new evidence native americans should be a civ

[Hannabir]

Yes, it does, That is the official definition of a continent, as explained in all those other threads. Eurasia is also a continent.

 

[mossmonster]

As for the rest of the discussion, since this is a GAME the Iriquois can develop ironworking before the romans, WHY THE HECK NOT??

-drjones

Because there's only 18 initial starting slots for civs coming with the initial game release. Good attitude though!

 

[civspain]

well native americans are in the game incas,and aztecs, but i do realize people prob mean north american natives but the north americans indians are the same race as south american indians,so the astecs represent for all native americans,it just so happeneds that the great american native civilizations or from south and central america.

 

[Hannabir]

I'm asking you for specifics to back your claims.

Why? I've given those in a number of similar threads already. About every 10th thread repeats this topic somewhere along the line.

 

[Hannabir]

the north americans indians are the same race as south american indians

Not that it is at all relevant, but this is not entirely correct. The Americas were originally settled in several waves. Their ancestors came from as far as Tibet.

 

[drjones]

Why does your civ deserve to be included?

You have the burden of proof entirely wrong. Why should his civ be forceably excluded from the game?
You are the judge of who in the history of mankind is good enough to be in a video game?

Other native american groups WILL be modded/expanded into this game, and there is nothing you can do about it. So what is the point of all this nit-picking?

-drjones

 

[mossmonster]

Why? I've given those in a number of similar threads already.

Why? Because you voluntarily entered THIS thread many times now and issued claims of your own and made statements countering what others had posted. If you would like to enter a discussion you are of course welcome. If you don't want to participate that's great too, as I said we're kind of wasting time until we can get actual gameplay info. (O/T Stullla's info is super).

If you do enter a thread and make claims is it unreasonable to expect you to support your opinion that you just stated to everyone? Again I ask, what specific reasons to you have that they should be included as one of the original issue 18 civs that come with the game?

 

[civspain]

Not that it is at all relevant, but this is not entirely correct. The Americas were originally settled in several waves. Their ancestors came from as far as Tibet.

well they are considered the same race and thats why i said that native americans are represented in the new game.because in alot of threads and topics people are complaining that native americans are not in the game.and native americans are all decended from asians and caucasians that crossed over the alaskan land bridge about 20,000 years ago than melted into a whole nother race which is now called native american but were mistaken ly called indians because early white exployers namely the spanish thought they were in india.take care be safe enjoy the game everybody

 

[Hannabir]

If you do enter a thread and make claims is it unreasonable to expect you to support your opinion that you just stated to everyone?

One expects a certain minimum of knowledge. It is not like I said anything new, or like it is hard to find.

 

[mossmonster]

You have the burden of proof entirely wrong. Why should his civ be forceably excluded from the game?
You are the judge of who in the history of mankind is good enough to be in a video game?

Other native american groups WILL be modded/expanded into this game, and there is nothing you can do about it. So what is the point of all this nit-picking?

-drjones

I am not the judge. Firaxis is. Nobody is forcibly excluded from anything as they seem to have gone to great lengths to make the game easy to mod to your particular tastes. If you feel that strongly about it send Firaxis a message and don't buy their game.

This is a forum thread that discusses the validity of Firaxis decision to do so, i.e. should Northern native americans be included. The point of this 'nit-picking' as you unfairly put it is as I mentioned before, for fun to pass the time while new gameplay info becomes available. Sorry you don't see it in that light as that is it's intention.

 

[Alphawolf]

Native American are already in the game i.e. Aztecs, etc. But I assume you mean North America Amerindians and I agree although the hey day of the North Americans was well before the first contact with Europe, with a city a near St. Louis larger than 50 thousand, and a BC era civilization in the Mississippi Delta had so much plentiful food that they created complex social orders and civilization before they even had agriculture. Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Remember the Amerindians were able to run off the Vikings in the 1000's.
-the Wolf

 

[Hannabir]

Cahokia is my no means the heyday of the region. The number of citizens was 20,000 at its maximum, and at that point they could not feed them. In comparison, the Iroquois empire - which included parts of present-day Canada as well - reached much higher.

 

[mossmonster]

One expects a certain minimum of knowledge. It is not like I said anything new, or like it is hard to find.

We aren't having a private conversation. I ask you for a third time, please provide your evidence, for everyone to see, in keeping with the thread topic and in support of your many earlier claims, what specific reasons do you believe Northern native americans should be included in civ4 as one of the original 18 starting civs.

 

[Alphawolf]

yes, according to the book, not only the mayas and the incas did, but also north american natives. American natives had many cities and a population of about 100 million (!). It was only after 90% of the population died of small pox and other viruses

There is another new book, I don't remember the title off the top of my head, that explains how the loss of North American agriculture lead to reforestation which may have changed the climate enough to cause the Mini Ice Age.
-the Wolf

 

[civspain]

okay the only north american native american civ that should be in the game would be the most advanced north american indian civ would be the pueblo indians of new mexico

 

[Alphawolf]

The Problem is that there is no archaeological evidence for a north-american high-culture. Compare that with the evidences for Mayas, Incas etc.

There is actually the best is the mound builders who left many, many "sculptures" behind in the mid west, including a great rendition of a snake in Ohio.
-the Wolf

 

[Alphawolf]

by empire i mean united grupe under a central goverment that is expansive or something similer to this...

thay whear never united, never one ppl, not even any goverment more advanced then tribalism.

The Greeks didn't have a central government until Phillip, and the Iroquois had a council of the five tribes. Also what is a more advanced government? A despot that kills his people or a tribal government lead by the elders that consider everyone’s opinion (everyone = all freemen or head of families/clans depending on which tribe).

 

[elderotter]

well native americans are in the game incas,and aztecs, but i do realize people prob mean north american natives but the north americans indians are the same race as south american indians,so the astecs represent for all native americans,it just so happeneds that the great american native civilizations or from south and central america.

actually mexico where the aztecs come from is North America.

 

[Alphawolf]

He notes that the Americas never developed writing.

WHAT? The Mayas had a complex writing system. They had books that thanks to Spanish missionaries only two of which survive today. Some of the Northern tribes developed writing after being exposed to it from Europe. The Cherokee Sequoia developed an original writing system for his people in the early 1800's

 

[drjones]

We aren't having a private conversation. I ask you for a third time, please provide your evidence, for everyone to see, in keeping with the thread topic and in support of your many earlier claims,

The book in question, 1491 New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus has a 46 page bibliography referencing 18 different periodicals and journals. You want him to reproduce the text of the entire book and each of those articles just to prove something to a stranger about a game?

what specific reasons do you believe Northern native americans should be included in civ4 as one of the original 18 starting civs.

You are the only poster I have seen suggest that an adittional american civ should replace one shipped with the game. Considering the game is currently being shipped to stores this is a completely pointless argument, and more importantly it is not what the original poster suggested.

I apologize for being pulled into this pointless argument.
-drjones