New NESes, ideas, development, etc
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Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Correct! Orthodoxy and Catholicism, in this, are used interchangeably to describe the Christian Church. Constantinople and Rome (now Frankfurt) have excommunicated each other at various points in the TL, but never was the split as lasting or final as in OTL. The presence of Metropolitan Archbishops in the West as a roughly equivalent rank to the autocephalous Patriarchs is the biggest hallmark of this, the two terms used somewhat interchangeably.
There have still been serious struggles for Papal primacy, but in large part this has been settled in favor of Conciliarism. The doctrine of Papal primacy "in accordance with" the Ecumenical councils of the Christian Church is still advanced by the Emperor's court and allies, but this is largely viewed as a front for perfidious Frankish ambitions.
(Just getting everyone else on board, Frankish means 'German' in this TL.)
The wars of the 16th century, in particular, were defined by the Frankish Emperor's attempts, which ultimately failed, to create a unified Synod for the whole Christian Church. (They haven't really abandoned that goal though.)
---
Alright broskis this is the tentative schedule. I'm taking the MCATs on the 15th and then flying back to Texas on the 17th, after which I can do serious work on this NES. As soon as I get a completed map (probably like early February, earlier if I'm super efficient) I'll launch a preview thread, with short nation descriptions. Feel free to ask me questions until then if you want.
I am thinking I will open the Ambrosian and Florentine Systems for multiple players to allow for EXTRA REALISTIC squabbling. I know TMG wants to play Rome, and getting another player to be Florence would be...interesting. Of course, I would rather get all the continents filled out than have 10 players in Italy, but I'll take what I can get.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Alright, I did North Africa! Things are a little complicated, so I decided I'd do a little write-up while I took a break from studying.
Beni Asafu
Mukhtarid Emirate (Emirate of Fes)
Ait Zeddidegh
Jatafid Sultanate (Sultanate of Ifriqiya)
Kel Dhinni (Fezzan)
Kel Tinariwen (Niger)
The Emirate of Cyrenaica
Kingdom of Ægypt
Emirate of Sinai
Patriarchate of Coptos
The situation in Morocco is currently extremely tense. The Andalusians, themselves Mozarabic Christians of North African origin, have long preferred to exert their influence in Morocco through a network of client states rather than through direct rule. It was one such client, a Sufi Emir of Fes, that founded the Mukhtarid dynasty around 1450, with Andalusian funding and support.
For about 100 years this arrangement was extremely profitable, but Mukhtarid tolerance gradually backslid into decadence. Berber rebellions against the Arabized mercantile elite of northern Morocco gradually gained in force, and over the last generation the Mukhtarids gradually retreated north of the Atlas Mountains.
As the Mukhtarids declined, the Andalusians took more direct control of North Africa, seizing Tangier and Oran. The Beni Asafu, an Islamic purification movement started by Berbers influenced by the Kharijite school, have defeated Mukhtarid armies in battle and are preparing to assault the heartland of Morocco. It is unclear if the Andalusians will bail out their beleaguered clients yet again, but the alternative may be worse.
Algiers, once the possession of an Andalusian client, was seized from them by the Genoans as part of a trade war in the 1500's to defeat Andalusian-sponsored pirates. With the increasing relevance of trans-Atlantic trade, Algiers has proven, along with Greece, to be an interminable drain on the Republic's treasury, mostly due to equally interminable raids from the tribal kingdom of Ait Zeddidegh, a small but expanding Kabylian Berber confederacy.
The Jatafid Sultanate is an old, prestigious dynasty that is mostly consumed by inertia but still commands a fair amount of respect in North Africa due to winning several great victories against the Christians some generations ago, most notably liberating Tunis from Italian adventurers and defeating Ægyptian armies in battle. They recently lost control of ever-troublesome Cyrenaica as the ulemmist revolution begins to progress outward from Syria.
Across the desert, the Tuareg nomads have united the tribes under the rule of a high queen evoking the ancient legends of the founder of their people. This tribal confederacy, the Kel Tinariwen, has captured the lands of the northern Niger, and the queen has spoken of needing to change the ways of the Tuareg people to adapt to a changing world, especially as trans-Saharan trade routes continue to decline. It is unclear if the confederacy can exist beyond the death of their queen.
Cyrenaica, inspired by the reforms of the Alshamids, has recently overthrown their Jatafid-appointed emir in favor of an ulemmist approach of leaders appointed by the scholarly community. The legacy of Ægyptian rule, thrown off around 1430, is a decently sized local community of Christians and Jews. The Kel Dhinni are a tribal confederacy built around the wadis of Fezzan. They are similar in their Tuareg culture to the Kel Tinariwen far across the Sahara to the south, and trade with them.
Finally, we come to Ægypt. The crusader kingdom, extant as early as 1115, has entered what may be its final phase of decline, absent a new crusade which seems unlikely given the events transpiring in Europe.
It is undoubtedly a storied kingdom, having won the famous Siege of Alexandria against the Mongols by the divine intervention of angels. For much of the medieval period, the kingdom was able to gain immeasurably wealthy on trade with India, war with the declining Byzantines, and project power into Cyrenaica and Judaea.
But the goal of capturing Jerusalem ever eluded the kingdom despite several new crusades. Like the ancient Greek rulers of the land, the mostly Normano-Albian nobility have, despite some cultural mixing, held themselves above the churning mix of Copts and Arabs that compose the bulk of the population. A great Coptic revolt in the 14th century resulted in the expulsion of the Coptic patriarch (who, appropriately, fled to Coptos) and his replacement with an orthodox metropolitan, which endeared the kings to no one.
It was arguably Ægypt which kickstarted the Renaissance, due to its sustained interactions with the cultures of the East. However, as time went on, the nation fell more and more into the sphere of Italian merchants who dominated the kingdom's trade, and the kings gradually grew increasingly dependent on Genoan mercenaries.
Ægypt has fascinated Europeans for centuries, and is often compared to Andalusia with its turbaned kings and rich interplay of varied cultures. But it is undoubtedly declining, as the great Islamic revival begun in al-Sham sweeps south. The Emir of Sinai, a longstanding foe of Ægypt, has aligned himself with the Syrians, though as of yet he has been cautious in maintaining his own independence.
Upper Ægypt itself is, as it has been for almost a century, controlled by Alexandria in name only. A chaotic mixture of Coptic, Catholic, and Islamic tribes of all sects and stripes, as well as a few outposts of knightly European orders, exist in a chaotic milieu. The Alshamids have yet to begin their proper push into Ægypt despite a few probing raids, but it is coming, and an over-committed Genoa seems unlikely to save Alexandria yet again.
Beni Asafu
Mukhtarid Emirate (Emirate of Fes)
Ait Zeddidegh
Jatafid Sultanate (Sultanate of Ifriqiya)
Kel Dhinni (Fezzan)
Kel Tinariwen (Niger)
The Emirate of Cyrenaica
Kingdom of Ægypt
Emirate of Sinai
Patriarchate of Coptos
The situation in Morocco is currently extremely tense. The Andalusians, themselves Mozarabic Christians of North African origin, have long preferred to exert their influence in Morocco through a network of client states rather than through direct rule. It was one such client, a Sufi Emir of Fes, that founded the Mukhtarid dynasty around 1450, with Andalusian funding and support.
For about 100 years this arrangement was extremely profitable, but Mukhtarid tolerance gradually backslid into decadence. Berber rebellions against the Arabized mercantile elite of northern Morocco gradually gained in force, and over the last generation the Mukhtarids gradually retreated north of the Atlas Mountains.
As the Mukhtarids declined, the Andalusians took more direct control of North Africa, seizing Tangier and Oran. The Beni Asafu, an Islamic purification movement started by Berbers influenced by the Kharijite school, have defeated Mukhtarid armies in battle and are preparing to assault the heartland of Morocco. It is unclear if the Andalusians will bail out their beleaguered clients yet again, but the alternative may be worse.
Algiers, once the possession of an Andalusian client, was seized from them by the Genoans as part of a trade war in the 1500's to defeat Andalusian-sponsored pirates. With the increasing relevance of trans-Atlantic trade, Algiers has proven, along with Greece, to be an interminable drain on the Republic's treasury, mostly due to equally interminable raids from the tribal kingdom of Ait Zeddidegh, a small but expanding Kabylian Berber confederacy.
The Jatafid Sultanate is an old, prestigious dynasty that is mostly consumed by inertia but still commands a fair amount of respect in North Africa due to winning several great victories against the Christians some generations ago, most notably liberating Tunis from Italian adventurers and defeating Ægyptian armies in battle. They recently lost control of ever-troublesome Cyrenaica as the ulemmist revolution begins to progress outward from Syria.
Across the desert, the Tuareg nomads have united the tribes under the rule of a high queen evoking the ancient legends of the founder of their people. This tribal confederacy, the Kel Tinariwen, has captured the lands of the northern Niger, and the queen has spoken of needing to change the ways of the Tuareg people to adapt to a changing world, especially as trans-Saharan trade routes continue to decline. It is unclear if the confederacy can exist beyond the death of their queen.
Cyrenaica, inspired by the reforms of the Alshamids, has recently overthrown their Jatafid-appointed emir in favor of an ulemmist approach of leaders appointed by the scholarly community. The legacy of Ægyptian rule, thrown off around 1430, is a decently sized local community of Christians and Jews. The Kel Dhinni are a tribal confederacy built around the wadis of Fezzan. They are similar in their Tuareg culture to the Kel Tinariwen far across the Sahara to the south, and trade with them.
Finally, we come to Ægypt. The crusader kingdom, extant as early as 1115, has entered what may be its final phase of decline, absent a new crusade which seems unlikely given the events transpiring in Europe.
It is undoubtedly a storied kingdom, having won the famous Siege of Alexandria against the Mongols by the divine intervention of angels. For much of the medieval period, the kingdom was able to gain immeasurably wealthy on trade with India, war with the declining Byzantines, and project power into Cyrenaica and Judaea.
But the goal of capturing Jerusalem ever eluded the kingdom despite several new crusades. Like the ancient Greek rulers of the land, the mostly Normano-Albian nobility have, despite some cultural mixing, held themselves above the churning mix of Copts and Arabs that compose the bulk of the population. A great Coptic revolt in the 14th century resulted in the expulsion of the Coptic patriarch (who, appropriately, fled to Coptos) and his replacement with an orthodox metropolitan, which endeared the kings to no one.
It was arguably Ægypt which kickstarted the Renaissance, due to its sustained interactions with the cultures of the East. However, as time went on, the nation fell more and more into the sphere of Italian merchants who dominated the kingdom's trade, and the kings gradually grew increasingly dependent on Genoan mercenaries.
Ægypt has fascinated Europeans for centuries, and is often compared to Andalusia with its turbaned kings and rich interplay of varied cultures. But it is undoubtedly declining, as the great Islamic revival begun in al-Sham sweeps south. The Emir of Sinai, a longstanding foe of Ægypt, has aligned himself with the Syrians, though as of yet he has been cautious in maintaining his own independence.
Upper Ægypt itself is, as it has been for almost a century, controlled by Alexandria in name only. A chaotic mixture of Coptic, Catholic, and Islamic tribes of all sects and stripes, as well as a few outposts of knightly European orders, exist in a chaotic milieu. The Alshamids have yet to begin their proper push into Ægypt despite a few probing raids, but it is coming, and an over-committed Genoa seems unlikely to save Alexandria yet again.
DC123456789
Deity
Just by the way, Mozarabs aren't Arabs at all, but were most likely Romano-Hispanics who ended up under the Muslims, so it's a little weird to have them originate from North Africa.
Egypt's map certainly looks interesting, but it would probably be better if most of the smaller states touched the Nile (obviously), since it looks like some of them are basically sitting on desert and a few oases.
Egypt's map certainly looks interesting, but it would probably be better if most of the smaller states touched the Nile (obviously), since it looks like some of them are basically sitting on desert and a few oases.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
I'm using 'Mozarabic' in the sense of 'A Christian who adopts Arab mannerisms and culture'. I am well aware of the fact that the actual mechanism of action, in this instance, is the reverse.
And some of those bros are just actual desert tribes organized around oases. Calling them 'states' is probably a bit excessive; they're just Bedouins with disparate loyalties, attracted by the wealth and mercenary opportunity of the Egyptian vortex.
And some of those bros are just actual desert tribes organized around oases. Calling them 'states' is probably a bit excessive; they're just Bedouins with disparate loyalties, attracted by the wealth and mercenary opportunity of the Egyptian vortex.
Communisto
Condottiere
If this goes down I'd love to take Genoa.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Oh it's going down. I finally took the MCATs today, huge weight off my back. I'll be doing Ruthenia and the rest of the Near East next.
Communisto
Condottiere
What is this frontier everyone was talking about a few pages back? I've been away for so long.
As does Lisbon
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
Naturally I'm waiting for Asia
DC123456789
Deity
Waiting to see the rest of the Near/Middle East, but I think I'm interested in the Greek Empire or Asturias.
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Nice to see you back. It's basically an alternate forum where a lot of NESers split to due to differences with CFC mods.
Diavolo Rosso
Lord Giggles
what were differences - out of curiosity. or is it bad juju to speak of the mods
Bad juju, at least on this thread. It's not really what this thread is for, so I'd suggest taking it to While We Wait.
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
Do you have a map to go with that ruleset?
Speaking of maps, I should have the Middle East and India done soonish.
Speaking of maps, I should have the Middle East and India done soonish.
SouthernKing
crickety cricket
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
So why don't we talk about my very messy rough draft ideas for the Middle East and India. Names and borders still subject to change, particularly in Maharashtra when I know like, internal geography better.
The Roman Empire (in Constantinople, as opposed to Belograd) is, of course, a puppet of Genoa, who have kept it alive for centuries, first out of mercantile considerations, and after that, out of a grim realization that neither have very many friends. The other reason that the Empire has survived is that for the past century, a line of competent hyperstrategoi (chosen with Genoan assent) have viciously cracked down on the Byzantine nobility, centralized the state administration, and sidelined the Emperor himself, who is a puppet of a puppet. This has saved Constantinople from Mongol, Magyar, and Serbian overthrow for now, but it is still a prize.
The various Tumenates of Anadolin mostly squabble amongst themselves, having been cut off from effective imperial authority by the Alshamid rebellion. Most of the heartland of Anatolia has, after years of Mongol conquest and colonization, become ethnically Mongolian outside of the Nicene and Ionian regions.
The Alshamid Emirate is effectively an elective monarchy, relying on the opinion of the ulema to decide on the appropriate Sayyid to rule. Originally launched into rebellion 50 years ago by a brilliant polymath firebrand emir named al-Radi, they have thrown off the Mongolian dominion with their esoteric interpretations of Islam, and returned to a more directly Koranic, although not necessarily intolerant, Islam. The ulemmist approach has proven extremely successful for a region sick of inbred and infighting sons squabbling over the people's resources. Most importantly, they have proven unafraid of staffing the civil service with competent Jews and Syriac Christians.
The Emirate of Aden arose mostly through trade between Egypt and India, and this route proved immensely successful for many years. As Egypt and Mediterranean trade in general declines, the Emirate has lost much of its former strength, but it struggles on, dealing with increasingly annoying tribal and Andalusian pirate raids. It threatens to cave to Andalusian power entirely.
The Dominions of the Kanishah, also known as the Moghul Empire, are not the world empire they used to be, but they are still a potent dragon, if wounded and pressed on many fronts. A Perso-Mongol empire that has mostly (but not completely) assimilated to Persian, they simultaneously claim title of Caliph, Shah, and Great Khan. A warrior class of Mongols still exists, though with the rebellion and loss of Anatolia, most of them are no longer in service to the Kanishah, who prefers to use artillery and massed infantry tactics over the light cavalry of old.
Next to them in India is the Ertugid Sultanate, a native Indo-Turkic state which has finally thrown off the oppressive rule of the Kanishah's dominions. They have an interesting hybrid culture which includes Persian, Buddhist, and Mongol influences.
A fractious alliance of Rajput clans rules Maharashtra, perpetually rebelling against Moghul influence but also endlessly feuding with each other, when there isn't a self-evident Perso-Turkish threat to unite against.
The Aravithi Empire, originally a modest clan of Telugu warriors from the coastlands of Andhra cowering in the Kanishah's endless shadow, has over the course of the past 200 years built themselves into a majestic Hindu dynasty which is now reaching its peak. They have renovated the ancient fortress of Golconda into their new imperial capital and grown rich on 'managing' trade with the colonialist powers. The two languages of the empire are Telugu and Kannada, and edicts issued in each have smoothed potential ethnic friction.
The Bengali-based state is Sri Nevayana, the latest theocracy grown from a powerful martial form of Buddhism that incorporates Mohammed and Allah as a boddhisatva and deva of war. This hybrid faith, born in the 11th century in response to the Turkish conquest of Bengal, has spread across the sea, and even into the jungles of Kamboja. It is in dialogue with an empirical tradition that has emerged in Southern China, though the much more minimalist strain of Buddhism that proved triumphant there is ultimately extremely different in character. Additionally, the Nevayani eschew the caste system, resulting in a more egalitarian, and functional, society for the poor. They conquered the Rakhine lands, who were mostly easily assimilated, being fellow Buddhists to begin with.
The Nevayani are currently engaged in vicious border wars in the Ganga and Lanka with the Turks and the Dutch, two enemies who could not be more different if you begged them to be. (Though more likely it's Nevayani clients in Lanka.)
Treaty ports belonging to Andalusia, Normandy, and the League can be seen next to a Tamil state I haven't named yet cause I suck at Tamil, lol. Cholas!!??!?!?? ???
There's also a little Armenian state and some random muckety-muck Arabs doing Arab stuff out in the desert. Who knows. I think it's an interesting setup because the colonial game is heating up, but at least a few of the Indian powers are in much more decent shape to resist it. I want to work on an independent empirical tradition for Asia but my undoubtedly Orientalist Western mind just...can't...comprehend it...
Caucasus, Russia, and Central Asia next. Then East and South Asia. Then the Americas and Africa. Then I'll polish stuff and make changes.
Spoiler :
The Roman Empire (in Constantinople, as opposed to Belograd) is, of course, a puppet of Genoa, who have kept it alive for centuries, first out of mercantile considerations, and after that, out of a grim realization that neither have very many friends. The other reason that the Empire has survived is that for the past century, a line of competent hyperstrategoi (chosen with Genoan assent) have viciously cracked down on the Byzantine nobility, centralized the state administration, and sidelined the Emperor himself, who is a puppet of a puppet. This has saved Constantinople from Mongol, Magyar, and Serbian overthrow for now, but it is still a prize.
The various Tumenates of Anadolin mostly squabble amongst themselves, having been cut off from effective imperial authority by the Alshamid rebellion. Most of the heartland of Anatolia has, after years of Mongol conquest and colonization, become ethnically Mongolian outside of the Nicene and Ionian regions.
The Alshamid Emirate is effectively an elective monarchy, relying on the opinion of the ulema to decide on the appropriate Sayyid to rule. Originally launched into rebellion 50 years ago by a brilliant polymath firebrand emir named al-Radi, they have thrown off the Mongolian dominion with their esoteric interpretations of Islam, and returned to a more directly Koranic, although not necessarily intolerant, Islam. The ulemmist approach has proven extremely successful for a region sick of inbred and infighting sons squabbling over the people's resources. Most importantly, they have proven unafraid of staffing the civil service with competent Jews and Syriac Christians.
The Emirate of Aden arose mostly through trade between Egypt and India, and this route proved immensely successful for many years. As Egypt and Mediterranean trade in general declines, the Emirate has lost much of its former strength, but it struggles on, dealing with increasingly annoying tribal and Andalusian pirate raids. It threatens to cave to Andalusian power entirely.
The Dominions of the Kanishah, also known as the Moghul Empire, are not the world empire they used to be, but they are still a potent dragon, if wounded and pressed on many fronts. A Perso-Mongol empire that has mostly (but not completely) assimilated to Persian, they simultaneously claim title of Caliph, Shah, and Great Khan. A warrior class of Mongols still exists, though with the rebellion and loss of Anatolia, most of them are no longer in service to the Kanishah, who prefers to use artillery and massed infantry tactics over the light cavalry of old.
Next to them in India is the Ertugid Sultanate, a native Indo-Turkic state which has finally thrown off the oppressive rule of the Kanishah's dominions. They have an interesting hybrid culture which includes Persian, Buddhist, and Mongol influences.
A fractious alliance of Rajput clans rules Maharashtra, perpetually rebelling against Moghul influence but also endlessly feuding with each other, when there isn't a self-evident Perso-Turkish threat to unite against.
The Aravithi Empire, originally a modest clan of Telugu warriors from the coastlands of Andhra cowering in the Kanishah's endless shadow, has over the course of the past 200 years built themselves into a majestic Hindu dynasty which is now reaching its peak. They have renovated the ancient fortress of Golconda into their new imperial capital and grown rich on 'managing' trade with the colonialist powers. The two languages of the empire are Telugu and Kannada, and edicts issued in each have smoothed potential ethnic friction.
The Bengali-based state is Sri Nevayana, the latest theocracy grown from a powerful martial form of Buddhism that incorporates Mohammed and Allah as a boddhisatva and deva of war. This hybrid faith, born in the 11th century in response to the Turkish conquest of Bengal, has spread across the sea, and even into the jungles of Kamboja. It is in dialogue with an empirical tradition that has emerged in Southern China, though the much more minimalist strain of Buddhism that proved triumphant there is ultimately extremely different in character. Additionally, the Nevayani eschew the caste system, resulting in a more egalitarian, and functional, society for the poor. They conquered the Rakhine lands, who were mostly easily assimilated, being fellow Buddhists to begin with.
The Nevayani are currently engaged in vicious border wars in the Ganga and Lanka with the Turks and the Dutch, two enemies who could not be more different if you begged them to be.
(Though more likely it's Nevayani clients in Lanka.)Treaty ports belonging to Andalusia, Normandy, and the League can be seen next to a Tamil state I haven't named yet cause I suck at Tamil, lol. Cholas!!??!?!?? ???
There's also a little Armenian state and some random muckety-muck Arabs doing Arab stuff out in the desert. Who knows. I think it's an interesting setup because the colonial game is heating up, but at least a few of the Indian powers are in much more decent shape to resist it. I want to work on an independent empirical tradition for Asia but my undoubtedly Orientalist Western mind just...can't...comprehend it...
Caucasus, Russia, and Central Asia next. Then East and South Asia. Then the Americas and Africa. Then I'll polish stuff and make changes.
thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
I'd be interested in playing the Roman Empire. Interesting potential stories there.
Communisto
Condottiere
Very cool. I know you're probably busy scribbling in Asia, but I have some questions about the religious makeup of Europe if you've got the time.
