Nerve Gas and Eco Damage

[Begle1]

So I was playing a game of Alien Crossfire as Zakharov. On Trascend mode, against all the women faction leaders (and the Cult of Planet, since it's hard to tell with Mr. Prepubescent).

Come around mission year 2350 I hadn't even been able to get into a treaty with a single faction; there was a Believer-Cult-Cybernetic-Spartan pact that I couldn't split apart no matter how much I tried to seduce the individual members, and the Data-Angels and Gaians were in an equally inseparable pact.

My Social Engineering at this point was set at Democracy-Green-Knowledge-Cybernetic, and I had the Manifold in my borders, so I had a +5 Planet rating. I wasn't building only forests, but I had a bunch in my arid and moist squares and out of my 60 bases I had about 10 tree farms and four hybrid forests. And about four or five Centauri Preserves. My big bases were averaging around 4-5 points of eco damage; well in check.

I had about 40 needlejets stationed on a stalemate around Miriam and Aki-Zeta when I decided to speed things up a bit and upgraded them all to Quantum Plasma-Shard Sporific/ Nerve Gas needlejets, all Commando and Elite.

Up to this point I had no idea Nerve Gas resulted in eco damage. Wonderful thing about this game is you have to figure that stuff out the hard way.

Four turns of attacks later and neither the Believers or the Cyborgs had a base above the size of three, and the Cult was half wiped out. I had only lost three jets.

Out of my 60 bases there wasn't a single one with less than 200 points of eco damage, and my bigger bases had well over 600. Ocean levels were going to rise over 5000 meters in the next 20 years (which is funny since the game doesn't render anything above 3500 meters), and at the beginning of every turn about 200 mindworms popped out of the fungus around my biggest bases, all one step from Demon boil.


Anybody else get their butts kicked by Captain Mind-Worm after using massive quantities of nerve gas? I love this game...

 

[Diviner]

the last time i committed nerve-attack-atrocity all i got is 2 quantum planet buster, no ecology penalty and it was also transcend with zakharov

but thats pretty nice overflow you spoke of. surely this great game have tremendous amount of bugs

 

[beetle]

But thats pretty nice overflow you spoke of. Surely this great game have tremendous amount of bugs.

Not a bug, but an undocumented feature of this great game! (Most players figure it out after a few games.) Planet is an NPC and she the hates nerve gas! (But for some reason, she is okay with you using nerve gas on the projenerator races -- or with you using if the UN lifts the attrocity ban. )

 

[beetle]

I am surprised you could not work out any deals. What was your integrity reputation before you started with the nerve gas? If you leveled bases, nerve stapped, or really abused treaties, none of the AI might have anything to do with you.

 

[Diviner]

Not a bug, but an undocumented feature of this great game! )

i do not find the point of this. so how are you supposed to use these attrocities if the planet sentence you to death. even planet busters have much more less effect on ecology. (-5 clean mineral i assume) well this thing really does not make sense to me. remains great game though.

 

[Begle1]

I am surprised you could not work out any deals. What was your integrity reputation before you started with the nerve gas? If you leveled bases, nerve stapped, or really abused treaties, none of the AI might have anything to do with you.

I wasn't able to get a single treaty the entire game; I had randomized agendas/ randomized personalities enabled, and I had a one-in-a-million bad-luck shot where everybody was perfectly friendly with everybody else. They were all locked up in Pacts and treaties for at least 150 years before I started to use nerve gas.

My integrity hovered between "wicked" and "infamous" throughout the entire game, I didn't commit any atrocities until the nerve gas, though. I didn't really do anything apart from breaking a couple truces way early in the game, but since everybody else was in an orgy of love it was enough to put me on the very bottom of the "integrity" scale.

The best part was that, between the Empath Guild and Longevity Vaccine, I was still the Planetary Governor...

 

[Begle1]

i do not find the point of this. so how are you supposed to use these attrocities if the planet sentence you to death. even planet busters have much more less effect on ecology. (-5 clean mineral i assume) well this thing really does not make sense to me. remains great game though.

Nerve gas really is too effective to use without any kind of check on it; 40 needlejets with nerve gas and decent weapons can, in one turn, knock 20 bases from size 14 to size 3. Enough bang for your buck that I'd rather have it on my jets than have planetbusters around. And this for something that you can get really early in the game, and the computer is hesitant to use; it's incredibly powerful.

Sister Miriam was wondering around with nerve gas infantry for decades before I equipped all my forces, she never got close enough to use it though.

It doesn't make sense that you can use it against the aliens or with the UN Charter repealed and not get any sort of penalty, though.

And even when the sea level was set to rise 6000 meters, the parts of the map set at 3500 meters weren't "ENDANGERED"; no matter how much sea levels rise, the game won't submerge the highest points.

 

[beetle]

Nerve gas really is too effective to use without any kind of check on it.

Glad you agree! (And ditto on your other observations.)

So, did you survive the Mind Worms?

Did you go on to win the game?

My integrity hovered between “wicked” and “infamous” throughout the entire game, I didn't commit any atrocities until the nerve gas, though. I didn’t really do anything apart from breaking a couple truces way early in the game.

Hmmm. I would have thought you would have had to done worse. Did your integrity decrease anytime after the broken truces? You might try returning to an earlier save and make a point of not even braking truces and see how that plays out.

Are the AIs overriding your veto powers? I hate it when that happens! The doubling trade credit value can make them more cooperative. (Or put you at more of a disadvantage.) Also, one Solar Shade can undue multiple warnings about sea level rising. (The most recent message is the one that counts.) But you an only increase the Solar Shade once every 20 years.

 

[Begle1]

I might have been able to survive if I tried really hard... I had the opposing factions knocked down far enough that I could have pulled all my air forces back and put them on anti-locust patrol, and then started rush building as many Empath Scout Patrols as possible to mag-lev around my continent and take out the boils.

You only have to kill the top mindworm on the stack and the entire square is toasted, but when they attack you then you need to take out eight. The trick is to maintain the offensive at all cost. But what's nice is that you can make 3000 credits a turn flaming mind worms and collecting the pearls.

The AI never bothered to use the Council for much, other than trying to kick me out of the office. The "Global Trade Pact" never even came up, altough I'm sure they could have overridden my veto if it did.

Know how big the Save Game files are? If you'd like I could try to email it to you...

After you rack up that much eco damage, do you know how long it takes it to go away? Do sea levels ever recede on their own?

 

[beetle]

Know how big the Save Game files are? If you'd like I could try to email it to you...

Thanks, but it’s okay. Been there, done that. Fond memories though!

After you rack up that much eco damage, do you know how long it takes it to go away?

As I recall, it does go away, probably less than ten turns. At least, I think I recall surviving through it! One key thing is to not be making things worse. That may mean turning all your citizens into empaths. (Which means producing very few minerals, and not enough food to keep cities from starving.)

Spoiler :

Another undocument secret is that tree farms (and hybrid forests) built before your first fungal bloom (pop) do not help your ecology.

No, sea levels will not recede on their own.

 

[beetle]

I do not find the point of this. So how are you supposed to use these? Well this thing really does not make sense to me.

You have to use nerve gas (and other extreme tactics) sparingly. Or manuver to lift the ban first. As Begle1 observed, it is a fair play balance consideration. Otherwise, once one is facing life sentence of econmic sanctions anyway, what would be the disincentive? I would prefer -1 police for each use myself, but having planet go after you certainly gets your attention!

 

[beetle]

I do not find the point of this. So how are you supposed to use these? Well this thing really does not make sense to me.

You have to use nerve gas (and other extreme tactics) sparingly. Maybe just the first attack on a base? Or manuver to lift the ban first. As Begle1 observed, there has to be a significant play balance consideration. Otherwise, once a player is facing a life sentence of economic sanctions anyway, what would be the disincentive? I would prefer -1 police and/or morale for each use myself (could be temporary), but having planet go after you certainly gets your attention!

 

[Empiremaker]

Mind worms don't cause much of a problem with some empath rovers. To raise you clean min limit, scrap some preserves, and rebuild them. Each will raise your clean min limit by 1. I don't like to commit atrocities unless necessary.

 

[Begle1]

Once you get mag tubes throughout your empire then you can deal with mind worms... But your outlaying bases get wiped out fast if you can't shuttle attackers to them quickly.

 

[Psyonif]

I never knew it did that! But then again, I almost never use nerve gas. It makes me feel really guilty if I use it on a base.

 

[sir_schwick]

Do genetic warfare attacks by Probe Teams also make planet angry? I tend to go crazy in the later game with 'atrocity factions' weakening opponents when I'm done developing my core and middle ring of cities.

 

[Volcanon]

This is a necro but hey.

I just played a game on Transcend with Gaians on Demo/Green and the spartans were being too damn defensive so I sent in the nukes and then sent in the gas jets and copters.

Some turns later my empire had shrunk by half and 75% of opposing factions towns had drowned. I was the only one who had dry land except for a couple of tiny islands because as soon as I got the "sea levels rising by OMG levels" I got all of my formers to do raise land.

I think because I never really stopped using gas, I had to raise my capital to 3000 metres twice.

Thats what happens when somebody relys too much on air power to take out AAA sentinels.

Edit: Oh and I had a city making 200+ mins a turn. Next turn it was making 5, and next turn it was a smoking crater. Demon-Boil Locusts of Chiron vs unprepared base = bad. (If you kill one locust only that locust dies, unlike if you kill worms)

 

[Fireseal]

So the moral is to play the sea faction, nerve gas the planet, destroying 95% of the land bases, then cruising to victory!

 

[Phlegmak]

Up to this point I had no idea Nerve Gas resulted in eco damage. Wonderful thing about this game is you have to figure that stuff out the hard way.
...
Anybody else get their butts kicked by Captain Mind-Worm after using massive quantities of nerve gas? I love this game...

Yes, I have had the same thing happen to me multiple times. It's a tremendous shame! If Firaxis released the source code, I could fix it.

 

[vyeh]

Yes, I have had the same thing happen to me multiple times. It's a tremendous shame! If Firaxis released the source code, I could fix it.

I don't see nerve gas causing eco-damage as a bug. All that nerve gas has to do bad things to living things, not just humans.