stronger than regular crews, but I think they are slated for removal. Don't know what I'll do with the promotion. Any ideas?

For me, Ghost crew seems a clone of Skeleton crew (being the main difference is that one is ethereal and the other is bones, in some words).
However, at practice, it seems to be a promo that add extra bonuses to those of skeleton. My idea?: Ghost do not have weight, (I suppose), but there are already a cargo promo (skeleton crew).
Perhaps, this promo could act as a "Fear". Also remove the cargo bonus and the attack penalty.
So, to sum up: They could have, extra +1 attack, -1 defense, +30% withdrawal, and "Fear".
The hidden promo that is granted randomly is tricky. Perhaps, the ship could only be viewed to units with certain amount of perception?

Any ideas? It exists for the sole purpose of changing the name of the Smokehouse. Maybe a bonus for the Recon line? Allow them to send out a ghost familiar, to compensate for the loss of a Hawk.

Yes, perhaps, a bonus from haunted lands. It makes sense, being a Ghosthouse. +1 maybe?

The help text is just flavour. The loyal citizens work harder (id est +1) when they remember they don't need to drink, eat, sleep or worry about being poisoned.

The cost is higher because I thought is worth more than .

I thought that text meaned that it raised the %awakened a bit. (I dunno how that mechanic work, however)

The AI does a lot of things badly. Researching Sanitation as Scions could very well be one of those things. Should I limit what use to that which the AI can use, or balance for what a human can do? For the Scions, I'd say balance for humans. The AI can't work the Scions anyway.

The AI always need help, however. The right answer could be, balance both. Think to both sides.

Leaves the for river. Do you think this is better than Sewers, considering the place in the tech tree?

Water sculpture resembles a Levee, when you point out that it gives for rivers. Perhaps, move that UB to engineering and leave the Sewer as a normal building?

 

[shoggi]

Actually skeleton crew refers to the bare minimum you need to control a ship. It has nothing to do with skeletons. Didn't know that until recently, too, when I heard the term somewhere else, where a crew of actual skeletons didn't make as much sense as on erebus.

 

[EugeneStyles]

One thing that is definitely true is < .

Other than that, all I can say is that I build more Poisoned Wells as Scions than I do Wells as other civs.

No, I was obviously on crack when I posted that. I was considering 2 supports 1 pop, completely ignoring the support as well (maybe because I was thinking about Scions? I dunno). Which I guess makes me an idiot. While it's generally true that 1 is better than 1 because is only useful until you have an excess of it, it is worth noting that from buildings is double value versus Blight, and I think there's an event that only triggers if you have excess :sick:.

To remove the crack from my original thought, 1 + 1 should = 1 1 1, assuming that that's a reasonable average yield for half-a-square in mid-to-late game when you consider improvements and resources. So 1 could be equal to about 1 1, but then that ignores the startup cost for that 1 pop, which for a normal civ is consumption of some fairly large amount of food. So, leaving that line of thinking alone... it just seems like a building that doesn't break even for 75 turns is a little weak.

 

[Valkrionn]

Great, everyone eles has been to busy discussing espionage.

Heh, my bad.

Any ideas? It exists for the sole purpose of changing the name of the Smokehouse. Maybe a bonus for the Recon line? Allow them to send out a ghost familiar, to compensate for the loss of a Hawk.

I would not do anything along those lines. It is FAR too similar to the Divided Soul mechanic of the Sidar.

 

[Viatos]

Any ideas? It exists for the sole purpose of changing the name of the Smokehouse. Maybe a bonus for the Recon line? Allow them to send out a ghost familiar, to compensate for the loss of a Hawk.

Something to compensate how awful health-and-food resources are for the Scions? Have those resources supply commerce bonuses to the city would work, perhaps.