Vox Populi Congress Proposal Workshop

[pineappledan]

Disagree. Council of Elders is one of the more interactive founders. There are many founders (eg Holy Law, Transcendence) designed far more around “doing nothing”. You put in the work early and with a little luck your converts will start spreading for you. That’s fine, you should be rewarded for founding early and spreading uncontested. Difficulty in balancing notwithstanding, Council of Elders is one of the more fun founder beliefs. I would want MORE founders like it, not less.

 

[pineappledan]

Inquisition: (added) +100 spy points.
This belief remains weak and honestly fairly unfun, there is just nothing sexy here. However, getting access to an extra (and early spy), opens up more of the fun of the spy game for people that want to focus on that area

Whil I agree that Inquisition needs a change, I disagree with this fix.

What I would propose is this:
Remove: -33% cost reduction to Inquisitors
Remove: Spies exert +50 Religious Pressure (standard speed) on the City they occupy and +2 Happiness if in a Foreign City
Add: Inquisitors remove 25% more foreign pressure when expended.
Add: Cities receive +50% Pressure for your religion if an Inquisitor is stationed there.

Spies are tech-locked, and are therefore most appropriate as a reformation bonus. They should not be on an enhancer, which is usually unlocked a full era before spies. Stalker’s proposal doubles-down this era-locked bonus instead of focusing on the religion mechanics, which is something an Enhancer ought to be focusing on. If we want to talk about moving the spy bonuses to a reformation belief I am far more in favor of that.

An additional 25% heresy removal means 75% foreign pressure removed on expend. This is equivalent to expending 2 inquisitors in the same turn (halve foreign pressure in a city and then halve it again). Compared to the -33% Faith cost reduction, it is equivalent to reducing the Faith cost to -50%, but also reduces micro.

As a result, the deconversion on inquisitor action will be larger, which will mean more instant . Hopefully that would give people a more positive impression of the instant yields, though I don’t expect it would move the needle much. Just better game feel.

 

[Stalker0]

Whil I agree that Inquisition needs a change, I disagree with this fix.

What I would propose is this:
Remove: -33% cost reduction to Inquisitors
Remove: Spies exert +50 Religious Pressure (standard speed) on the City they occupy and +2 Happiness if in a Foreign City
Add: Inquisitors remove 25% more foreign pressure when expended.
Add: Cities receive +50% Pressure for your religion if an Inquisitor is stationed there.

Spies are tech-locked, and are therefore most appropriate as a reformation bonus. They should not be on an enhancer, which is usually unlocked a full era before spies. Stalker’s proposal doubles-down this era-locked bonus instead of focusing on the religion mechanics, which is something an Enhancer ought to be focusing on. If we want to talk about moving the spy bonuses to a reformation belief I am far more in favor of that.

An additional 25% heresy removal means 75% foreign pressure removed on expend. This is equivalent to expending 2 inquisitors in the same turn (halve foreign pressure in a city and then halve it again). Compared to the -33% Faith cost reduction, it is equivalent to reducing the Faith cost to -50%, but also reduces micro.

As a result, the deconversion on inquisitor action will be larger, which will mean more instant . Hopefully that would give people a more positive impression of the instant yields, though I don’t expect it would move the needle much. Just better game feel.

The problem here is that this continues to try and make inquisitors something they are not,, and so its a steep incline to get it there. Now if you want to make it +75% pressure and maybe +1 happy if you have an inquisitor there, I could maybe see that, but I think it needs to do SOMETHING other than just better inquisitor. I mean if I want pressure I can take orthodoxy and get a lot more pressure for no faith cost, or universalism and just enjoy benefits for all of this foreign pressure I would otherwise spend faith removing.

The point about extra spies so early is fair, and if we think that's too much perhaps a reformation would be a good place to put some of those spy benefits.

 

[pineappledan]

It still gives on removal. Orthodoxy gives no yields.
building pressure in your own city 50% faster doubles down on inquisitors defensive orientation without stepping on the toes of faith buildings that provide passive resistance. I disagree that it is "making inquisitors something they are not". This builds self-pressure faster than Orthodoxy and in a way that you have more minute control over, but does not spread indiscriminately.
I do think that the Inquisition belief needs to boost both the passive and active functions of Inquisitors somehow though.

+1 in a city would be... fine. Not great. One of the main reasons you remove heresy in the first place is to remove Religious strife. Giving a passive bonus that steps on the toes of the active bonus doesn't seem suitable to me.

 

[Stalker0]

+1 in a city would be... fine. Not great. One of the main reasons you remove heresy in the first place is to remove Religious strife. Giving a passive bonus that steps on the toes of the active bonus doesn't seem suitable to me.

There would be 0 stepping on toes here. +1 happy is always welcome no matter how little religious strife you have. That said, 1 musician tour gives the same bonus in all cities, so maybe its not that sexy anyway.

 

[pineappledan]

What I would propose for Spain:

UA:

• Remove maintenance free bonus from Inquisitors
• Inquisitors removes +25% more foreign pressure

Conquistador

• Conquistador settle limit changed from different landmass from Capital to 12 tiles distance from capital
• Conquistador-settled cities receive 1000 pressure from your Capital's majority religion on settle.
• Mission building removed (no longer purchaseable in conquistador-settled cities)

Hacienda

• Change the hacienda resource adjacent bonuses from:
  • Yield per adjacent bonus resource changed from +3 to +3
  • Yield per adjacent luxury resource changed from +3 to +3
  • Yield per adjacent Strategic resource changed from +3 to +3

Reason for Change:
- Spain has been doing very badly in test games for a long time. They are consistently bottom-tier despite numerous attempts to buff them, like lowering the faith cost of their ship purchases, and increasing their UI's yields. Numerous players have also complained about how they feel to play.
The thing that I identify as the main problem with Spain is that they are brittle and pretty janky. Unlike other UI's, the Hacienda only makes good settle locations even better, and only amplifies the yields that are already in a location instead of giving different yields. The Inquisitor bonuses are irrelevant and don't matter in many playthroughs. While the change to the Conquistador being an explorer unit made it faster and better at settling distant cities, the landmass restriction itself makes that bonus too hard to use, and varies wildly on map settings.
- The UA's maintenance-free bonus is meh. Hardly worth mentioning. Removing 25% more foreign pressure would be a meaty bonus that would make Spanish inquisitors impactful. It would also combine with my proposed +25% pressure removal on the Inquisition enhancer belief to give Spanish Inquisitors 100% foreign pressure removal on expend. Synergy .
- Conquistador's settle limitation is a massive impediment to Spain's viability on Pangea maps. Changing this to a minimum distance restriction would give Spain more flexibility.
- The Mission was never meant to be a permanent solution. It works off of dummy buildings and backdoor solutions that have no business staying in the main mod.
- The Hacienda's current bonuses for adjacency double-down on the yields that those resource types already give. As a result, it gives a -heavy location even more , and a -heavy area even more . If we mix up the adjacency bonuses a bit the Hacienda will help Spain have more well-rounded cities.

 

[pineappledan]

There would be 0 stepping on toes here. +1 happy is always welcome no matter how little religious strife you have. That said, 1 musician tour gives the same bonus in all cities, so maybe its not that sexy anyway.

Hence why I say it would be Fine. It's not a major bonus, and the effect would be felt, but no more than building passive pressure. The passive pressure bonus would reduce religious strife, and therefore have an indirect impact on happiness, but would do it in a way that is more consistent with the Inquisitor's theme. It would also have non-happiness effects like having more followers on empire.

 

[Stalker0]

What I would propose for Spain:

UA:

• Remove maintenance free bonus from Inquisitors
• Inquisitors removes +25% more foreign pressure

Conquistador

• Conquistador settle limit changed from different landmass from Capital to 12 tiles distance from capital
• Conquistador-settled cities receive 1000 pressure from your Capital's majority religion on settle.
• Mission building removed (no longer purchaseable in conquistador-settled cities)

Hacienda

• Change the hacienda resource adjacent bonuses from:
  • Yield per adjacent bonus resource changed from +3 to +3
  • Yield per adjacent luxury resource changed from +3 to +3
  • Yield per adjacent Strategic resource changed from +3 to +3

Reason for Change:
- Spain has been doing very badly in test games for a long time. They are consistently bottom-tier despite numerous attempts to buff them, like lowering the faith cost of their ship purchases, and increasing their UI's yields. Numerous players have also complained about how they feel to play.
The thing that I identify as the main problem with Spain is that they are brittle and pretty janky. Unlike other UI's, the Hacienda only makes good settle locations even better, and only amplifies the yields that are already in a location instead of giving different yields. The Inquisitor bonuses are irrelevant and don't matter in many playthroughs. While the change to the Conquistador being an explorer unit made it faster and better at settling distant cities, the landmass restriction itself makes that bonus too hard to use, and varies wildly on map settings.
- The UA's maintenance-free bonus is meh. Hardly worth mentioning. Removing 25% more foreign pressure would be a meaty bonus that would make Spanish inquisitors impactful. It would also combine with my proposed +25% pressure removal on the Inquisition enhancer belief to give Spanish Inquisitors 100% foreign pressure removal on expend. Synergy .
- Conquistador's settle limitation is a massive impediment to Spain's viability on Pangea maps. Changing this to a minimum distance restriction would give Spain more flexibility.
- The Mission was never meant to be a permanent solution. It works off of dummy buildings and backdoor solutions that have no business staying in the main mod.
- The Hacienda's current bonuses for adjacency double-down on the yields that those resource types already give. As a result, it gives a -heavy location even more , and a -heavy area even more . If we mix up the adjacency bonuses a bit the Hacienda will help Spain have more well-rounded cities.

I played a series of Spain starts recently, and yeah its hard to put my finger on it, but playing as Spain just felt like a +.5 difficulty bonus compared to a lot of other civs.

Honestly the inquisitor is a non-factor for me in many games. Spain already has a strong religious play, you are going to found early, and spread fast. As such I rarely find myself threatened by enemy pressure where I feel that stronger inquisitors were really a blessing in my game. The inquisition belief....I would never take as Spain, spain tends to its own pressure just fine in most games I've played. If you really wanted to make their inquisitors cool, they probably need to be able to inquisit in other people's borders...but I assume people would just hate that like some people hate America's bonus.

The Conquistador change feels like a QoL for pangea maps which is perfectly fine. Removing the mission has pros and cons, I think its fine.

I will say the conquistador is a very advanced UU. It can be fun to utilize, but it takes WORK, otherwise it can actually feel weaker than fielding other units. Its not the kind of UU you can just spam and go, its a thinking man's UU, and so probably one reason the AI struggles.

I wouldn't mind the hacienda coming in a bit earlier, it often feels like its a long time in the game before I unlock the "real Spain"

 

[pineappledan]

If you really wanted to make their inquisitors cool, they probably need to be able to inquisit in other people's borders...but I assume people would just hate that like some people hate America's bonus.

Spain already has some pretty cool stuff going on; it just needs to be usable.

The Conquistador change feels like a QoL for pangea maps which is perfectly fine. Removing the mission has pros and cons, I think its fine.

I will say the conquistador is a very advanced UU. It can be fun to utilize, but it takes WORK, otherwise it can actually feel weaker than fielding other units. Its not the kind of UU you can just spam and go, its a thinking man's UU, and so probably one reason the AI struggles.

We sacrificed the “conventional” knight replacement so that the UU could bring the settling bonus to bear. However, With that settling restriction the settle mechanic is still too unweildly. As it stands the UU is at a half measure; it’s not a standout combat unit, but its non-combat utility isn’t consistent enough either.

I wouldn't mind the hacienda coming in a bit earlier, it often feels like its a long time in the game before I unlock the "real Spain"

Could unlock at Steel, maybe. Don’t know what would be best.

 

[ma_kuh]

I still favor consolidating the Inquisitor effects onto the Inquisition belief and leaving Spain free to focus on unique settling mechanics, it's the more interesting part of the kit anyway. Leader flavors and historical faith focus notwithstanding, the Inquisitor focus doesn't really enable anything new, it's basically just fluff. If Spanish Inquisitors could get like a Leadership promo or something it would be different, but I think that's not something that can be supported with current code, is that right?

 

[pineappledan]

Yeah that’s the other option. Just axe the inquisitor bonuses. We would need to change the name of the UA then; without the inquisitors the kit has no references to the Reconquista, and is solely focused on the Conquista.

 

[pineappledan]

Proposal to change this:

[Vote] - (6-07) Amphitheater/Gallery/Opera House Gold and Maintenance Adjustment Proposals

(6-07) Increase Amphitheater/Gallery/Opera House Bonus to Guilds https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-09-increase-amphitheater-gallery-opera-house-bonus-to-guilds.685826/ Currently the Amphitheater/Gallery Opera House each give +1 :c5gold: Gold to all Writers/Artists/Musicians Guilds on...

forums.civfanatics.com

A previous congress removed the maintenance costs from Amphitheatre, Opera House, and Gallery. One of the things that was pointed out (by @Rekk ) with that congress proposal was that the old +1 to the guilds for every culture building on empire centralized gold into a handful of guild cities, which are probably not the ones struggling with needs. In fact, this bonus might have had the effect of widening the gap between "have" and "have-not" cities and generating more poverty globally by altering the median gold calculations.

While removing the bonus altogether addressed this issue, The decision to remove all gold maintenance from the 3 culture buildings did a few things that I would like to change:
- weakened the buildings overall and removed the main incentive to build cultural buildings outside of the guild city core.
- created an incongruous situation w.r.t. how gold maintenance is applied. There are so many non-gold building that don't cost maintenance, that the mechanic itself is unintelligible.

Proposal:
Restore the Maintenance cost to Amphitheatre (2), Opera House (4), and Gallery (4)
Writer's Guild gives +2 to Amphitheaters on Empire
Artist's Guild gives +2 to Galleries on Empire
Musician's Guild gives +2 to Opera Houses on Empire

Now instead of concentrating wealth into the guild cities, the guilds add gold in the opposite direction.
I would have liked to have added this as a 3rd option to the last congress, but we are not allowed to counterpropose our own proposals.

 

[Stalker0]

Proposal to change this:

[Vote] - (6-07) Amphitheater/Gallery/Opera House Gold and Maintenance Adjustment Proposals

(6-07) Increase Amphitheater/Gallery/Opera House Bonus to Guilds https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-09-increase-amphitheater-gallery-opera-house-bonus-to-guilds.685826/ Currently the Amphitheater/Gallery Opera House each give +1 :c5gold: Gold to all Writers/Artists/Musicians Guilds on...

forums.civfanatics.com

A previous congress removed the maintenance costs from Amphitheatre, Opera House, and Gallery. One of the things that was pointed out (by @Rekk ) with that congress proposal was that the old +1 to the guilds for every culture building on empire centralized gold into a handful of guild cities, which are probably not the ones struggling with needs. In fact, this bonus might have had the effect of widening the gap between "have" and "have-not" cities and generating more poverty globally by altering the median gold calculations.

While removing the bonus altogether addressed this issue, The decision to remove all gold maintenance from the 3 culture buildings did a few things that I would like to change:
- weakened the buildings overall and removed the main incentive to build cultural buildings outside of the guild city core.
- created an incongruous situation w.r.t. how gold maintenance is applied. There are so many non-gold building that don't cost maintenance, that the mechanic itself is unintelligible.

Proposal:
Restore the Maintenance cost to Amphitheatre (2), Opera House (4), and Gallery (4)
Writer's Guild gives +2 to Amphitheaters on Empire
Artist's Guild gives +2 to Galleries on Empire
Musician's Guild gives +2 to Opera Houses on Empire

Now instead of concentrating wealth into the guild cities, the guilds add gold in the opposite direction.
I would have liked to have added this as a 3rd option to the last congress, but we are not allowed to counterpropose our own proposals.

Why do we need to buff the guilds, is there anyone that doesn't build guilds in their cities? Hell even the musician's guilds are great out of CV now because of the concert giving +1 happy per city. And this isn't a slight bump, that is a LOT of extra gold. Even in a 6 city empire thats an extra +108 GPT!

I don't get this notion that gold maintenance is "unintelligible", its right on the building tooltip. Every single building has unique yields and mechanics that either have to be memorized or looked up on the tooltip. The library gives 1 free urbanization, but the university does not (and the university has an on pop bonus but the library does not). Is that now a problem because we aren't following a perfect formula from one building to the next?

 

[ma_kuh]

I think it needs to do SOMETHING other than just better inquisitor

What about triggering WLTKD in the city? It already removes the Inquisition debuff, so it's adding to the idea that inquisition doesn't slow you down, it propels you. There aren't any Enhancers that interact with WLTKD yet either, and it would be a new way to use Inquisitors (as repeatable Churches) beyond what everyone else gets.

I would also make the case that you might just fold in Thrift as well (I don't usually see a reason to take this belief, I would rather cover gold with any of the other Followers that offer it), like such:
"During WLTKD, cities produce +1 gold for each follower of your religion in the city."
You'd probably replace the +25 gold per conversion with this so you don't double up on gold triggers, but I think it would be better because it helps with needs (instant vs. per-turn gold), and gives you a benefit even if you are already full on followers.

Alternatively something like:
"Owned cities following your religion add 1 gold for each follower of your religion, and subtract 1 gold for each follower of a different religion."
Again the advantage here is that you get an always-on benefit even if you have zero Religious Strife issues -- since the current gold trigger only works on new followers, meaning if you're ahead in the religion race you actually don't get anything.

If you really wanted to make their inquisitors cool, they probably need to be able to inquisit in other people's borders

Actually, now that you mention it, would letting them Inquisition city-states be a good solution? Eh, probably just overlaps it further with Orthodoxy. Maybe not a good idea after all.

 

[CppMaster]

but we are not allowed to counterpropose our own proposals

What? Why not? That's a legit reason to do so.

 

[pineappledan]

And this isn't a slight bump, that is a LOT of extra gold. Even in a 6 city empire thats an extra +108 GPT!

Compared to having no maintenance now that is a net increase of 4 per amphitheater and Net increase of 2 for gallery/opera house. A net increase of 8 gold per city compared to now, or +48 GPT. Let’s not be alarmist.

That GPT would be subject to modifiers and maintenance reductions, so it’s more powerful than the current effect.

I don't get this notion that gold maintenance is "unintelligible", its right on the building tooltip.

If you remove maintenance it is not in the tooltip. Also, why do you want to make players scrutinize building costs for balance implications? This isn’t a special ability, it’s the nullification of a basic format that 99% of other buildings adhere to. The only ones that don’t cost maintenance are buildings with gold as an inherent base yield, Neolithic buildings, and council for some reason.

 

[CppMaster]

If you remove maintenance it is not in the tooltip

No? So what's in the tooltip there? A wrong maintenance value?

 

[usadefcon1]

- Gain 1st Spy in Medieval Era
- Allow multiple Counterspies in a city

New Counterspy Mission:
"Shadow Foreign Spies"
- Capture Chance +10% per level of Counterspy
- ID Chance +50%

Chase Down Foreign Spies renamed
"Interrogate Captured Spies"
Upon Spy Capture:
- Spy is Always Identified / Killed
- Foreign Intrigues Revealed
- Gain 50x counterspy level science, scaling with era.

"Strenthen Local Defenses" Unchanged
"Establish a Counter Network" Unchanged

 

[pineappledan]

Restoring the old +1 , but reversing the bonus so it’s guilds that give the bonus to culture buildings on empire, rather than culture buildings boosting guilds would be acceptable too. The boost to +2 was to get the gallery/opera house/amphitheater to cover their own cost and accentuate the relationship between the buildings and their respective guild.

still preferable to giving no maintenance to buildings that can’t justify it.

Is that now a problem because we aren't following a perfect formula from one building to the next?

Yes, it’s a problem that buildings follow conventions most of the time and then violate them seemingly at random. It makes the game less legible

 

[azum4roll]

The UA's maintenance-free bonus is meh. Hardly worth mentioning. Removing 25% more foreign pressure would be a meaty bonus that would make Spanish inquisitors impactful. It would also combine with my proposed +25% pressure removal on the Inquisition enhancer belief to give Spanish Inquisitors 100% foreign pressure removal on expend. Synergy .

Maintenance-free was added because there's no use for inquisitors you get from conquering others if they already follow your religion. AI does not disband inquisitors. This and the Inquisition belief change need to teach the AI to use inquisitors passively and also disband when they aren't needed.
Side note, there's no synergy with my mod when pressure removal is already 75% base

Conquistador settle limit changed from different landmass from Capital to 12 tiles distance from capital

12 tiles is not that far away. That radius should already be fully settled by the time Conquistadors unlock. Why keep a limit then?
And on Pangaea, it's unlikely you get to settle anywhere at that point.
AI still can't settle with Conquistadors, so that contributes to their weakness in the AI games.

- The Hacienda's current bonuses for adjacency double-down on the yields that those resource types already give. As a result, it gives a -heavy location even more , and a -heavy area even more . If we mix up the adjacency bonuses a bit the Hacienda will help Spain have more well-rounded cities.

That's kinda the point of its design, and is easy to remember.

Chase Down Foreign Spies renamed
"Interrogate Captured Spies"
Upon Spy Capture:
- Spy is Always Identified / Killed
- Foreign Intrigues Revealed
- Gain 50x counterspy level science, scaling with era.

Intrigues don't work like that. There's a large chance that there isn't any intrigue on that turn.
I don't think there's a need for more counterspy missions.

Is that now a problem because we aren't following a perfect formula from one building to the next?

Each exception is more SQL code to maintain!