Montzeuma Jaguar Rush?

[Fruscainte]

I want to go play a Warmonger game with Montzeuma, but I'm not sure about the Jaguar. I was thinking about doing some Jaguar rush to take out a Civ early, but I don't know exactly how I should do it or how many I need or if it is even viable.

Help?

 

[alpaca]

Unlike Quechua in Civ4, the Jaguars don't have any particularly useful general bonuses over normal warriors. Basically, if you can do a warrior rush, you can do a Jaguar rush. On high difficulty settings (Emperor and above) I don't think it's possible to kick out a Civ with a warrior rush, but people were successful in taking second cities on Deity before the december patch.

It's probably a good idea to go for swords or catapults instead with cities now being stronger.

 

[Soronery]

You might be able to take some non major cities with jaguars but I doubt you can take their capitol.

 

[MadDjinn]

unfortunately, it's not any better than normal warriors as already stated. Unless of course your target is surrounded by jungles. Then you're ok.

The most likely scenario with a jaguar rush (backed by archers would be best) is for you to go take a 2nd city or so and convince the AI to keep sending it's units over to you so that you can get the bonus culture.

 

[elthrasher]

Build Jaguars while beelining Iron Working. Drop a city on a 6 iron source as soon as you can and upgrade. Basic Jaguars aren't that great, but upgraded ones are awesome since they keep the heal 2 when killing ability all the way up through Mech Infantry.

It's not hard to have 4-6 upgraded Jaguars around turn 50 on normal speed.

 

[thwak]

Unlike Quechua in Civ4, the Jaguars don't have any particularly useful general bonuses over normal warriors. Basically, if you can do a warrior rush, you can do a Jaguar rush. On high difficulty settings (Emperor and above) I don't think it's possible to kick out a Civ with a warrior rush, but people were successful in taking second cities on Deity before the december patch.

It's probably a good idea to go for swords or catapults instead with cities now being stronger.

I sorta took out askia with a warrior rush on emperor with the incans.

Now to be fair, I did have two incan archers bombard his cities and I also had one spearman, but I still took him out very early in the game with out iron.

But as far as basic rushing strategies are concerned, I'll still go with what MadDjinn and elthrasher said.

 

[swordspider]

Thankfully it is not *easy* to warrior rush a capital anymore; however, it can definitely still be done if you keep a constant stream going and attack intelligently. By not losing your warriors and rotating them between attack positions, they will get bombarded and get upgrades which you use to heal and move them back into the attack. Eventually you will win.

A few things have to happen though for it to really work. 1. You need to have at least 4 attack tiles (which on a capital is usually no problem). 2. You need to have all their military dead. 3. You need to have a literally constant flow of warriors to back up the ones ones in the fray. 4. The enemy capital needs to be close.

 

[MadDjinn]

I sorta took out askia with a warrior rush on emperor with the incans.

Now to be fair, I did have two incan archers bombard his cities and I also had one spearman, but I still took him out very early in the game with out iron.

But as far as basic rushing strategies are concerned, I'll still go with what MadDjinn and elthrasher said.

Incan slingers don't have the -att vs cities, so they are very useful for early rushes. 2-3 warriors +2-3 slingers = cap taken. (if you kill their units first)
A little harder on Deity, but still plausible if they are right beside you.

Thankfully it is not *easy* to warrior rush a capital anymore; however, it can definitely still be done if you keep a constant stream going and attack intelligently. By not losing your warriors and rotating them between attack positions, they will get bombarded and get upgrades which you use to heal and move them back into the attack. Eventually you will win.

A few things have to happen though for it to really work. 1. You need to have at least 4 attack tiles (which on a capital is usually no problem). 2. You need to have all their military dead. 3. You need to have a literally constant flow of warriors to back up the ones ones in the fray. 4. The enemy capital needs to be close.

yeah. Not sure about the capital though. A CS really early is possible with just 4 warriors. You need to use fresh, non-upgraded, warriors and only use insta-heal promotions. (wisely) If the warriors no longer have insta-heal capability after a few attacks, you have to get new ones.

 

[Tabarnak]

Maybe you can harass the AI until you get iron working. Steal some workers on the way, bring back warriors and upgrade them. Kill the weaker AI. Just a suggestion.

 

[Montezuma101]

Um, no. All of the people on here saying "you can't do a jaguar rush" even though they've never tried it are full of it lmao. Trust me, I just did it on diety, and tbh I think that's prolly the easiest way to win at higher difficulty levels. I did the one city challenge on emperor and really wasn't a war monger until I did immortal and diety. First game on diety I just tried surviving and catching up, but the ai's get ridiculous handicaps so it's almost pointless to try being peaceful and build tall cities with good science etc. You have to eliminate the ai's starting advantageous and the easiest way to do that imo is to rush the hell outta ur neighbors and constantly keep the ais on the defensive. I just won a 22 or w/e the max is player game on diety, pangea, marathon, huge map. I won domination and was like 9 turns from cultural victory so it ain't just a short term strategy. Not saying this to brag (maybe I am a little lol) I know there's prolly players here way better than me, I'm just showing the strategy most definitely works and works well. And if it works on diety it'll work on the other difficulty levels. Ur right that jags have the same base strength as warriors, but their ua's make them ridiculously effective if u use them right, and they keep them after upgrading. A vet jaguar upgraded to shortsword is unbeatable in early bc...

 

[Sclb]

There is a huge difference between a huge marathon and a standard/standard map game. Also that many AI simply makes AI weaker.

 

[Montezuma101]

Btw, I didn't post that to gloat, I just can't believe no one's perfected this yet. I figured after that huge 22 player game I could win a 4 player on diety by around 2000 bc- which I did. I only play marathon though, so that might help idk. I just like the earlier epochs. Jaguars have normal movement in forest/jungle which helps u divide larger armies and get flanking bonuses. The ai is dumb on any setting so u can pick the terrain for battle and watch them rush in. Jags also get 33% combat strength in jungles so u add the flanking bonus+jungle bonus+great general (who I get very early by being aggressive)+ the fact they heal after every unit they kill+ all the bonuses of a veteran unit and a jaguar army can make short work of a warrior/archer army twice its size- which equals lots of early culture. I usually start off the game by dowing a nearby city state but not actually killing it. I just build jags and have them either attack or let them take damage while healing until i get about 5 or 6 veteran jaguars and a great general. After that i can take on any ai on any difficulty despite having a tiny capital with no buildings or citizens. I'm basically a barbarian horde with a ridiculously veteran army early in the game. As long as ur smart with ur military tactics u should be able to knock out 3 civs using only about 6 veteran jaguars and a few archers. U could probably go for 4 but they'll likely have a lot of Spearman by now if ur playing diety. Of course u likely have access to iron by now cuz uve conquered a huge amount of territory. Upgrade ur swordsmen, build trade routes and luxury recourses with captured citizens and ally maritime city states to try making up for ur low population. But really, once u upgrade those veteran jaguars ull be unbeatable. The only thing u gotta worry about is happiness which I honestly haven't mastered. I know if u liberate a civ they have open borders for the rest of the game with u, so selling cities u don't need to them is a trick I've used. If anyone else has ideas to add to this strategy I'd love to hear em lol, I'm just throwing it out there since everyone else here said it can't be done

 

[Montezuma101]

There is a huge difference between a huge marathon and a standard/standard map game. Also that many AI simply makes AI weaker.

Yeah, prolly is a big difference in with standard and marathon. I just like marathon cuz I can play early epochs longer. Still gotta make up for the fact that the ai gets 2 or 3 settlers, a couple warriors, a scout, and like 4 starting techs on diety. Earlier commentors were talking about playing on emperor where the ai gets no handicap. I'm 100% sure this will work at that difficulty level regardless os the speed if I'm doing it on deity. And there's always a few ai's on the other side of the world who've been making their own conquests so the 22 player def wasn't easier than the 4 player it just did... that took forever

 

[Carl5872]

Um, no. All of the people on here saying "you can't do a jaguar rush" even though they've never tried it are full of it lmao. Trust me, I just did it on diety, and tbh I think that's prolly the easiest way to win at higher difficulty levels. I did the one city challenge on emperor and really wasn't a war monger until I did immortal and diety. First game on diety I just tried surviving and catching up, but the ai's get ridiculous handicaps so it's almost pointless to try being peaceful and build tall cities with good science etc. You have to eliminate the ai's starting advantageous and the easiest way to do that imo is to rush the hell outta ur neighbors and constantly keep the ais on the defensive. I just won a 22 or w/e the max is player game on diety, pangea, marathon, huge map. I won domination and was like 9 turns from cultural victory so it ain't just a short term strategy. Not saying this to brag (maybe I am a little lol) I know there's prolly players here way better than me, I'm just showing the strategy most definitely works and works well. And if it works on diety it'll work on the other difficulty levels. Ur right that jags have the same base strength as warriors, but their ua's make them ridiculously effective if u use them right, and they keep them after upgrading. A vet jaguar upgraded to shortsword is unbeatable in early bc...

Can you recommend some build/tech orders so I can try this out?

 

[budweiser]

Please let necro thread die.

Jaquar rush standard/standard is relevant, but huge/marathon is not as relevant.

 

[Browd]

Moderator Action: Please do not revive dead threads, particularly those that applied only to the vanilla game. Thread closed.