More Tags + Indie Cities in Europe?

[The Turk]

Any chance we can get some unplayable tags to the "Francia" region (France, Low Countries, N. Italy, Germany)?

The lack of major commercial cities in Flanders, like Dorestad and especially Ghent is perplexing. Pisa and Amalfi would also be most welcome.

An Bavaria tag that needs to be conquered by Germany, and a more Slav-states east of the Elbe would also be great. Currently the only barbs you have to contend with as Germany are Wends...

Mercia (under Offa the Great) and Wessex under Alfred would also be neat for players who play as the Scandinavians.

Burgundy could easily be broken up into more states, and the point of it should be to try and unite the old "Lotharingia" which pretty much ceased to exist after Lothair's death. Currently even the AI has an easy time doing this, and can quickly reach rank #1.

 

[El Bogus]

First off, sorry if I am misunderstanding your post in some way!
I second more Independent cities in the Lower Countries. Other than that I think it's more appropriate to add even more barbarians and just increase the number of city defenders of each civ on spawn.
I am against adding unplayable civs as I don't really see their appeal and purpose. Would they be just small civs that you can interact with diplomatically? But connect Indies to their region would certainly add to flavour.

A more Slav-states east of the Elbe would also be great. Currently the only barbs you have to contend with as Germany are Wends...

The western Slavs on the coast on the Baltic Ocean are (among other things) called Wends.

Mercia (under Offa the Great) and Wessex under Alfred would also be neat for players who play as the Scandinavians.

Would this really add to the game? The time period for them would be really short and your sole aim as a Viking would be to destroy them. In fact, they would just be of diplomatic importance to a Frankish Player, so I don't see the appeal.
Same thing goes for a broken Burgundy.

 

[DC123456789]

Pisa already exists as an alternative to Florence. Amalfi is obviously mutually exclusive with Naples/Benevento, so you'd have to consider its historical importance in comparison to those two cities.

It makes little sense for Bavaria to have to be conquered by Germany, since it was a core part of the Kingdom of Germany/HRE from its inception. Bavaria was conquered by the Franks, which independent Augsburg represents fairly well.

Mercia is already represented by independent Leicester. I would agree that adding an indy Winchester to represent Wessex would make sense, though what would be a two or three-city civ existing for not all that many turns doesn't seem worth the bother.

 

[cmakk1012]

I’d love for there to be more independent cities or even unplayable civs at 500 AD. I’m talking Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Suebi, maybe something in Pannonia. The Cordobans could have a conquest-focused beginning to overrun the Iberian civs/cities as they did historically. It’s not necessary by any means, but it’d be cool.

EDIT: I guess the Ostrogoths or Pannonians wouldn’t add much to the early civs (unless Southern Italy gets reworked) so they’re unnecessary.

 

[The Turk]

I second more Independent cities in the Lower Countries. Other than that I think it's more appropriate to add even more barbarians and just increase the number of city defenders of each civ on spawn.

More varied Barbarians are needed, that is for sure. Independent Cities for the Low Countries makes sense.

I am against adding unplayable civs as I don't really see their appeal and purpose. Would they be just small civs that you can interact with diplomatically? But connect Indies to their region would certainly add to flavour.

The point of them is to add a small state, whose expansion is controlled, and can be scripted to collapse, but who are tougher than an independent city (which are rather easy to conquer).

The western Slavs on the coast on the Baltic Ocean are (among other things) called Wends.

I know "Wends" exist, but playing as Germany the ONLY Barbarbarian threat was Wends from Denmark to Bavaria.... this needs to be cleaned up. Having to contend with Avars/Magyars would be neat. I'd also love to portray the Slav slave trade, but that might be too difficult to portray.

Would this really add to the game? The time period for them would be really short and your sole aim as a Viking would be to destroy them. In fact, they would just be of diplomatic importance to a Frankish Player, so I don't see the appeal.
Same thing goes for a broken Burgundy.

You might have point, I was just giving ideas of important states. It is too bad that the timeframe of this mod is so vast. Having to portray so much from 500-1800 means you end up not being able to depict everything well. I would love a mod focused on the Early Middle Ages (500-1000).

Burgundy definitely needs to be broken up to make it more interesting for the French, German and Italian players. Burgundy as we know it in the 15th century was a recent state of affairs. After Middle Francia was inherited by Lothar (hence Lotharingia), his descendants continuously broke up the state. It was only centralized later on. But the Dukes of Burgundy and Flanders continued to be very powerful after the demise of the power of the French King post-Charles the Fat.

Ideally we would have a Francia civilization (Carolingians), and then a second "France" civilization which spawns with Hugh Capet or Odo of Paris.

Pisa already exists as an alternative to Florence. Amalfi is obviously mutually exclusive with Naples/Benevento, so you'd have to consider its historical importance in comparison to those two cities.

Why can't we have Pisa and Florence? Florence only grew because of the rise of Pisa on the river Arno. Pisa was a major pirate base and later trade entrepot for the interior of Italy, which gave rise to Florence and Siena. More resources and city-states in Central Italy are definitely in order.

Playing as Germany had had ZERO trouble holding onto all of Northern Italy. This is where unplayable civs can be interesting, as we could limit their expansion, but make them very powerful and hard to conquer. Northern Italy definitely needs to be more of a challenge, as it was IRL.

It makes little sense for Bavaria to have to be conquered by Germany, since it was a core part of the Kingdom of Germany/HRE from its inception. Bavaria was conquered by the Franks, which independent Augsburg represents fairly well.

This is not true. Bavaria continuously went off on its own way, and had to be repeatedly reconquered, by Charles Martel, Charlemagne, Louis the German etc. German duchies were constantly exerting their power, and had to constantly be put in their place (Henry the Lion is a great example).

Which reminds me, the Zahringens of Switzerland should be represented somehow. Currently Switzerland is empty for the entire game.

 

[AtlantaMarty]

I definitely think an independent Bavaria is a good idea - that way, we can have 4 German civs (Bavaria, Germany, Prussia, Austria) which is a good compromise between representing all the minor German states and lumping them together

The bigger map (96*146 IIRC) will definitely make Bavaria feasible (though the bigger map probably won't be here for at least a year)

 

[QManNL]

Just spit-balling here and wanted to voice a quick suggestion related to a potential Germany rework... I like the idea of adding Bavaria, but it makes me wonder, and I don't want to break Germany into too many civs, however in the event of a larger map, I'd like to see the German civ as we know it changed into Saxony. I feel like a Bavarian civ in addition to Austria and Prussia makes having a fully "German" civ named "Germany" more contested, and could probably be worked in a way akin to titles in SoI, a la Shahanshah. Saxony, Bavaria, Austria, and Prussia could then compete for a united Germany and have it be a title awarded when certain circumstances are met. Given the timeframe of the mod, it kinda falls more into an alternate history "what if" sort of thing, which tends to be the running case more often than not in the very late game after the 15th century, and it might seem pointless if the HRE mechanic returns (unless these certain unspecified circumstances allow the HRE to transition into a German Emperor title of sorts).

Also, in regards to independent city placement and the potential addition of minor civs, I believe that my suggestions for Iberia (I think I posted that in the 1.5 dev thread?) are relevant here. Overall I still think parts of Iberia look a bit underrepresented in the early game and could use some livening up, particularly if extending the timeline will be a goal soon. Britain, Flanders, Italy, and the Balkans shouldn't be the only places getting the love, after all. lol

Other than that, it seems to me that independent cities are handled very well in Eastern Europe with many of the additions made last year. For instance, IIRC there's one that can pop up in Croatia? And then one in Crimea, one in western Ukraine, etc. Although, it probably goes without saying, we don't really want the map overpopulated with independent cities. I would prefer the freedom of having more spaces to choose from when settling; and furthermore, having more independent cities accumulate could lead to quicker slowdown, maybe? Bottom line is: thoughtful inclusion of indies and minors can make a more dynamic experience without overcrowding.

So much for "[voicing] a quick suggestion" I got my creative juices flowing~!

 

[Baron03]

Just spit-balling here and wanted to voice a quick suggestion related to a potential Germany rework... I like the idea of adding Bavaria, but it makes me wonder, and I don't want to break Germany into too many civs, however in the event of a larger map, I'd like to see the German civ as we know it changed into Saxony. I feel like a Bavarian civ in addition to Austria and Prussia makes having a fully "German" civ named "Germany" more contested, and could probably be worked in a way akin to titles in SoI, a la Shahanshah. Saxony, Bavaria, Austria, and Prussia could then compete for a united Germany and have it be a title awarded when certain circumstances are met. Given the timeframe of the mod, it kinda falls more into an alternate history "what if" sort of thing, which tends to be the running case more often than not in the very late game after the 15th century, and it might seem pointless if the HRE mechanic returns (unless these certain unspecified circumstances allow the HRE to transition into a German Emperor title of sorts).

Also, in regards to independent city placement and the potential addition of minor civs, I believe that my suggestions for Iberia (I think I posted that in the 1.5 dev thread?) are relevant here. Overall I still think parts of Iberia look a bit underrepresented in the early game and could use some livening up, particularly if extending the timeline will be a goal soon. Britain, Flanders, Italy, and the Balkans shouldn't be the only places getting the love, after all. lol

Other than that, it seems to me that independent cities are handled very well in Eastern Europe with many of the additions made last year. For instance, IIRC there's one that can pop up in Croatia? And then one in Crimea, one in western Ukraine, etc. Although, it probably goes without saying, we don't really want the map overpopulated with independent cities. I would prefer the freedom of having more spaces to choose from when settling; and furthermore, having more independent cities accumulate could lead to quicker slowdown, maybe? Bottom line is: thoughtful inclusion of indies and minors can make a more dynamic experience without overcrowding.

So much for "[voicing] a quick suggestion" I got my creative juices flowing~!

Just adding my opinion too: I initially supported the idea of splitting the HRE/Germany into Brandenburg, Bavaria, and Saxony but over the past two years I think having a whole German civ will work best. Splitting Germany will be very complicated and time consuming. There is the problem of larger neighbors, creating permanent alliances, who takes up invading Italy, etc. I do think adding a playable "Bohemia" from RFCE++ might suffice. It was an influential state for much of the Middle Ages. Austria's flip zone would have to change though.

For Iberia I like the addition of an independent Lisbon for the Cordobans to capture early, or at least changing their settle map. I prefer adding Lisbon at the start of the game. To adjust historically, I have suggested cutting Portugal's spawn to Coimbra (County of Portugal's historical borders) but adding siege units to take Lisbon within a few turns. Currently, the modern territory of Portugal is fairly empty and inactive until their spawn.

I have also suggested adding Navarre before, kind of as a small one city challenge styled civ. Unsure if anyone would consider that though
Old idea here from 2014 (time flies).

Spoiler :

Kingdom of Navarre (It's definitely way too small to be considered playable or a serious contender to be added, but I like the challenge of playing as a smaller civ)
Spawn in 824 at Pamplona with a few small units, although it could spawn at 710 as "Vasconia" but I'm not sure how that would affect Cordoba.
Leader: Sancho the Great
Starting stack: two UU, one worker, one missionary, two archers.
UU: Jinete (or Ginete/Genitour) replaces mounted sergeant, +25% versus melee and archery units.
UB: Baserri (replaces manor house) provides a culture bonus
Or Garai (replaces granary)
Or Dorretxeak* (replaces tower house) +1 extra culture.
UP: Ecclesiastical Piety - religious buildings costs are halved
UHVs:
1. Control Castille, Navarre, and Aragon by 1035
2. Control two cities in Aquitaine, and two in Spain by 1000
3. Build a catholic cathedral by 1180
4. Have friendly relations with three other leaders in 1345?
5. Have 6,000 culture by 1485
6. Control one city in Normandy, Navarre, Aquitaine, Provence, and Castille
7. Obtain the first whale resource
*If they only control Pamplona and haven't reached the high Middle Ages, then their dynamic name should be "Kingdom of Pamplona"

 

[The Turk]

Kingdom of Germany should definitely be a thing, as it was more centralized than the Kingdom of France for a while. I just think that after the early Middle Ages, specifically the end of the Staufen dynasty (or potentially Barbarossa), the unity of the Kingdom of Germany should dissolve into different states. Most of these can be represented by non-playable civilizations/independent civilizations, and would include Brandenburg, Bohemia, Bavaria, Saxony, Rhineland etc.

Then Austria and Prussia will have something to fight over.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Just as a general reply to the thread, as I'm not at the province/city changes yet:
I'm interested in adding more indy cities, but mostly with the alternative city/spawn position mechanics.
As some of you already pointed out, it's pretty important to leave most of the city placement choices to the player.

 

[QManNL]

Just adding my opinion too: I initially supported the idea of splitting the HRE/Germany into Brandenburg, Bavaria, and Saxony but over the past two years I think having a whole German civ will work best. Splitting Germany will be very complicated and time consuming. There is the problem of larger neighbors, creating permanent alliances, who takes up invading Italy, etc. I do think adding a playable "Bohemia" from RFCE++ might suffice. It was an influential state for much of the Middle Ages. Austria's flip zone would have to change though.

I had Bohemia on my mind but I forgot to mention it. I'm not worried about the "larger neighbors" thing because Germany as it is already tends to dominate its neighbors, especially Poland. What I've noticed is they seldom target France or Burgundy, but if one of them DoWs on Germany, Germany usually makes short work of Burgundy, and is relatively evenly matched to France and tends to not suffer any losses (so the status quo regarding France is relatively historical, I think, given the small, repeated border changes in the Rhine area). Since several posters mentioned the viability of a Bavarian civilization, in addition to the Austrian and Prussian, I was just suggesting that it would make more sense to rename what we already have as the German civ as a Saxon civ because Otto the Great was the next monarch of significance regarding the HRE after Charlemagne. (I mean, I'd still like to see the Frankish kingdom start in Aachen, but I haven't seen any chance of that happening, maybe even with a map expansion and extended timeline... This is also significant because of, I can't find it, but someone suggested having a dynasty change in France with it starting in Paris by the Capetians; maybe they could revolt from the Franks if it's still in their control [I realize, though, that the current Frankish/France situation represents a less convoluted transition between the two empires, and that changing it could be less satisfying than how it currently is])

Saxony could still start in the Frankfurt area, just like current Germany (unless deemed more appropriate to move the capital north into Saxony, or into Aachen), and besides the Bavarian area which people seem excited about splitting off, it would more or less be the same as current Germany, just with what I thought would be a more appropriate name. Yet, if we don't have an independent Bavaria, then I don't think there's enough distinction to warrant a name change. Since the establishment of the Ottonian dynasty, the title of Holy Roman Emperor was considered roughly equivalent to King of Germany, so whether we want to rename Germany to Saxony depends on how we want to settle its establishment relative to its neighbors and how it might fit into a reintroduced HRE system.

 

[cmakk1012]

Quick thought on AI Germany at least—since it was so centralized as the HRE in the earlier medieval period and then splintered apart later, maybe it should just have a high chance of collapsing after a certain date? (The Golden Bull, maybe?) Then there could be a German respawn as a nation like Bavaria or Saxony with a smaller flip zone and the rest of what was Germany could fall under other nations.

 

[gilgames]

I love the idea to split germans into more civ ( instead of new ones, like sicily) and to balance that, we could finally do the fance/frank slpit too. So there would be a lot of variation which two civ could emerge as France and Germany. It sounds awesome.
On a side note, more indy city is welcome, but with the feature that player can relocate the city if desired. We talked a lot about this resettle thing.