NEWS: FFHOTM 01 Pre-Game Discussion

[MagisterCultuum]

The only spell in normal FfH that can lover mountains is the tsunami spell, which can only turn them into coasts. Some versions of Sureshot's mod adds more terraforming spells that could hepl you out here.

 

[Vorgen]

oh, by the way, since this sounds like its going to be a very defensive scenario, what do you guys think of spacing cities as close together as they can get? One of my friends who didn't know much about Civ started playing it once, and went through a whole game scrunched together on this small peninsula. He built a lot of small cities as close as they could get to each other, and he did surprisingly well.

 

[Grunthex]

This should be entertaining. I've never played Smarter Orcs, raging barbs, or a small map. Oh, or the Amurites.

I think settling 1N is going to have to be my start as well. I considered 2N, but if I expect to be fighting for my life, that might not work as well. Probably looking at the plains hill north of the cows for 2nd city. Not quite tight-packed, but definitely tighter than my usual no-overlap play.

Not sure what tech the Amurites start with, I think it's Ancient Chants. Not quite sure what order I want to go in, but obviously Animal Husbandry, Crafting and Knowledge of the Ether will be the 3 first key techs. Education along the way, and probably bronze working sooner rather than later.

Can't tell if that's stone or lizard-ruins to the northeast. If ruins, scout needs to bust it asap, if stone, he just needs to focus on huts and a tower. Warrior gets the SW, certain to be a barb farm for a while.

It'll be interesting to see if Vulcans balanced or anyway manipulated our rivals, alignment wise. I don't see a religious focus at all for the Amurites, and being neutral we get no strong hatreds to start. The diplomatic game could be a big deal. I might even have to learn to give into demands...

Ah well. Off to install smarter orcs and play a game or two to see how badly I get destroyed!

 

[giddion]

I always forget what the movement rate is for a settler and the terrain costs, I am going to assume I can make it to where I want to go in the opening turn, else I would re-think it.

Preferred option for capital.
Move settler NW 1 square and WEST 1 square, on the river (if he can make it I would go 1 more square NW, on the other side of the river). This provides me; 1 cow, 2 wine. I get access to several hills for production requirements. The river provides a place for farms and later cottages, with production.

Techs.
This is always a hard one as I generally change my mind depending on the situation. But I think something like....
Exploration, Crafting, Agriculture, Animal Husbandry, then head for Education and writing, then onto Knowledge of Ether. But it depends on my need for production I may go for mining sooner rather then later.

Early movements.
My Warrior will go for the burrow to the south, then proceed for the hut to the SE (by turn 4), then head to tower in the SW before heading back to my capital to stay.
My scout will proceed to the tower NW (turn 2), for a sneak peak. Then onto the Burrow for turn 3 (hope I can get it before a unit spawns). Then proceed to the hut in the East (turn 8), then on to the tower(turn 10). I may stop in at the temple thing if I can but it is not a priority.
Sometimes a steady stream of barbs makes for stronger units for defense.


Positioning of Units.
With 3 towers I like to have a warrior placed in each leaving only a single warrior in my capital (a second if it can be afforded). I want 2-3 scouts out exploring at all times.

Second city placement
Without seeing more of the map I would look at heading either north or east. Most likely East.

 

[CXDamian]

Settling North 1 plot from start as well(after moving nw 1 for a little more map).

Tech-wise think I'm going mysticism, agriculture, animal husbandry, exploration, crafting. Producing 2 warriors, worker, elder council.

Scout is going to NE ruins, NE village, SE tower, then down to grab the SE village if one isn't in sight to the east.
Warrior moving SW ruins, then straight home.

btw, thanks for putting this together, can't wait

edit: Giddion: settler starts with mobility 1, mobility 2, and sentry 3 (4 move total, +3 line of sight)

 

[giddion]

It would be great to have a repository where people can upload their save games. Maybe have mandatory save points, like turn 50, 100, 200, 300... or something.... ??? They shouldn't be posted until then end maybe?

Then people can examine others strategy at certain points in the game and see how it has changed as the game progressed.

Edit: Thanks CXDamian, my settler should be able to make to my optimal starting position, 1NW, 1W, 1NW (across the river). I'm happy to destroy the northern tower later on for a mine or windmill, by this stage it should not be needed.

 

[The Tyrant]

I'm at work, so I haven't downloaded this yet. The way my morning is looking, I won't be able to download for another day yet (too much RL intrusion). Still, from looking at the SS...

I am thinking of settling two north, three west of the settler's current location. From the edges of the map, it looks like the main body of the landmass may be west or north west, and I want to move toward my enemies first, then backfill. Also, I like for my capital to have plenty of production and a bit of flexibility. That location retains fresh water bonus, allows enough farms to get me growing and then allows strong production for early units and critical wonders. Anything further east of that location just has too few mining possibilities for my tastes. By the time I have my first settler produced, I'll have done enough exploring to determine where my best science city should go. The main issue is that approaching barbs may have cover from hills. They shouldn't really get that close, though, as border cities should take the brunt of the barbs. If they do get that far in, I'll just meet them in the hills.

One thing that I have learned with FfH is to always make an exploratory move with the settler. With four movement points you can move in a triangle and, if you don't see anything better with those moves, you can settle back in place where you started, with a bit of exploration thrown in for free. What I see with the initial move NW will determine whether or not I actually do settle where I'm planning.

@Bringa - thank you for the direct link. I'm new to FfH and so far have been playing each race once, with vanilla FfH 2 023c. The direct link to the version of Smarter Orcs we'll need is much appreciated.

@Pandemonis - Sweet analysis. You thought of things (like river defense bonus, approach route of barbs, etc.) that I rarely see in pre-game discussions. If I wasn't going for the production ability from hills, your analysis would have me settling one tile north.

P.S. Three! towers for fogbusting. Wow. Should help reduce the spawn rate in the immediate area.

 

[Vorgen]

oh I just thought of something else. with 5 opponents on a small continents map even tho the barbs are raging they might not be raging for very long as space will run out pretty fast.

 

[Vulcans]

It would be great to have a repository where people can upload their save games. Maybe have mandatory save points, like turn 50, 100, 200, 300... or something.... ??? They shouldn't be posted until then end maybe?

Then people can examine others strategy at certain points in the game and see how it has changed as the game progressed.

yes, that sounds like a good idea. could someone set this up.

 

[tharg]

I think having a FFHOTM is great, I will cetianly try it although my record of in the regualr GOTM of satisfying the submission criteria is not that good.

Editing XML files seems a very bad idea whatever the reason. I imagine if you analyse the regular GOTM data you should get an idea of the percentgage drop in valid entries for each extra thing entrants have to do to set up the game up.

Looking forward to it.

 

[Vulcans]

With fair combat enabled, you can predict the outcome of most combats. A str 4 unit will always win against a strength 2 unit,

I'd also be quite happy with just Smarter Orcs. The randomized attack rolls have always been part of the combat system and personally I don't consider it a bug to be fixed, more an reworking of the combat rules that people might want to play.

I'm in this for the comparison of playing the same game with everyone, I'll play whatever people agree. That said, I've always found randomness a part of civ, and wouldn't vote for removing it (IE: I'd play "standard" Smarter Orcs, instead of combat-modified)

Yes, randomness is a part of CIV, and most other games. And everyone is playing under the same randomness. It’s all about pushing the odds a little more in your favor.

I also remember in Civ 2 and 3, there was a very slim chance that a weaker unit could defeat a stronger unit. That was all part of the game.

Do people stop playing poker, or backgammon because there is an aspect of randomness and luck? Maybe some of you guys are chess players, and don’t like an aspect of luck in the game.

That said, the luck with anomalies in fluke combats is a lot smaller then the variation of luck in a poker game. The bottom line is the skill level. (I doubt I could ever be a world champion poker of backgammon player even with lots of good luck)

MisterBenn: we never considered it a bug. That's the very reason our change is off by default. We try to alter the game mechanics as little as possible.

I think having a FFHOTM is great, I will cetianly try it although my record of in the regualr GOTM of satisfying the submission criteria is not that good.

Editing XML files seems a very bad idea whatever the reason. I imagine if you analyse the regular GOTM data you should get an idea of the percentgage drop in valid entries for each extra thing entrants have to do to set up the game up.

Looking forward to it.

Yes, I agree, adding extra complications will only lose users.
And I expect the casual players or not so computer literate players might be more reluctant to play if they have to download extra files and change files. While I’m sure it’s not as big deal for active players that are currently modifying their xml files to return it to the original state for a game.

As you said, we’d probably have more players if we play with the standard combat system.

For the sake of this game I think it would be best if we all play with the same un-modified xml file. Just smarter orcs and nothing more. That way we can all play under the same conditions.

Naturally we have no way of checking it to enforce that the files have not been tampered with or to stop people from re-loading or cheating in other ways(as visible in the cheeting poll), but then you won't be playing the same game as everyone else. Nobody can stop you if you wish to play a different game with different rules then the rest, just please be totally honest and acknowledge that it is a different game if you write about it in the forum. There are no prizes for this game, just the personal satisfaction of playing a good game and the fun of comparing notes with everyone else that played the same game under the same conditions.

On a side note, you need to look at statistics over a number of battles. Some people complain about losing a 90% battle, but statistically you’ve got 65% chance of losing a unit after 10 battles+heal if you only fight 90% battles. If you want fale safe defence then a reserve in a city is always a good idea. we're all in the same boat, dealing with the luck, and trying to push the odds in our favour.

 

[Mahatmajon]

So...is the game up somewhere? I've got my FFH and orcs all set now

 

[TeraHammer]

Crafting!

Crafting crafting crafting crafting!

 

[Pandemonis]

Yes, randomness is a part of CIV, and most other games. And everyone is playing under the same randomness. It’s all about pushing the odds a little more in your favor.
[...]

My random seed is bigger than your random seed.

 

[giddion]

I'm at work, so I haven't downloaded this yet. The way my morning is looking, I won't be able to download for another day yet (too much RL intrusion). Still, from looking at the SS...

I am thinking of settling two north, three west of the settler's current location. From the edges of the map, it looks like the main body of the landmass may be west or north west, and I want to move toward my enemies first, then backfill. Also, I like for my capital to have plenty of production and a bit of flexibility. That location retains fresh water bonus, allows enough farms to get me growing and then allows strong production for early units and critical wonders. Anything further east of that location just has too few mining possibilities for my tastes. By the time I have my first settler produced, I'll have done enough exploring to determine where my best science city should go. The main issue is that approaching barbs may have cover from hills. They shouldn't really get that close, though, as border cities should take the brunt of the barbs. If they do get that far in, I'll just meet them in the hills.

One thing that I have learned with FfH is to always make an exploratory move with the settler. With four movement points you can move in a triangle and, if you don't see anything better with those moves, you can settle back in place where you started, with a bit of exploration thrown in for free. What I see with the initial move NW will determine whether or not I actually do settle where I'm planning.

@Bringa - thank you for the direct link. I'm new to FfH and so far have been playing each race once, with vanilla FfH 2 023c. The direct link to the version of Smarter Orcs we'll need is much appreciated.

@Pandemonis - Sweet analysis. You thought of things (like river defense bonus, approach route of barbs, etc.) that I rarely see in pre-game discussions. If I wasn't going for the production ability from hills, your analysis would have me settling one tile north.

P.S. Three! towers for fogbusting. Wow. Should help reduce the spawn rate in the immediate area.

I believe you have selected the same starting city as me. It is hard to say for sure that it is best, as you move closer to that position it will become clearer.

I had considered a more easterly camp to force the barbs through the mountain pass making their approach predictable. But I didn't like the loss of tiles to desert and mountains. As you stated, I also like to push my boarder to my opponents and then back fill. This allows for the possibility of a training ground from the east with barbs.

It looks like the water to the south wraps around to the east. I also suspect there is water to the North West, that river needs to go somewhere. I am guessing any of my opponents will settle to the South West.

The river does provide a secure trade route and will factor in for my second city, which I am now feeling will be; 1E of the starting position or at least around the river there.

When will the map be posted?
I am guessing since I am in Australia, the date line may come into effect.

 

[Vulcans]

When will the map be posted?
I am guessing since I am in Australia, the date line may come into effect.

I plan to post the map around change of date European time.
so probably some time saturday morning in Australa.

Have a great weekend playing civ!

 

[Vorgen]

I'm planning to put my second city where you guys are thinking to put your first city. I want to see what happens when I make a tightly packed string of cities along that river.

 

[Bringa]

Well, then I will not play in competition with you guys. I literally cannot play FFH without the fair combat system anymore; I get frustrated and stop. I'll definitely try to play the map and report back how it went, but I'll be playing with fair combat.

 

[seZereth]

Well, then I will not play in competition with you guys. I literally cannot play FFH without the fair combat system anymore; I get frustrated and stop. I'll definitely try to play the map and report back how it went, but I'll be playing with fair combat.

"fair" is a nice word in this context, but well thats not point of the discussion

I think its not even a bad idea if you play with predictable combat, so people can compare the two styles. Perhaps you find some more people playing with rem. rand. to get a better statistic?
Would be interesting to see how things go.

 

[Bringa]

Yeah, I think so too actually. This could be a very nice large-scale test provided enough people are interested in it. I mean, this is Vulcans's decision, but we could track the results of people playing with fair combat as well and see if there's any sort of symptomatic difference.

Of course my calling this modification "fair" combat is PR spin--but we all do that, don't we?