Most Unique Complaint I've Seen Yet

[shadowplay]

Iranians are notoriously sensitive about being confused with Arabs. A few years ago there was a bit of a spat regarding Google Earth mislabeling the Persian gulf:

http://www.petitiononline.com/sos02082/petition.html

 

[Saldrin]

My point wasn't who spoke what. It was that the Persians still hate the Arabs because the Arabs conquered them ~1500 years ago. Since the US hasn't been conquered by anyone yet, there is no direct example.

My point is more about how would you feel if your greatest enemy or most hated enemy's language was spoken instead of your own.

So they are pissed at something that happened 1500 years ago and they are relating this to a videogame....

Really?

OK. Don't care. People like this need to be left behind, its best for everyone.

 

[Malkaviel]

If you're "really interested"...

23rd century bc - akkadian becomes lingua franca of mesopotamia, along with lesser-spoken sumerian in hold-out city states. Related semitic dialects are spoken in Canaan.

18th century bc - Semitic-speaking Ammorites invade Akkadian land, Akkadian is retained as the "official" or "court" language (re. Hammurabi), but the general populace now in northern Canaan, northern Mesopotamia, and a bit east generally speak the Semitic dialect we now know as Aramaic.

15th century bc - Earliest known records of proto-Iranian, an indo-European dialect/derivative. Spoken by the Elamites from south-western Iran. These people consistently warred with Mesopotamian rulers for centuries and lost. The court language becomes Akkadian, as we see in their inscriptions. Indo-European dialects were spoken for hundreds of years in western Iran, but these are the first written examples of what would "become" Farsi.

14th - 10th century bc - With little to no powerful Mesopotamian empire to speak of and exert cultural influence, western Iran resumes(or for the most part continues) to speak proto-Iranian

9th-8th centuries bc - Conquests by Assyria. Sargon II (in 715)evicts and exiles Mede kings, and while Medes had been paying tribute to Assyria for some time, cultural influence spreads, including semitic languages Aramaic and retained court language Akkadian, (kinda like how we still use latin for many legal and scientific terms today in english). I guess it's a little like Aramaic was to the territories bordering ancient mesopotamia what English is today. Altho every country has it's own language/dialect, to be involved on the world stage mostly involves English.

6th century bc - Achaemenids come to power, adopt a dialect we refer to as Imperial Aramaic to maintain communication and congruency across their vastly growing empire. During this time the dialect we now know as "old persian" was spoken widely in western Iran, as the Achaemenids were indo-iranian peoples, now beginning again to spread their culture.

So, did Darius speak Old Persian or Imperial Aramaic? The answer is likely both. When talking to friends and family he spoke Old Persian. When passing edicts, though, and otherwise communicating with distant parts of his empire, he spoke or wrote Imperial Aramaic.

But from the start most of you probably didn't realize why Persians take such offense at Darius speaking Aramaic. It's because Aramaic, like Arabic, Akkadian, Phoenecian and Hebrew, is a semitic dialect.

 

[vandyr]

Iranians are notoriously sensitive

Persians are probably still sore about that buttwhoopin' they took at Thermopylae.

 

[Matth3w]

So, did Darius speak Old Persian or Imperial Aramaic? The answer is likely both. When talking to friends and family he spoke Old Persian. When passing edicts, though, and otherwise communicating with distant parts of his empire, he spoke or wrote Imperial Aramaic.

I've never seen anything that actually indicates this.

 

[Matth3w]

Persians are probably still sore about that buttwhoopin' they took at Thermopylae.

You watch entirely too much TV/movies. The Persians eventually marched through and sacked villages after only three days of battle, and continued to conquer most of Greece after.

 

[Malkaviel]

I've never seen anything that actually indicates this.

Shaked, Saul (1987). "Aramaic". Encyclopedia Iranica. 2. New York: Routledge & Kegan Paul. pp. 250–261.

 

[Popish Frenzy]

My point wasn't who spoke what. It was that the Persians still hate the Arabs because the Arabs conquered them ~1500 years ago. Since the US hasn't been conquered by anyone yet, there is no direct example.

My point is more about how would you feel if your greatest enemy or most hated enemy's language was spoken instead of your own.

From what ive read in previous threads, Darius is speaking aramaic which was the lingua franca of the Achaemenid Empire and the language that Darius himself spoke.

Of course that still leaves open the debate about whether its better to be authentic or representative with the leader languages. I guess you could fault firaxis for not being consistent, i mean they dont have Ramesses speaking in ancient Egyptian or have Elizabeth speaking in 16th century english with a 16th century accent or have Washington speaking in a 18th century english accent, which apparently didn't sound much like any modern british or US accent.

 

[Malkaviel]

or type Imperial Aramaic in your browser if you don't feel like going to a library )

 

[vandyr]

You watch entirely too much TV/movies. The Persians eventually marched through and sacked villages after only three days of battle, and continued to conquer most of Greece after.

I know all about it, I've done tremendous amounts of research on the subject. The battle of Thermopylae is considered a classic Pyrrhic victory.

 

[Pratputajao]

If you're "really interested"...

23rd century bc - akkadian becomes lingua franca of mesopotamia, along with lesser-spoken sumerian in hold-out city states. Related semitic dialects are spoken in Canaan.

18th century bc - Semitic-speaking Ammorites invade Akkadian land, Akkadian is retained as the "official" or "court" language (re. Hammurabi), but the general populace now in northern Canaan, northern Mesopotamia, and a bit east generally speak the Semitic dialect we now know as Aramaic.

15th century bc - Earliest known records of proto-Iranian, an indo-European dialect/derivative. Spoken by the Elamites from south-western Iran. These people consistently warred with Mesopotamian rulers for centuries and lost. The court language becomes Akkadian, as we see in their inscriptions. Indo-European dialects were spoken for hundreds of years in western Iran, but these are the first written examples of what would "become" Farsi.

14th - 10th century bc - With little to no powerful Mesopotamian empire to speak of and exert cultural influence, western Iran resumes(or for the most part continues) to speak proto-Iranian

9th-8th centuries bc - Conquests by Assyria. Sargon II (in 715)evicts and exiles Mede kings, and while Medes had been paying tribute to Assyria for some time, cultural influence spreads, including semitic languages Aramaic and retained court language Akkadian, (kinda like how we still use latin for many legal and scientific terms today in english). I guess it's a little like Aramaic was to the territories bordering ancient mesopotamia what English is today. Altho every country has it's own language/dialect, to be involved on the world stage mostly involves English.

6th century bc - Achaemenids come to power, adopt a dialect we refer to as Imperial Aramaic to maintain communication and congruency across their vastly growing empire. During this time the dialect we now know as "old persian" was spoken widely in western Iran, as the Achaemenids were indo-iranian peoples, now beginning again to spread their culture.

So, did Darius speak Old Persian or Imperial Aramaic? The answer is likely both. When talking to friends and family he spoke Old Persian. When passing edicts, though, and otherwise communicating with distant parts of his empire, he spoke or wrote Imperial Aramaic.

But from the start most of you probably didn't realize why Persians take such offense at Darius speaking Aramaic. It's because Aramaic, like Arabic, Akkadian, Phoenecian and Hebrew, is a semitic dialect.

Hmm, very interesting. Thanks!

I do see the reason to be somewhat upset about this. I mean Iranians dont speak Arabic, and tend not to care for Arabs. I dont think this is obscure knowledge? Why would it be hard to at least get a Farsi speaker?

 

[Cilpot]

It's debateble wether Darius spoke Arameic or Old Persian. Arameic, which is a semittic language like Arabic, was "lingua franca" at the time.. Spoken by the elites.

But even so, having Darius speak Arameic is silly. It's like having Catherine speak French (which the Russian elites at the time did).

 

[Pegasos]

So this isn't about Firaxis messing with languages but Iranians not being familiar with their own linguistic history?

Btw If Finland was introduced in the game with a leader speaking German I would rather be amused than angry. It would clearly be a mistake, not an insult.

 

[boredatwork]

I don't believe how much you Civ5 lovers whine.

For a week now you dump on the haters for repeatably making the same boring complaints over and over. Now that someone finally makes a complaint that has nothing to do with dumbing down, religion, AI, or Civ4 you're still whining.

There's just no pleasing some people. =P

 

[Matth3w]

I know all about it, I've done tremendous amounts of research on the subject. The battle of Thermopylae is considered a classic Pyrrhic victory.

some may suggest that, but apparently it wasn't THAT much of a Pyrrhic victory considering the Persians conquered a lot of Greece AFTER the fact, and were still in Greece a year later.

Hmm, very interesting. Thanks!

I do see the reason to be somewhat upset about this. I mean Iranians dont speak Arabic, and tend not to care for Arabs. I dont think this is obscure knowledge? Why would it be hard to at least get a Farsi speaker?

It wouldn't. Hell I could do it for free. Just give me what you want said and I'll translate into Farsi and record my voice.

 

[Malkaviel]

Hmm, very interesting. Thanks!

I do see the reason to be somewhat upset about this. I mean Iranians dont speak Arabic, and tend not to care for Arabs. I dont think this is obscure knowledge? Why would it be hard to at least get a Farsi speaker?

Well, for one, because Farsi doesn't sound a thing like Old Persian. lol. No one speaks it anymore. Experts can read it to translate it, but that's about it. Let me give an example...

You speak english, but can you read this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Beowulf.firstpage.jpeg

...neither can I. That's how much languages evolve over a thousand-and-a-half years, let alone 2600.

 

[Matth3w]

It's debateble wether Darius spoke Arameic or Old Persian. Arameic, which is a semittic language like Arabic, was "lingua franca" at the time.. Spoken by the elites.

But even so, having Darius speak Arameic is silly. It's like having Catherine speak French (which the Russian elites at the time did).

It's not debatable, as he left behind writings in Old Persian.

So this isn't about Firaxis messing with languages but Iranians not being familiar with their own linguistic history?

Wrong. Read the whole thread.

 

[Centurio]

Persians are probably still sore about that buttwhoopin' they took at Thermopylae.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO!

The Persians demolished the Greek forces at Thermopylae, and then proceeded to burn not only several villages but also the Athenian Acropolis. (When the Athenians visited the Oracle at Delphi, she made an allusion to the Wooden Wall as their salvation. Some thought it was the wooden wall around the Acropolis, others the Athenian trireme fleet: the trireme crowd won...) It was actually the entire Achaean navy under Themistocles (an Athenian) that defeated the Persians at the Straits of Salamis. Really, the Spartans receive WAY too much undeserved love for their 'accomplishments'.

Also, there were 1,500 Thebans who died with the Spartans at the last stand at Thermopylae.

 

[Pegasos]

Wrong. Read the whole thread.

I did. That is the picture this gives. He's speaking Arameic, and Iranians are pissed off because he doesn't speak Persian.

 

[Matth3w]

I did. That is the picture this gives. He's speaking Arameic, and Iranians are pissed off because he doesn't speak Persian.

They have been speaking Persian or Old Persian since at least middle 500BC. So no, Aramaic is not the correct language even if you are trying to be historically correct. Darius left an inscription that was in three languages before he died, and not a one of them was Aramaic.